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Spartan threads are up there with 'How will 40k end?' on the annoyingness scale.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

EvilTim wrote:Going to previously discussed point of Power Armour vs MJOLNIR;

Isn't Power Armour 'Just armour' (Well, "powered"), but MJOLNIR supposed to amplify?

I.e. a Marine without armour is still as strong, but a Spartan II without armour has "Human" level strength?

Maybe wrong, my "Tech-Fluff" for both ain't so strong.

Neither.

Power Armor does indeed increase the wearer's strength; and so does MJOLNIR armor. In fact, one of the reasons that the SPARTAN program included biological enhancement was that a normal human couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor; it reacts to the wearer's motions by moving with them, and if a normal human was wearing it it tended to break bones or tear muscles by moving too fast and too powerfully.

Could you imagine the first person to test it? He moves his arm, suit moves to much, breaks it, and his reaction to pain just makes it worse as each jerk is amplified. Crazy stuff. At least normal humans can ware power armor.

MJOLNIR armor was eventually modified for use by regular human soldiers with only mild augmentation: SPARTAN III, it was relatively successful because less soldiers were lost during a shorter augmentation/training program. Also SPARTAN IIIs were arguably more devoted against the Covenant, most being orphans because of the human-covie war. They mass produced them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg_A5KpZzgg

IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)

im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)

Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?

Luke_Prowler wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)

Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?

Yes.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)

Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?

Yes.

The growth process and training take a few years. They are kept in the scouts to get experience and are AM, devastators before tac squad to make them balanced in their way of war.

Not this again....

It all depends on the combination of equipment and experience. Eliminating those two variables and putting a marine just out of training against his spartan counterpart, with no equipment 1 on 1 a marine would most likely win, but he would be badly injured at the end of the fight.

These threads have a tendency of reminding me of such hotly debates issues such as "what if Batman would fight Chuck Norris".

I like the added use of"realism" people keep talking about. Well realistically this could do this and that does this. LOL

There is no way realistically discuss any of this since the physics even of the weapons is not real nor their equipment. Tey cant even predict a scenario of 10 Navy Seals vs 10 Spetnaz in the battle simulations without real weapon data and mission scenario. Last I checked you cant bring a bolter or spartan laser to the range.

Next up Ronald Macdonald vs Santa Claus! Battle of the Red!

(Sorry for so much txt, but here is my in depth analysis)

In a cage match fight with 'standard' wargear, I think of it this way:
In the 40k universe, Spartans would roughly compare to an Assasin.
Lightning Reflexes: 4+ invul. that makes them so 'lucky.'
Synskin: The FNP USR given from their armor but only on a 6; Spartans can take some intense punishment,ie. survive RE-ENTRY.
ArmSv: Due to the lack of many centuries long of a service record like SM PA, it only is a 4+ Sv; not as relatively advanced.
I: Spatans would be way quicker than their bulkier descendants; not to mention, they would most likely be Relentless(Good luck with that one pistol shot Brother Space Marine, hope it hits)
W: They would more likely have 1 BC of reflexes.
BS,WS: I'm not sure whether this should be equal or a little higher strictly because Spartans are the best of the best Marines; all things considered, SM would have decades longer in service= more exp in battle.

Now for weaponry(Oh boy, which sci-fi physics will win?)
To get a good comparison, you have to compare similar weapons(come on folks):
Power Sword vs... Cov power sword (energy sword)- Similar no ArmSv when hit but I think the energy sword should confer an init. bonus to charge from range like it does in game
TH vs Grav Hammer- As easy as it is to dodge a Chieftan with a grav ham, its another to dodge a Spartan. Thus a hammer wielding Spartan would NOT hit at init 1
Bolt____ vs ...?- There really is no comparable weapon in the Halo universe to compare to any bolter weaponry, thought the needle would be the closest. Guided rounds that turn the target into a 'pink mist' after enough explode in the target (hence the H3 achieve).
Assault cannon vs Chain turret- Well, SM can't has so Spartans win this category. But strict comparison I couldn't say due to lack of knowledge on assault can. fluff.
Lascannon vs Sprtn Laser- again Relentless spartan with even a str. 8 las cannon> stationary SM w/ str. 9 one
Melta weapons win. Nuff said
Autocannon = Gauss rifle-explosive element.
Halo flamer=Heavy flamer.
ML vs SPNKr- equal blast dmg, but SPNKr has no AP missle. Still may win with Relentless
Sniper vs SR99- Halo's SR99 is at heart an anti material rifle, meaning its not ap6, but around 4 or 5 instead due to 1shots on most Cov infantry armor. Though I would give it the shield breaker element from exitus weapons.
Plans handguns- thought Halo plasma's overheat, its not enough to kill due to inferior power. Though they may be around str.5~6, plas pistols would confer an immediate crew stunned - they can still shoot.Maybe ap4~5 because its plasma
Halo grenades vs IG GrenadeLauncher- Due to pitcher status of Spartns, these should have the same profile EXCEPT plasma grenades~=melta bombs.
Cyclone ML ~= ML Warthog
Assault rifle would be str 3 AP 4 due to bullet penetration physics.
Battle rifle/ dmr/ magnum would be str4 AP 4
Plascannon would compare to fuel rod gun - gets hot rule

