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I don't think much....

Spartan II's have shields and are more agile.
Marines have their toughness and their accurate.
From range I would say at least 10 or 12 before they do enough damage for Marine to fall. If marine has Heavy Bolter then until he runs out of ammo.

In melee however they would never be able to kill a Marine, unless they are using Covenant plasma sword. Even then Astartes are more experienced in close combat then Spartans and would fall only if outnumbered in melee. ( remember that most basic melee Astartes unit is able to dodge even Banshee attacks in melee ).

Spartans could never kill Terminators, ever...
That also includes Grey Knights, Honor Guard, and Custodes.

Before Nerd rage I would like to add that Spartans could only kill Astartes with missile Launchers, Covenant Plasma and Snipers. And not every Spartan is Master "Ultramarine plot armor" Chief who stops Covenant and Flood and not even breaking a sweat.

Yeah I didn't want to get involved as I think it's going to be impossible to prove either way. I was just providing the "facts".

You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: Also, SM don't need sleep, food or anything like that.

Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me.
Space Marines don't need sleep for an extented period of time. They're not machines, they're biological beings, and even they have to sleep. Yes, they can be aware of their surroundings to an extent while doing so, but that really isnt the same as not needing sleep.
As to the idea that Space Marines don't need food, see the point I just made about sleep.

No, their armour recycles nutrients, it can supply them indefinitely. In nemesis, it was stated that they could suck moisture out of the floor of the desert without armour to meet their moisture demands.

They stay awake while they sleep. You couldn't even sneak up on a sleeping space marine. Also, 2 hours of half sleep is more than enough to keep a SM going for a week, plus their armour has all kinds of chemical injectors that can keep them awake much longer. They can go 2 weeks without sleep.

Also, some space marine ARE machines. See: Techmarine, dreadnought.

Which is what I meant by aware when asleep. And btw, it's not quite the same as being awake when asleep.
Also, those two examples are people either with biomechanical enhancements, or people in a mobile life support.
Furthermore, recycling nutrients to feed them back into an SM's system is still a form of consumption, so yeah, they still need food, i.e. nutrients to keep themselves alive.

Mjolnir armour and Power Armour are both biomechanical enhancements. And it is not a form of consumption, with the black carapace their armour becomes a part of themselves, so it is like nutrients cycling through your body. And PA and Mjolnir also both have mobile life support systems so...

And it really is. Being aware of your surroundings and able to act at any second... And they are partially conscious through the whole thing, their brain just sleeps in sections.


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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.

Stalker bolter.

And they are nothing like each other in terms of firepower.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.

I'm still looking for any background about bolters that gives some hard range, accuracy, or damage information. Haven't heard of or found any, though.

Personally? All I'm willing to say about bolters vs. Halo weaponry is;

1) They're quite high-powered, though exactly how high-powered in comparison to Halo weaponry we can't really tell.

2) They're probably much longer-ranged than most people are giving them credit for. Yes, the Space Marines TYPICALLY use bolters as a close-range assault weapon, which fits well with their common shock-trooper tactics, but it's made perfectly clear that a bolter is also capable of hitting and killing man-sized targets at long range, though how long is never stated. We can make some educated guesses, though.

Since the main killing power of a bolter shell seems to come from the explosive effect, they won't decrease in lethality very much even at extreme range (like a ballistic projectile does as velocity drops). Since they fire a big projectile they won't have to correct as much as ballistic weapons for atmospheric effects like wind; since the shell is self-propelled, bullet drop won't be as big an issue either; in essence, the curve the round follows will be flattened and extended by the rocket's thrust, making a bolter much more of a point-and-click weapon than a rifle is at long range. The thrust will also partially counteract the effects of drag, allowing the bolt to hold a steady velocity for as long as the fuel holds out; that certainly wouldn't be long, but then the shell could easily travel more than half a mile at constant velocity with only a single second's-worth of fuel, even if we're assuming that bolters have a muzzle velocity no higher than that of modern battle rifles. That basically means that the round won't even start to slow down until it's thousands of yards away from the firer, and that will dramatically extend the effective range. It will also mean that the bolt shell will impact much sooner than a normal bullet, allowing the Space Marine to correct his aim and fire again more rapidly if he missed.

