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 Galas wrote:
The think I don't know is why was Brann warging so much. What did the crows accomplish?

i assume it will be explained in latter episodes.

Why does he do anything - why is he even in it any more? It may not be explained or maybe its another thing thats important behind the scenes.

Maybe he is off to see Malificent.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

Why did all of the White Walkers also die when the Night King got killed? Aren't they different from the undead?

Because

 Galas wrote:
The think I don't know is why was Brann warging so much. What did the crows accomplish?

i assume it will be explained in latter episodes.

I suspect he was piloting The Ravens to other houses, heralding their victory, and basically smearing Cersei as a black hearted coward, who refused to come to anyone else's aid.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The think I don't know is why was Brann warging so much. What did the crows accomplish?

i assume it will be explained in latter episodes.

Why does he do anything - why is he even in it any more? It may not be explained or maybe its another thing thats important behind the scenes.

Honestly, I think it's a coin flip as to whether it's meaningful or not. I won't be surprised if it's explained, and won't be surprised if it never comes up again.

I'm calling it now. They will keep all the major characters alive for spinoffs and movies. I wouldn't be surprised if the show ends on a cliff hanger so they can sell people more cliches.

 Galas wrote:
The think I don't know is why was Brann warging so much. What did the crows accomplish?

He was watching Endgame.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm calling it now. They will keep all the major characters alive for spinoffs and movies. I wouldn't be surprised if the show ends on a cliff hanger so they can sell people more cliches.

I'm not sure if they're doing that exactly, but I'm sure that franchise considerations are part of their thinking. With the ratings GoT does, it has to be. GRRM says his ending is bittersweet, but I'll call it right now that the showrunners lean their ending pretty heavily toward the 'sweet' side. They don't want people walking away from GoT feeling down when they have future series to sell.

Commodus Leitdorf wrote:It is truly sad they could not have gotten a bunch of warhammer player to fix their deployment

Or more likely the the Winterfell set could not fit the Trebuchets in the court yard as it's a small set and...well, they had all these trebuchets lying around and want to use them.

That's probably the truth, but that's not exactly an immersive reason in the context of the show: "the showrunners have these in stock, so lets throw them in there and then functionally throw them away". They way they were deployed it would have made more sense to simply not have them at all.

You don't exactly have to be an experienced, battle-hardened general to realize that the things that can fire hundreds of yards but are defenseless against melee shouldn't be right up on the front line, right? And someone else pointed out, well, they don't have any experienced commanders - they're all green boys and old men by now, which is true in terms of fighters... but they do have one of the most experienced battle commanders in the 7 kingdoms - Jaime Lannister. Jaime is no stranger to the ways of siegecraft, and while Tyrion Lannister has less experience in the real-world applications of it, he's surely going to be a better armchair commander than what we saw.

Some of the stuff that people are complaining about being "bad planning" is actually just misapplined against what they fight. The way the Dothraki charged has worked pretty well against conventional armies, and I don't think anyone has yet seen the way the wights actually attacked this time, as a literal wave of meat and bone. Even with stuff like Hardhome and the Fist and the Wight Heist, they didn't come this fast or this heavy. Stuff like the fire trench collapsing under the weight of the bodies, etc, that is another unknown unknown due to the prior thing.

But the trebuchet placement? I think this is a totally fair nitpick - the time they spent building the siege engines could have better been spent building other defenses they way they were deployed. I also think that you can think it was a great episode in one of the greatest TV shows of all time and still pick apart things that don't make sense. It's not take it or leave it.

Hollow wrote:John becomes the Night King (Would explain the whole ICE and FIRE thing and how the NK is immune to flame) and Bran rebuilds the wall.

Except Jon snow is totally not at all immune from fire. He's been wearing gloves since s01e08 when he burned the gak out of his hand throwing that lantern on the wight at Castle Black. Remember he couldn't use Longclaw for a few episodes after Commander Mormont gave it to him?

