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Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

Doesn't look like Huron's claw to me; my money is on it being from the rumoured Chaos Knight.

The Circle of Iniquity
The Fourth Seal
(HN) wrote:
It's an objectively mediocre book from the rule, lore, edition, content, hobby point of view.
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

Yeah, it looks a similar sort of size to the claws on the heldrake
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Crispy78 wrote:
Yeah, it looks a similar sort of size to the claws on the heldrake


Also similar to the Venomcrawler.

The muzzle appears to be a melta gun, too small for a Knight.

My guess is we're seeing a new Daemon Engine.

   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Huron crossed the demon engine rubicon

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I'm betting on either a new Armiger sized Chaos Knight, or a new Deamon Engine for World Eaters.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






To go back to the core topic (not telling anyone off, just had a new thought to put out there)…

Can 40K benefit from the way Chaos is treated in Age of Sigmar?

In short, they’ve been split into multiple books, but can be fairly freely allied together.

Each God has a dedicated book. Undivided get Slaves to Darkness, then Beastmen and Skaven get their own books.

Now let’s push aside all discussion about whether said books are equal in terms of potency, and focus instead on the wider approach.

In 40K of course, there aren’t God specific books, so much as Former Legion specific books, because the focus is so squarely on CSM to the practical exclusion of all others.

Sure, Nurgle and Tzeentch both have some kind of Cultist rough equivalent. But one can’t exactly make an army solely using those units.

So what if they took the AoS route? Codex Tzeentch and so on.

Each would include the God Specific Former Legions, as well as God Specific mortal cult type units, or at least God Specific mortal cult rules for otherwise standard “everyone gets bog standard Chaos Cults and Traitor Guard units”.

Codex CSM would in turn be for non-aligned forces. Renegades, Undivided Legions, Black Legion etc, with various perks and privileges for piling it altogether. This would include your relatively standard Cult Units (Noise Marines, Berzerkers et al), but not the super dedicated Head Honcho’s Best units (Scarab Occult et al).

Each book should allow either purely Cultist or purely CSM forces, and every iteration in between.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in fr
Sinister Chaos Marine






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To go back to the core topic (not telling anyone off, just had a new thought to put out there)…

Can 40K benefit from the way Chaos is treated in Age of Sigmar?

In short, they’ve been split into multiple books, but can be fairly freely allied together.

Each God has a dedicated book. Undivided get Slaves to Darkness, then Beastmen and Skaven get their own books.

Now let’s push aside all discussion about whether said books are equal in terms of potency, and focus instead on the wider approach.

In 40K of course, there aren’t God specific books, so much as Former Legion specific books, because the focus is so squarely on CSM to the practical exclusion of all others.

Sure, Nurgle and Tzeentch both have some kind of Cultist rough equivalent. But one can’t exactly make an army solely using those units.

So what if they took the AoS route? Codex Tzeentch and so on.

Each would include the God Specific Former Legions, as well as God Specific mortal cult type units, or at least God Specific mortal cult rules for otherwise standard “everyone gets bog standard Chaos Cults and Traitor Guard units”.

Codex CSM would in turn be for non-aligned forces. Renegades, Undivided Legions, Black Legion etc, with various perks and privileges for piling it altogether. This would include your relatively standard Cult Units (Noise Marines, Berzerkers et al), but not the super dedicated Head Honcho’s Best units (Scarab Occult et al).

Each book should allow either purely Cultist or purely CSM forces, and every iteration in between.


That could work ! If we look at the ratio for 8th we have:
- Tzeentch: Tsons and the Scourged
- Nurgle: Death guard and the Purge
- Slanesh: Emperor's children and the Flawless host
- Khorne: World eaters and the Brazen beasts
- Undivided: Alpha legion, Black legion, World bearers, Crimson slaughter, Iron warriors, Night Lords and Red corsairs.

The undivided codex would be heavy but at least the themes would be clears. It might also help further differentiate mono god legions (ex: EC and flawless host).

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

The AoS Chaos approach would also remove the odd situation we currently have in 40k where if you take, say, Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, your penalized. Honestly, I don't know why they don't handle 40k Chaos the same way they do AoS Chaos.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






I don’t think the Undivided book would be any heftier than the basic Space Marine Codex?

Certainly there’s plenty scope to pack in Cult and Renegade units alongside the existent CSM gubbins?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The AoS Chaos approach would also remove the odd situation we currently have in 40k where if you take, say, Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, your penalized. Honestly, I don't know why they don't handle 40k Chaos the same way they do AoS Chaos.


I'd hope it was a simple matter of timing. They clearly won't humour anything with a god-specific focus for the marines until they have a range refresh to run alongside it, maybe once the noise marines and zerkers are polished off they'll be more likely to go this way.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






That’s certainly a possibility.

Given we’ve had at least a pair of Chaos books in 9th, we may now be looking at 10th Ed wishlisting in this thread!

I will be interested to follow peeps comments are further books roll out for 9th.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




...man if we get 5 codices to cover chaos we will never be fully updated each edition :( I mean it would be ideal but I would be hopeful that GW would be content letting us sit an edition without model releases at that point to support updates in future editions

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t think the Undivided book would be any heftier than the basic Space Marine Codex?

Certainly there’s plenty scope to pack in Cult and Renegade units alongside the existent CSM gubbins?