The net effect of all that is to, essentially, make a bolter an EXCELLENT sniper weapon. It's got high killing power even against very distant targets, you don't have to correct nearly as much as you do with a ballistic weapon for environmental effects or distance, and the fast impact of the round means that, for a given range, a bolter-armed shooter can take more shots in the same period time than a rifle-armed shooter can.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that, even if we agree that the SRS-99 (the Halo sniper rifle) is powerful enough to punch through Power Armor, the bolter is STILL almost certainly a more effective long-range weapon. The SRS-99 fires a narrower and non-explosive round which is designed to penetrate straight and not tumble, meaning that even if it does punch through armor it won't do nearly as much damage as an exploding bolt shell; it is more affected by bullet drop and drag; and the rounds will take longer to strike, meaning it will take longer to place multiple aimed shots.

The only advantage a Spartan sniper armed with an SRS-99 would have over a Space Marine armed with a bolter would be camoflague, and even that would only be true in quite limited circumstances (The Space Marine is out in the open, while the Spartan is on a nearby forested hill, or some such thing). If the Spartan managed to pick their point of attack, they would probably get the first shot off. . . but they would be hard-pressed to kill the Space Marine in that one shot, and as soon as he was aware someone was out there, the Spartan would be in much more danger than the Space Marine.

One fact that is overlooked here:
Every Spartan II had some random, special ability. I depends exactly which Spartan II is being deployed, Linda would be one-shotting space marines, John literally could not die to the enemy because his ability was unbelievable luck .

People really over estimate the Marines. I blame our Spiritual Liege's teachings...

BeRzErKeR wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:You guys are aware that a bolter and the UNSC sniper are about equal in terms of fire power right? The bolter has the edge because it explodes when it penetrates. While the sniper has longer range.

I'm still looking for any background about bolters that gives some hard range, accuracy, or damage information. Haven't heard of or found any, though.

Personally? All I'm willing to say about bolters vs. Halo weaponry is;

1) They're quite high-powered, though exactly how high-powered in comparison to Halo weaponry we can't really tell.

2) They're probably much longer-ranged than most people are giving them credit for. Yes, the Space Marines TYPICALLY use bolters as a close-range assault weapon, which fits well with their common shock-trooper tactics, but it's made perfectly clear that a bolter is also capable of hitting and killing man-sized targets at long range, though how long is never stated. We can make some educated guesses, though.

Since the main killing power of a bolter shell seems to come from the explosive effect, they won't decrease in lethality very much even at extreme range (like a ballistic projectile does as velocity drops). Since they fire a big projectile they won't have to correct as much as ballistic weapons for atmospheric effects like wind; since the shell is self-propelled, bullet drop won't be as big an issue either; in essence, the curve the round follows will be flattened and extended by the rocket's thrust, making a bolter much more of a point-and-click weapon than a rifle is at long range. The thrust will also partially counteract the effects of drag, allowing the bolt to hold a steady velocity for as long as the fuel holds out; that certainly wouldn't be long, but then the shell could easily travel more than half a mile at constant velocity with only a single second's-worth of fuel, even if we're assuming that bolters have a muzzle velocity no higher than that of modern battle rifles. That basically means that the round won't even start to slow down until it's thousands of yards away from the firer, and that will dramatically extend the effective range. It will also mean that the bolt shell will impact much sooner than a normal bullet, allowing the Space Marine to correct his aim and fire again more rapidly if he missed.

The net effect of all that is to, essentially, make a bolter an EXCELLENT sniper weapon. It's got high killing power even against very distant targets, you don't have to correct nearly as much as you do with a ballistic weapon for environmental effects or distance, and the fast impact of the round means that, for a given range, a bolter-armed shooter can take more shots in the same period time than a rifle-armed shooter can.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that, even if we agree that the SRS-99 (the Halo sniper rifle) is powerful enough to punch through Power Armor, the bolter is STILL almost certainly a more effective long-range weapon. The SRS-99 fires a narrower and non-explosive round which is designed to penetrate straight and not tumble, meaning that even if it does punch through armor it won't do nearly as much damage as an exploding bolt shell; it is more affected by bullet drop and drag; and the rounds will take longer to strike, meaning it will take longer to place multiple aimed shots.

The only advantage a Spartan sniper armed with an SRS-99 would have over a Space Marine armed with a bolter would be camoflague, and even that would only be true in quite limited circumstances (The Space Marine is out in the open, while the Spartan is on a nearby forested hill, or some such thing). If the Spartan managed to pick their point of attack, they would probably get the first shot off. . . but they would be hard-pressed to kill the Space Marine in that one shot, and as soon as he was aware someone was out there, the Spartan would be in much more danger than the Space Marine.

As to the damage of the bolter, in the HH series there are examples of people becoming "pink mists" after getting hit by bolts.