AduroT wrote:The Night King might not be “immune” to dragon fire. The after episode interview seemed to imply he could only be killed next to the tree as that was where he was created.

That's pretty good speculation. Unfortunately I think we're never really going to find out, and that's a bit of a bummer.

Momotaro wrote:Was that poor Alys Karstark heading to the Godswood with Theon at the beginning? Three northern houses snuffed out in three episodes?

I would have hoped they could have at least spared a moment to have shown that, if that had happened. I'm going to say "no" but who knows, I saw lots of speculation she indeed was with Theon as you said.

DIdn't the Night King snuff out fire just by walking near it during that episode where they tried to capture a zombie? I'm pretty sure he can just protect himself with a wave of cold to snuff out fire before it gets to him.

The fact that the Dothraki aren't experienced at fighting undead is irrelevant; charging across a snowy wasteland in the dead of night when you can't see that far ahead of you is stupid against human enemies as well.

I think the Dothraki charge was mostly about the kewl moments it created. The rest is probably the showrunners seeing them as disposable and wanting them to be disposed of to streamline the endgame. This kind of thinking is already in their playbook.

It's pretty much insane the way that the show built up both the Dothraki AND their crossing water problem FOR YEARS to then dispose of an entire horde in a single, asinine charge.

But there's the show with GRRM material, and the show without. Acknowledging that it's a different show now and an alt-universe version of the book story is how I'm coming to terms with it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought they resolved the Night King arc too early. They should have dealt with Cersei first and then dealt with the Night King. Now they have no soldiers left to fight the Golden Company, and I don't see how they could manage without some serious bs on the writers' part. King's Landing should have been humanity's last stand, not Winterfell..

Well,

1) Its clear from the preview that more people survived the battle than could be expected given what we saw in the episode. Which is ok, Winterfell is a very large castle.

2) 2 Dragons > Golden Company. Remember that Agon conquered the 7 kingdoms with only a few thousand soldiers because he also had 3 dragons. Danny will still have a lot more soldiers than Agon had even after the results of this battle. And hey, we might see the Dario bring the 2nd Sons over the Narrow Sea to reinforce them, and give us some awkward moments with him and Jon.

3) Kings Landing as the last stand doesn't make sense. Winterfell being where "Winter Fell" is poetic and fits into the supernatural forces at work. Kings Landing is just a big stinky city that the Targarian's built as a central capital. It has no ties to the ancient struggle with the forces of winter.


With the defeat of the Night King and how hated Cersei is, the remaining lords of Westeros will probably give their allegance to Danerys.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I thought they resolved the Night King arc too early. They should have dealt with Cersei first and then dealt with the Night King. Now they have no soldiers left to fight the Golden Company, and I don't see how they could manage without some serious bs on the writers' part. King's Landing should have been humanity's last stand, not Winterfell..

Well,

1) Its clear from the preview that more people survived the battle than could be expected given what we saw in the episode. Which is ok, Winterfell is a very large castle.

2) 2 Dragons > Golden Company. Remember that Agon conquered the 7 kingdoms with only a few thousand soldiers because he also had 3 dragons. Danny will still have a lot more soldiers than Agon had even after the results of this battle. And hey, we might see the Dario bring the 2nd Sons over the Narrow Sea to reinforce them, and give us some awkward moments with him and Jon.

3) Kings Landing as the last stand doesn't make sense. Winterfell being where "Winter Fell" is poetic and fits into the supernatural forces at work. Kings Landing is just a big stinky city that the Targarian's built as a central capital. It has no ties to the ancient struggle with the forces of winter.


With the defeat of the Night King and how hated Cersei is, the remaining lords of Westeros will probably give their allegance to Danerys.

Ok fair enough, that does make sense.
Didn't the dragons get pretty well beat up though? Those undead did a number on Danny's dragon/.