Without getting into vehicles(I might do that later), I would say that in the end it comes down to tactics and dice rolls but due to a few special rules and invul saves (which may need minor balancing but are pretty fair IMO), I'd say 1v1 infantry the Spartan takes a W/L of 3/2 because of the aura of sheer luck that is common to all Spartans. In the end, Spartans (in a sick, twisted combi Halo-40k universe) paved the way for their super-future Marine Brothers .

I shall say it for the second time today, NEVER compare 40k FLUFF with the 40k TABLETOP GAME. They are SEPARATE and should be treated as such, trying to apply game "stats" with the fluff is useless except in the very loosest sense.

Now I wouldn't consider myself more knowledgeable in theoretical physics than any other average college engineers, but to understand something, you have to put it in tangible terms. We simply cant comprehend 4 deminsions because we are 3d beings living in 4 demensions, just as a 2d stickman on paper couldn't comprehend 3d. Put him on a mobius strip and as he moves forward, he is moving in the 3rd dimension though he is unaware of the fact, just as we are unaware of the 4th dimension.

All I did was make tangible stats IN game to compare them relatively OUT of game, which we certainly can't comprehend the physics of

juraigamer wrote:A marine could kill as many spartans as he could that didn't have the sword, so long as the marine kept passing his armor saves.

A spartan could pick off as many marines as he wanted form range, so long as he always let his shield regen and they failed their armor saves.

Video Game Space Marines have armor regen too.

Sopoko wrote:(Sorry for so much txt, but here is my in depth analysis)

In a cage match fight with 'standard' wargear, I think of it this way:
In the 40k universe, Spartans would roughly compare to an Assasin.

HA HA HA NO.

Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field. Comparing them to an assassin is, frankly, ridiculous.

Standard weapon, for those comparing a bolter to a Halo Sniper, is an assault rifle that I don't care to remember the name of for a spartan. Let's see them outdo a marine with one of those. It would be like an airsoft gun.

On a serious note, a Spartan, with his shields, etc, is more comparable to a Vet guardsman with Carapace armour and a refractor field. I'm not even joking, a Marine would use the remnants of the Spartan for sport later. The point of a Spartan surviving re entry is an odd one, and doesn't comply with physics. (In Red Fury a Marine is dropped from a stupid height and dies, and a Spartan with markedly less armour, WITHOUT ARMOUR LOCK, can survive re-entry? Yeah... makes total sense).

In other news, Come at me Halo fanboys.

liquidjoshi wrote: (In Red Fury a Marine is dropped from a stupid height and dies, and a Spartan with markedly less armour, WITHOUT ARMOUR LOCK, can survive re-entry? Yeah... makes total sense).

Oh my god you said the "S" word. That's a huge no-no.

Also, Spartans are relentless with missile launchers and lascannons. Marines are not. They also got that cheesy bio-heal-aura-ball-thing that's definitely gives them FnP. Relentless w/ lascannons with FnP with 2++ armor lock (pffttt so what if you can't shoot. Its a 2++ to allocate to) > a tactical squad.
Can they use covenant weapons? Covenant plasma rifles don't seem to kill you when they over-heat which is real nice. Also, non-initiative 1 thunderhammer. Nuff said.

im2randomghgh wrote: And Barsabbas in Blood Gorgons demolished an entire building, and was buried miles below the ground and dug his way to the surface.

And both Noble 6 and the Master Chief crashed from orbit into a planet,. in nothing but their armour. Like a drop pod insertion, without the drop pod.

My point?

Spartans are just as tough and strong as Astartes. At least.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Sopoko wrote:(Sorry for so much txt, but here is my in depth analysis)

In a cage match fight with 'standard' wargear, I think of it this way:
In the 40k universe, Spartans would roughly compare to an Assasin.

HA HA HA NO.