Also, it is doubtful that the sniper would penetrate solid astartes plate. The land raider's 95mm ceramite armour is equivalent to 365mm steel, so as big as astartes plate looks, it is worth about 3.8x as much steel, which would make their ~1.5 inch armour about 140mm+ of steel, which is about as thick as a scorpion MBT's armour.


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Squidmanlolz wrote:One fact that is overlooked here:
Every Spartan II had some random, special ability. I depends exactly which Spartan II is being deployed, Linda would be one-shotting space marines, John literally could not die to the enemy because his ability was unbelievable luck .

Having very specific talent doesn't mean you have a special power...

And she would not be. A .50 caliber round would likely not fit through an astartes eye piece and wouldn't pierce anywhere else.

And John dies about 500 times every single play through of the campaign, his power is called respawning, which Titus also has.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:People really over estimate the Marines. I blame our Spiritual Liege's teachings...

Well the numbers for how much a marine is worth vary, with 10 being the lowest number of humans, and the highest in the hundreds. I think depending on the source, and the actual marine, it would be 30+, with line astartes getting about thirty, and heroes just not dying because of plot armour. Deathstrike missile? Bitch I'm Kaldor Draigo.

Noone on Dakka understands ballistics. Bolter round = huge. That means low penetration. Sniper round = significantly smaller. It'll clear through ceramite. Give the SM kraken rounds and they'd be equivalent.

TheCaptain wrote:Noone on Dakka understands ballistics. Bolter round = huge. That means low penetration. Sniper round = significantly smaller. It'll clear through ceramite. Give the SM kraken rounds and they'd be equivalent.

We understand ballistics and bolter bullet is subsonic projectile who explodes with great strength when it hit its target.
What would happened to Spartan if he get hit by several of those in 2 seconds? He would be as dead as Chaos Daemons facing Terminator Grey knights.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.

Some thing I forgot to address...

Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.

I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,

They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.

OMG look some sneakies are sneakin up on da spess marines and it also even happens to the SW .

An entire Hive Fleet snook up on them for crying out loud. How didn't they notice it?

Again using Eldar, who are renound for being sneaky to prove that point. I can't sneak up on my cat, what makes you think Spartans can sneak up on Marines? More likely to happen the other way round, especially with Shrike around.

To state the obvious, don't expect many people on this forum, who are either more inclined favor 40k or know more about 40k fluff to be unbiased.

Just saying.

Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

Nope. Power Armor is said to also increase the wearer's strength and agility. Which is why you could see SoB doing this



As opposed to having to do this

EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

Neither.

Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

Neither.

Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

I knew there was a certain level of Genetics in the SPARTAN program, never new what/why.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

Neither.

Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.

Could you imagine the first person to test it? He moves his arm, suit moves to much, breaks it, and his reaction to pain just makes it worse as each jerk is amplified. Crazy stuff. At least normal humans can ware power armor.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well space marines have been shown to be able to punch themselves handhold in concrete and use that to climb, so in terms of maneuver that more than makes up for the disparity in jumping ability.

And Spartans have been shown to dig their fingers into the armoured frames of dropships to provide themselves handholds. Whats your point?

Kindof an unfair comparison if you think about it. Spartan II's were humanities very first successful super soldiers in the Halo universe. The power armour and marines you all are describing are the current versions. Show me a comparison between a spartan II and a Crusade Era SM in Thunder-Variant Power armour. Those are on equal levels of development.

Grey elder wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: And there is no sneaking up on a space marine.

Some thing I forgot to address...

Yeah, because it doesn't happen, right? Ohwaityesitdoes.
There are tonnes of things capable of sneaking up on a Space Marine. Try not to overestimate their abilities.

I have yet to read an account of anything getting th drop on a space marine,

They're senses, training, and armour senses all give them enormous ability. it would be like an elephant trying to sneak up on a normal human.

OMG look some sneakies are sneakin up on da spess marines and it also even happens to the SW .

Except no one snuck up on them. The stealthy warp spider couldn't even sneak up on the HB marine over the sound of his massive weapon.

They weren't snuck up on by anyone. The only sneaking up that happened was the dreadnought surprising the Howling Banshees.

I bet in the next SM codex, we'll have ninja dreadnaughts.
To be used with Raven Guard, preferably.

TheCaptain wrote:Noone on Dakka understands ballistics. Bolter round = huge. That means low penetration. Sniper round = significantly smaller. It'll clear through ceramite. Give the SM kraken rounds and they'd be equivalent.

The incredible speed, momentum and diamond tip do absolutely NOTHING for penetration right?

If anything, bolters would have more penetrations because the tip of all their weapons and ammo is monomolecular tipped.