And John's dragon certainly has turf toe and rug burns after that landing.

number 1 rule that people have learned when fighting the white walkers is limit your exposure....so massing troops in a huge open plain was a pretty stupid move...more walls and defensible barricades. The pikes of the unsullied have a pretty good reach, should have put the spiked walls in front on them and use the dothraki to pull kite of the horde away while the artillery (smartly placed behind the castle, you don't need accuracy for that horde) fires from safety. This could have made the battle much more interesting....instead it was pretty boring actually.

The Dothraki lights out thing was a pretty cool play, get everyones hopes up and then dash them. I guess I get why they did that for feel, but it was a terrible plan.

What people?

So far, Sam, Jon, Tormund and Dolorous Ed are, so far as I can recall, the only characters to have seen, let alone fought and survived the Dead? And it didn’t go too well in any of those engagements

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What people?

So far, Sam, Jon, Tormund and Dolorous Ed are, so far as I can recall, the only characters to have seen, let alone fought and survived the Dead? And it didn’t go too well in any of those engagements

The refugees from Hardhome also survived the Undead. There weren't many of them, but they were still more than 5 people.

 gorgon wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

Why did all of the White Walkers also die when the Night King got killed? Aren't they different from the undead?

Because

Spoiler:

they needed to wrap the story up, and the quickest path to doing that was the old 'kill the head X and they all expire' plot. Seriously, I think most of the 'but why' questions can be answered by some combination of 'it looked kewl' and 'needed to keep things moving'.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What people?

So far, Sam, Jon, Tormund and Dolorous Ed are, so far as I can recall, the only characters to have seen, let alone fought and survived the Dead? And it didn’t go too well in any of those engagements

Dany has seen them, lost a Dragon to them because of Jon.....as have wildiings, Jon is one of the commanders for feths sake. Everyone who went to the parly with Cersei has seen at least one dead guy. Lets not pretend that their way of fighting is a shock.

Lets turn that around -

1. You have of enemy unknown strength because you can;t be bothered to use your cavalry Dragons or pointless Bran mage to look. However you know that their numbers are massive.
2. Its pitch black and you and your horses can;t see.
3. Everyone who has fought the dead has lost
4. They have magic weapons that can kill Dragons.
5. If you loose to the dead you become part of their army.

Apart from making a pretty picture why exactly would you send your light fast, elite cavalry charging into the night on their own?

Who has actually fought a pitched battle against them though?

It’s basically Winterfell. That was our lot.

I accept some of Winterfell’s tactics were ropey. But that doesn’t mean the defenders had an intimate knowledge of the dead. Or just how many of them they might face.

I think the plan was also drawn up, naively, assuming they would get to fight in the daylight. And when the dead showed up at night it was too late to change plans.

just finished the latest episode, wow, this really is the year of disapointments for me haha

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who has actually fought a pitched battle against them though?

It’s basically Winterfell. That was our lot.

I accept some of Winterfell’s tactics were ropey. But that doesn’t mean the defenders had an intimate knowledge of the dead. Or just how many of them they might face.

Were they not told the dead numbers were vast? Their batttle table showed that

If only they had some sort of mage who could use his power to scout out the dead, tell them how they operated and where they were.... oh wait no its much better that Bran just sat in chair and did feth all
If only they had elite, fast moving cavalry that could scout the enemy - oh wait no - lets have them freeze their asses off in a formation for half the night and then charge blindy into the night.

Several of those who saw the massive organised dead force at the destruction of the wall were at Winterfell and he power of the undead Dragon
As were people who had seen the dead swarm the living at the wilding port.
Again the tactics of the dead and strengths of the dead were known.

Why waste the Dothraki and reinforce the Dead - yes i know the show runners wanted a pretty image or two and they also need to weaken Dany's forces but that does not make it any less stupid in universe.

I think the plan was also drawn up, naively, assuming they would get to fight in the daylight. And when the dead showed up at night it was too late to change plans.

Nah thats letting them off way to easy - why was the artillery outside the walls. why no scouting, why - in fact just why was this battle so half assed by the writers and made so dark that many of us had trouble even seeing what was going on.