Well hey, I said roughly. All I was comparing there was relative stats, not relative fluff, but good point. That's why I left some stuff open like the BS/ws stuff cause even I wouldn't say that a Spartan IS basically an assassin they would only be comparable in armor & a little in reflexes, but you get the general idea.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the Space Marine armour is less magical than mjolnir, because with PA the strength boost comes from pneumatics and false muscles, Mjolnir has nothing of the sort, as is immediately visible looking at it. In fact, most of the armor is mesh, it looks to be closer to on par with FW armour, other than the shields and magical strength boosting.

Demonstrably false. Mjolnir armour provides at least an equal boost to strength and reaction times as Astartes plate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liquidjoshi wrote:
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field. Comparing them to an assassin is, frankly, ridiculous

lol, not quite.

Mjolnir armour would give a 2+ armour save, the shielding would give a 2++ save, and both could be taken, rather than one. Spartans would be Fleet, WS5, BS6, S4, T5, W2, I6, A2 and LD10 with feel no pain, relentless, move through cover, infiltrate, scout, stealth...

terranarc wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote: (In Red Fury a Marine is dropped from a stupid height and dies, and a Spartan with markedly less armour, WITHOUT ARMOUR LOCK, can survive re-entry? Yeah... makes total sense).

Oh my god you said the "S" word. That's a huge no-no.

Also, Spartans are relentless with missile launchers and lascannons. Marines are not. They also got that cheesy bio-heal-aura-ball-thing that's definitely gives them FnP. Relentless w/ lascannons with FnP with 2++ armor lock (pffttt so what if you can't shoot. Its a 2++ to allocate to) > a tactical squad.
Can they use covenant weapons? Covenant plasma rifles don't seem to kill you when they over-heat which is real nice. Also, non-initiative 1 thunderhammer. Nuff said.

Except there is literally no reason for them to be relentless. At all. Really, calling them the equivalent of stormtroopers would be selling storm troopers short.

If I were to give them in game stats, it would be like:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld 8 Sv 4+/6++

Spartan Assault rifle: S3 ap- (auto gun basically) assault 2

Spartan Sniper rifle: S 4 ap 4 heavy 1

Spartan Laser: S 6 ap 3 heavy 1

Special Rule: Scarvenger: Can pick up the weapons on enemy models killed in assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the Space Marine armour is less magical than mjolnir, because with PA the strength boost comes from pneumatics and false muscles, Mjolnir has nothing of the sort, as is immediately visible looking at it. In fact, most of the armor is mesh, it looks to be closer to on par with FW armour, other than the shields and magical strength boosting.

Demonstrably false. Mjolnir armour provides at least an equal boost to strength and reaction times as Astartes plate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liquidjoshi wrote:
Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field. Comparing them to an assassin is, frankly, ridiculous

lol, not quite.

Mjolnir armour would give a 2+ armour save, the shielding would give a 2++ save, and both could be taken, rather than one. Spartans would be Fleet, WS5, BS6, S4, T5, W2, I6, A2 and LD10 with feel no pain, relentless, move through cover, infiltrate, scout, stealth...

At the first point, not even close, and either way that has nothing to do with my point where there is no visible fiber bundle muscles on mjolnir. If Spartans had the muscle mass of space marines, they wouldn't go flying dozens of metres through the air as soon as a hunter looks at them wrong, and being hit by vehicles would be a liability to the vehicles.

At the second part, are you joking? So you think they are more skilled in h2h than Sanguinary guard, better at shooting than legendary heroes of the space marine like kaldor draigo who have stabilizers built into their armour and have been alive since the halo universe was still in the middle ages, As strong as terminators, as tougher than a daemon prince or Sanguinor, can take as many wounds as a paladin (twice a normal marine?!?) have reflexes better than Eldar, who's reflexes are so blindingly fast it's ridiculous and on par with daemonettes (who move so fast you literally cannot see them) as many attacks as a seasoned veteran sergeant of an assault marine squad and leader ship on par with Kaldor Draigo and Lysander? With rules that don't even make sense for them? Like move through cover and FNP and Relentless...what's next, making them monstrous creatures? You are just getting silly.

im2randomghgh wrote: Except there is literally no reason for them to be relentless. At all. Really, calling them the equivalent of stormtroopers would be selling storm troopers short.

If I were to give them in game stats, it would be like:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld 8 Sv 4+/6++

Spartan Assault rifle: S3 ap- (auto gun basically) assault 2

Spartan Sniper rifle: S 4 ap 4 heavy 1

Spartan Laser: S 6 ap 3 heavy 1

Special Rule: Scarvenger: Can pick up the weapons on enemy models killed in assault.