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Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well space marines have been shown to be able to punch themselves handhold in concrete and use that to climb, so in terms of maneuver that more than makes up for the disparity in jumping ability.

And Spartans have been shown to dig their fingers into the armoured frames of dropships to provide themselves handholds. Whats your point?

And Barsabbas in Blood Gorgons demolished an entire building, and was buried miles below the ground and dug his way to the surface.

Isn't there already a a bunch of topics on this?

Threads like this should be closed immediately...

Or moved to Dakka General Discussion...

Or a new forum called "Fanwank Fights".

First, about the bolter versus other weapons. While the bolter is great, keep in mind the size of the weapon is still the limiting factor of how powerful it is. Thus, if the bolter is the same size as the sniper rifle ammo-wise, your damage is the same.

I mean, both use chemical compounds to deliver energy to their target. The more propellent of the sniper rifle equates to more kinetic energy, but the total energy of both systems would be equal. Now, we know that bolters have a kinetic energy component, but adding more kinetic energy to a bolter takes away from the explosive energy. And vice versa, more explosive energy equals less kinetic energy and slower projectile speed to hit mobile targets at range.

My 2cents on the issue is that space marines are superior thanks to magic technology. The halo spartan uses technology that could actually exist even if implausible--no warp for example. Thus, all other comparisons eventually get to the point where Space marines compare a magic material, like adamantium. Since such a component doesnt exist, even if the Spartan COULD compete against it the Space Marine just counters with 'Nuh-uh, cause its unbreakable as it ingnores the physics of the material world!'

(PS, I dont know enough Halo lore, just the games, so the lack of 'magic' technology on the Halo side is from my observations)

DevianID wrote: The more propellent of the sniper rifle equates to more kinetic energy, but the total energy of both systems would be equal. )

...The sniper wouldn't have more propellant or anything like it. Also, the bolt being tipped with diamond means it is unlikely to deform on impact, unlike the softer metals of a sniper rifle.

The bolt would have more momentum, because mass x velocity=momentum. It weighs more and would likely go faster after it's second stage kicks in. Adding an explosive charge is nothing but overkill.

Manually Appended Next Post

Also, the Space Marine armour is less magical than mjolnir, because with PA the strength boost comes from pneumatics and false muscles, Mjolnir has nothing of the sort, as is immediately visible looking at it. In fact, most of the armor is mesh, it looks to be closer to on par with FW armour, other than the shields and magical strength boosting.

Diamonds are hard on the scale of 'can I scratch something.' Diamonds on the 'Will I deform in a meaningful way at high energies' perform differently than you would think--unless you know something I dont know.

As for your momentum, momemtum is not that important compared to energy. And energy is mv^2, so a sniper rifle that has more speed with the same mass would have more energy.

Also, if the bolter is the same size as the sniper rifle, it can not be both heavier and go faster. Propellent = speed = less mass. Explosives = less kinetic energy = more explosive energy. The total amount of energy would be the same. So again, if the bolter and the sniper rifle ammo is the same size/weight, and both use real world physics, neither could be better than each other on a shell vs shell comparrison.

DevianID wrote:Diamonds are hard on the scale of 'can I scratch something.' Diamonds on the 'Will I deform in a meaningful way at high energies' perform differently than you would think--unless you know something I dont know.

As for your momentum, momemtum is not that important compared to energy. And energy is mv^2, so a sniper rifle that has more speed with the same mass would have more energy.

Also, if the bolter is the same size as the sniper rifle, it can not be both heavier and go faster. Propellent = speed = less mass. Explosives = less kinetic energy = more explosive energy. The total amount of energy would be the same. So again, if the bolter and the sniper rifle ammo is the same size/weight, and both use real world physics, neither could be better than each other on a shell vs shell comparrison.

Well diamons won't deform, they can shatter which would just make the spartans get diamond shards in his face before the bolt explodes.

The sniper wouldn't have more speed OR more mass.

And the bolts use more efficient propellant than simple black powder, so they don't take any noticeable amount of weight loss when they fire. This means they go EXTREMELY fast without losing a considerable amount of massive, and retain their inherent explosive charge.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

Neither.

Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.

Could you imagine the first person to test it? He moves his arm, suit moves to much, breaks it, and his reaction to pain just makes it worse as each jerk is amplified. Crazy stuff. At least normal humans can ware power armor.

MJOLNIR armor was eventually modified for use by regular human soldiers with only mild augmentation: SPARTAN III, it was relatively successful because less soldiers were lost during a shorter augmentation/training program. Also SPARTAN IIIs were arguably more devoted against the Covenant, most being orphans because of the human-covie war. They mass produced them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg_A5KpZzgg