Mr Morden wrote:Another moment was the - we are fighting an enemy that raises the dead - lets put all the non combatants in the crypt.....

From what I saw, the NK can only resurrect bodies that aren't completely decayed. Most of the ones in the crypt would be. Plus, even IF people thought the KN could resurrect those bodies, who'd have expected them to be able to punch through the actual coffins?
Sure, probably should have had at least a handful of soldiers in there with dragonglass weapons, but all the same, I can understand not expecting that.

I don't mind confusing battles - thats war - although steady cam is always crap - but making the battle at night, using unsteady cam and then having whiteouts just make it looks like a cop out to avoid too much difficult cgi.

Battle at night was good. Really sets up the whole "end of the world" stuff, plus the symbolism. The only actual issue I had with the picture was the dragon fights, but I can hardly tell which dragon is which anyways.

The problems were really there just to provide specatcle rather than make any sense (perhaps they had been tlaking to Rian Johnson or Christopher Nolan)

Nah, it made sense. The battle plans were bad, but again, I feel that the things would have panned out the way they did even IF the defenders had been better strategists. It wasn't a case of 'the good guys struggle because of stupid plans', it was a case of 'the force of nature is so strong, it would have beaten them to that point in any scenario'. The showrunners went with what they thought was the best looking option (some of which did genuinely look good, even if not tactically effective - hey Dothraki).

Also did the vaunted dragonglass weapons do anything?

Yes. They put down the undead properly, instead of needing to use swords that just temporarily move the undead with kinetic energy. They don't stop them coming BACK after a second resurrection, but it does kill them.

The doomed charge of the Dothraki is just there to provide a cool bit in the opening sequence, absolutely nothing else. Well also to keep weakening Dan'y army. If you they are useless in a siege( apart from recon and harressment - neither of which they do) - the don'tt bring them north - keep them south to keep an eye of whats happening and to cover any retreat.

Agreed. They could have had those same visuals occur in other places, and it would have looked just as good. An example of this could have been a group of riders doing a scouting pass, we watch as they ride back, and then watch their torches go out as they get intercepted by undead ambushing them.

So just watching the actual show and not after show interviews etc (*) - Whats the point of Bran? Just why is the NK so obessed with him that he and his mates are happy to stand around doing nothing until Aryra leaps (from somewhere) and knifes him.

(*) If you have to explain stuff like this you are as incompetant as Rian Johnson at telling the actual story.

They did in the previous episode. Bran says the goal of the NK is to wipe out all trace of men, including the memory of man, which Bran represents. Sam elaborates that death is "forgetting, and being forgotten", which erasing the memory of mankind, as well as mankind itself, would do. Therefore, killing Bran is a priority as it represents killing every aspect of mankind.

It is explained. You don't have to like that explanation, but to say that "they don't explain it" is wrong.

They know the NK can not raise the long dead because and when? Where is the only place in castle that you know the dead can come from? Most castles have a central keep for non comabants......

The battle plans were beyond bad - they were unfeasably stupid - if Melisandre had not turned up out of the blue they were just going to send the Dothraki into battle in total darkness. Awesome move Jon.

It would have made the NK a much better villan IF the alliance had actually showed any kind of miliatary ideas beyond a new born orc. Have them make sound plans that make sense - and THEN have still win. Not him going - seriously this is the best you can do - why did I even bother to come in person - you guys are so rubbish that I coudl haev let the dead and afew Walkers do it.

The NK was going to kill everyone at Winterfell anyway especially since he sat there doing nothing.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think the plan was also drawn up, naively, assuming they would get to fight in the daylight. And when the dead showed up at night it was too late to change plans.

That would explain a lot, actually. Thought that might not have been a reasonable expectation when fighting those who never sleep or rest.

 Mr Morden wrote:
They know the NK can not raise the long dead because and when?