Oh, I'm sorry. I presumed you were actually familiar with the Halo background.

Well, let me put it this way. Spartans can run really fast, and can fire heavy weapons at peak efficiency while doing so. So, that would qualify them for the relentless rule.

Anyway, have fun with your trolling, I'm off to play some Halo!

Of course they should be relentless, they can fire whatever they have out running with the speed of a Kenyan. And it looks like some folks are taking the unit comparisons too seriously, we are just saying, 'think about this unit, they are like this but with/without these rules.' Again not that he IS a STrooper, but you gotta give a Spartan SOME credit, he at least has bs4 like a Sm. Bs3 and I4 is more like an ODST.

Edit:
(What Kaldor said )

im2randomghgh wrote:At the first point, not even close, and either way that has nothing to do with my point where there is no visible fiber bundle muscles on mjolnir. If Spartans had the muscle mass of space marines, they wouldn't go flying dozens of metres through the air as soon as a hunter looks at them wrong, and being hit by vehicles would be a liability to the vehicles.

Doesn't matter if you can't see it, it's there.

At the second part, are you joking? So you think they are more skilled in h2h than Sanguinary guard, better at shooting than legendary heroes of the space marine like kaldor draigo who have stabilizers built into their armour and have been alive since the halo universe was still in the middle ages, As strong as terminators, as tougher than a daemon prince or Sanguinor, can take as many wounds as a paladin (twice a normal marine?!?) have reflexes better than Eldar, who's reflexes are so blindingly fast it's ridiculous and on par with daemonettes (who move so fast you literally cannot see them) as many attacks as a seasoned veteran sergeant of an assault marine squad and leader ship on par with Kaldor Draigo and Lysander? With rules that don't even make sense for them? Like move through cover and FNP and Relentless...what's next, making them monstrous creatures? You are just getting silly.

Um, yes to all of it. Because they are. Have you read any of the accompanying literature? Spartans are quite capable of slapping incoming missiles out of the air, punching sentinel equivalents to the ground, shot-putting drop pods, etc etc. They are highly trained and experienced elite special ops troopers. Move through cover makes total sense, and their regenerative abilities, and built in trauma units more than cover them for FNP.

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: Except there is literally no reason for them to be relentless. At all. Really, calling them the equivalent of stormtroopers would be selling storm troopers short.

If I were to give them in game stats, it would be like:

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld 8 Sv 4+/6++

Spartan Assault rifle: S3 ap- (auto gun basically) assault 2

Spartan Sniper rifle: S 4 ap 4 heavy 1

Spartan Laser: S 6 ap 3 heavy 1

Special Rule: Scarvenger: Can pick up the weapons on enemy models killed in assault.

Oh, I'm sorry. I presumed you were actually familiar with the Halo background.

Well, let me put it this way. Spartans can run really fast, and can fire heavy weapons at peak efficiency while doing so. So, that would qualify them for the relentless rule.

Anyway, have fun with your trolling, I'm off to play some Halo!

Except spartans don't run ever in halo, and in reach are shown to be able to sprint for actually LESS time that normal humans whereas marines can run for DAYS and also, in case you didn't notice, Spartans can barely walk when holding heavy weapons.

You 'barely walk' faster than running humans

im2randomghgh wrote:Except spartans don't run ever in halo, and in reach are shown to be able to sprint for actually LESS time that normal humans whereas marines can run for DAYS and also, in case you didn't notice, Spartans can barely walk when holding heavy weapons.

Like I said, read the accompanying literature. They sprint, much faster than humans, and can shoot the spots of a die while doing it. With a sniper rifle or missile launcher to boot. They certainly don't have to stand still to fire it like a Marine does.

Really, why not educate yourself on both sides of the debate before jumping in?

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:At the first point, not even close, and either way that has nothing to do with my point where there is no visible fiber bundle muscles on mjolnir. If Spartans had the muscle mass of space marines, they wouldn't go flying dozens of metres through the air as soon as a hunter looks at them wrong, and being hit by vehicles would be a liability to the vehicles.

Doesn't matter if you can't see it, it's there.

At the second part, are you joking? So you think they are more skilled in h2h than Sanguinary guard, better at shooting than legendary heroes of the space marine like kaldor draigo who have stabilizers built into their armour and have been alive since the halo universe was still in the middle ages, As strong as terminators, as tougher than a daemon prince or Sanguinor, can take as many wounds as a paladin (twice a normal marine?!?) have reflexes better than Eldar, who's reflexes are so blindingly fast it's ridiculous and on par with daemonettes (who move so fast you literally cannot see them) as many attacks as a seasoned veteran sergeant of an assault marine squad and leader ship on par with Kaldor Draigo and Lysander? With rules that don't even make sense for them? Like move through cover and FNP and Relentless...what's next, making them monstrous creatures? You are just getting silly.

Um, yes to all of it. Because they are. Have you read any of the accompanying literature? Spartans are quite capable of slapping incoming missiles out of the air, punching sentinel equivalents to the ground, shot-putting drop pods, etc etc. They are highly trained and experienced elite special ops troopers. Move through cover makes total sense, and their regenerative abilities, and built in trauma units more than cover them for FNP.

1. I am saying that background wise their suits are made of hand-waivium.

2. They really aren't. Do you KNOW how tough a daemon prince is? IN the fluff a daemon prince being summoned usually means that entire systems will be lost, and they usually can't be banished at ALL without special rituals and intervention by the Grey Knights, and you think that they should be tougher than that by MORE than that is tougher than a marine? Are you [i[]insane[/i]? Their regenerative abilities are NOTHING compared to that of marines. Larraman cells are exactly THE most effective way to stop a wound. The speed at which they regenerate their health when you give them the larraman cells bonus in the SM game is about on par with the fluff, whereas in the games spartan health doesn't go up at all without med-kits. They would have less experience than most IG troopers, and would be half as brave not having faced the horrors the guard has. Flood is nothing at all next to halo.

IN fact, in the game they are shown to be awful at melee, only using it as a last resort. They are more likely to have WS2. A space marine in unarmed combat with a Spartan would be the spartans hitting the space marine and it doing nothing and then the space marine tearing the spartans spine out his throat.

And HOW does move through cover make sense? A rule to represent the a monstrous creature ( there really aren't anyhtings like that in halo) simply tossing aside small buildings and gak to plow through everything...

They really are just awful. that is why like four shots from a plasma rifle can kill one.

Storm troopers are experienced and highly trained (better trained) troopers too, with many having live hundreds of years due to life extensions, with levels of experience that makes spartans laughable. A single hot shot bolt to the head would end a spartan.

And there is not one example of any spartan showing exemplary leadership skills in all the halo fluff, not one. I have read every novel, spent lots of time on their wiki and played all the games.

Seriously though, think about it, you're making them tougher than SANGUINOR, who happens to be an incarnation of a PRIMARCH, you know, an almost-god?

Now about wounds, a wound represents something like having your head blown off or equivalent, and you think a spartan gets that twice? Paladins only have them because you know they have these psychic powers that kind of let them warp space time, everything that has multi-wounds has some kind of reason for it, unlike spartans. Spartans also have zero redundancy above normal humans, so they definately don't deserve T4. Orks only have T4 because you can cut their head off and sew it on to a new bodt and it'll work as an example of their redundancy.

Epic troll makes me rage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sopoko wrote:You 'barely walk' faster than running humans

Have you ever played halo? They hobble with turrets.

liquidjoshi wrote:

HA HA HA NO.

Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field.

I wasn't aware that vet guardsmans move so fast that hypersonic bullets move in slow motion to their perceptions and wear armor that allows them to fall from space through the atmosphere and into the ground without suffering major damage.

No.

Lynata wrote:"what if Batman would fight Chuck Norris".

Chuck Norris would win?
Batmen have the money but Chuck puch Earth down when he do push-ups.

BlaxicanX wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:

HA HA HA NO.

Not in the slightest. Spartans compare roughly to a Vet guardsman with a refractor field.

I wasn't aware that vet guardsmans move so fast that hypersonic bullets move in slow motion to their perceptions and wear armor that allows them to fall from space through the atmosphere and into the ground without suffering major damage.

No.

Actually, in the books during their drop about half the spartans died while dropping and most of the other were crippled.

And the most important question of them all:

Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life.
So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.

Brother Coa wrote:And the most important question of them all:

Why the hell would Space Marine fighting SPARTANS?
They are both fighting for Mankind survival, they are in fact brothers in arms.
And brothers in arms are brothers for life.
So they should be side by side, fighting off the alien menace. Not battling against each other just for our amusement.

Because they do not acknowledge the Emperor of man as their ruler? Because they use armour that does not conform to mechanicus teachings, therefore making them heretics?

Because the space marines feel like it?

Because they are bored and need a warm up for the main event of killing hundreds upon hundreds upon thousands of orks/daemons/cultists.