They didn't know if he could or not. That's the point. *I*, as a nigh-omniscient observer of the show, wasn't sure if he could resurrect long long dead bodies. How were they meant to know?

Where is the only place in castle that you know the dead can come from? Most castles have a central keep for non comabants......

And the crypts are still safer. We saw what happened to the interior of Winterfell - it got overrun. The crypts were, in the context of the show, clearly the safest place. If it hadn't been for the dead held within reanimating, they would have been fine, or at least, survived longer than anyone inside an overground structure.

The battle plans were beyond bad - they were unfeasably stupid - if Melisandre had not turned up out of the blue they were just going to send the Dothraki into battle in total darkness. Awesome move Jon.

Not unfeasibly. There were attempts - we see clear efforts of spiking surfaces, the trench, and the collapsible bridges. Could more efforts have been made? Sure, but it's not "unfeasibly" stupid. Hyperbole is kinda offputting.

It would have made the NK a much better villan IF the alliance had actually showed any kind of miliatary ideas beyond a new born orc. Have them make sound plans that make sense - and THEN have still win. Not him going - seriously this is the best you can do - why did I even bother to come in person - you guys are so rubbish that I coudl haev let the dead and afew Walkers do it.

End of the day, most of the audience won't care about military tactics. And, at the end of the day, if it's inevitable that the defenders will be overrun anyways, why not throw in some very cool looking visuals? Yes, I think that the worst bit about the episode was the poor military tactics, but it didn't ruin it for me. Having that kind of stuff is just icing on the cake, when it's clear that no matter what defensive stratagems the defenders employ, they'll be overrun anyway because the plot demands it.
It's not like "oh the heroes clearly would have won if not for this unexplained tactical stupidity".

The NK was going to kill everyone at Winterfell anyway especially since he sat there doing nothing.

Yes, but Bran was the priority. As you've said, you wanted to know why Bran was important - the show told you.

Fact they know the Knight King can raise the dead, they don;t know his limits - therefor cramming the non combatants into a crypt full of the dead is a risk.

A plan of sending cavalry blind into the night on their own when you absolutely know they will do nothing because of the massive numbers of the enemy you now about was not "unfeasibly stupid?" Its the same as the doomed charge at the start of the battle of Minas Tirith but at night and just to add icing to the cake of sheer stupidity when you can know they can be raised to fight your former friends and allies.

Sticking artillery out in the open - unfesasibly stupid and pointless - the whole point of that sort of thing is it fires over the walls

Everyone I know said how stupid pretty much everything they did was - why spend that time and effort making a battle but make us believe that no one saw the flaws in the plans - make the apparent victory of the NK mean something rather than - "yeah Jon learnt nothing from all his pervious defeats" Why make it look stupid whenyou cna make it look better, what about sticking the trebuchets out in the open made the battle better? We both agree that you coud have made the Dothraki have the same visual effect but in a better way - the same could be said for every element of the battle.

And of course they could have made it so most of us could actually see what was going on.

No Sam told us something that makes little sense. Its not like Bran bothered to tell anyone anything of use anyway. Better off allowing him to witness the death of mankind and then wonder back up and kill him them.

At least the charge from Minas Tirith had an in-universe reason(Denathors crazy).

This one doesn’t. But I think it’s a combination of both the writers being dumb and/or it not being relevant to the story. Which is fine. It just means LOTR has a more nuanced story in this instance.

I was pretty dissapointed in this episode, not fussed about the battle tactics of the defenders though but I did find their lack of spiritual defence unforgivable.

Every fighter should have had a dragonglass implant and where were the holy icon bearers and rings of garlic.

I was more annoyed with how haphazardly the undead attacked with pockets of 5 to 10 zombies haunting a room while thousands stood outside the walls of winterfell.

Also I would have been happier if there were fewer survivers.

I am half expecting a time travel adventure to fix all the damage done by the night king.

 StygianBeach wrote:
I am half expecting a time travel adventure to fix all the damage done by the night king.