There isn't, mostly because GW pulls out all the stops to punish players when they start using cultists:
Point increases
Cultists start with but lose access to special army rules.
Don't count for X, Y, Z
Can't have more than 1 per 'Real Chaos Unit' (and this one is current to the 9th edition DG and TS books)

As far as GW is concerned, using cultists is Doing It Wrong, and must be stopped.

----
As to your wider point, GW has hamstrung itself when it comes to 40k chaos. Monogod armies don't work for chaos marines as they've been shaped as Their Own Thing over the course of 9 editions. Daemons have been kicked out and huddle together out of fear (and gaping holes in army capability if you dare do monogod). Real chaos forces (as described in the background) consisting of cultists and maybe a handful of marines and some summoned daemons basically would have to be created from the ground up (again).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/21 15:29:42


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t think the Undivided book would be any heftier than the basic Space Marine Codex?

Certainly there’s plenty scope to pack in Cult and Renegade units alongside the existent CSM gubbins?


There isn't, mostly because GW pulls out all the stops to punish players when they start using cultists:
Point increases
Cultists start with but lose access to special army rules.
Don't count for X, Y, Z
Can't have more than 1 per 'Real Chaos Unit' (and this one is current to the 9th edition DG and TS books)

As far as GW is concerned, using cultists is Doing It Wrong, and must be stopped.


well, the most believable rumors are saying that we're getting:
Cultists
Renegade Guard
Human mutants
possessed humans
cultists standard bearer
cultist character + bodyguard

so maybe GW wants cultists to be played in the undivided army

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t think the Undivided book would be any heftier than the basic Space Marine Codex?

Certainly there’s plenty scope to pack in Cult and Renegade units alongside the existent CSM gubbins?


There isn't, mostly because GW pulls out all the stops to punish players when they start using cultists:
Point increases
Cultists start with but lose access to special army rules.
Don't count for X, Y, Z
Can't have more than 1 per 'Real Chaos Unit' (and this one is current to the 9th edition DG and TS books)

As far as GW is concerned, using cultists is Doing It Wrong, and must be stopped.


well, the most believable rumors are saying that we're getting:
Cultists
Renegade Guard
Human mutants
possessed humans
cultists standard bearer
cultist character + bodyguard

so maybe GW wants cultists to be played in the undivided army


Maybe. But if all that's part of chaos marine codex, its a huge departure from the way they've treated non-marines in the TS and DG books, and their general attitude towards cultists for a long time now.
If it happens, I fear the nerfbat that will hit them when people just stop taking marines.

Its more believable as its own subfaction, even if that feels like not-genestealer-cults mk 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 15:33:11


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Voss wrote:

Maybe. But if all that's part of chaos marine codex, its a huge departure from the way they've treated non-marines in the TS and DG books, and their general attitude towards cultists for a long time now.
If it happens, I fear the nerfbat that will hit them when people just stop taking marines.

Its more believable as its own subfaction, even if that feels like not-genestealer-cults mk 2.


i'd be all for a R&H codex being brought back tbh, i hate running cultists even if theyre just better right now (in the CSM codex, glad they got bad in TS and DG)

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t think the Undivided book would be any heftier than the basic Space Marine Codex?

Certainly there’s plenty scope to pack in Cult and Renegade units alongside the existent CSM gubbins?


There isn't, mostly because GW pulls out all the stops to punish players when they start using cultists:
Point increases
Cultists start with but lose access to special army rules.
Don't count for X, Y, Z
Can't have more than 1 per 'Real Chaos Unit' (and this one is current to the 9th edition DG and TS books)

As far as GW is concerned, using cultists is Doing It Wrong, and must be stopped.


well, the most believable rumors are saying that we're getting:
Cultists
Renegade Guard
Human mutants
possessed humans
cultists standard bearer
cultist character + bodyguard

so maybe GW wants cultists to be played in the undivided army

And nothing is stopping them from sticking the same "only 1 per each Astartes unit" on all of those like they did with Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors. Or they could put the Renegade Guardsmen, Mutants, Human Possessed, and characters in their own separate list, like the old LatD list.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The 1 Mortal per Astartes is a good thing, it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Mortal fodder and some Daemon Engines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 15:58:54


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gert wrote:
The 1 Mortal per Astartes is a good thing, it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Mortal fodder and some Daemon Engines.


That's certainly GW's take on it. At least.... for the game.

For the background, Chaos revolts are vastly mostly cultists, renegades and maybe 1-5 Traitor Marines acting as masterminds, advisors and brutes. If the game doesn't reflect the background, that's a GW problem of their own creation.
One that players shouldn't be punished for, just because they want to play what interests them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 16:47:33


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

When I make lists to play Flawless Host narratively it's mostly either cultists or Traitor guard that make up the bulk.

Generally it's;
Dark Apostle
Sorcerer
Noise Marines
Raptors
Then the rest is guard/cultists to taste.

If it's a PUG I generally go full csm just cuz I like how they look more than the Traitor cadians. Now if GW continues with the themes from BSF the new Renegade Guard has me optimistic for the upcoming chaos stuff.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
The 1 Mortal per Astartes is a good thing, it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Mortal fodder and some Daemon Engines.

Yeah, but wouldn't it make more sense to make CSM actually good? Instead of arbitrary restrictions that tell people how they can/can't build their armies? I mean, I won't be running out to get any of those units to add to my Night Lords, but something like Voss described above definitely sounds fitting for Alpha Legion or Word Bearers. Or not, if you don't want that. But it should be an option if you do.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Out of all the armies, CSM should be the most fluid in terms of how you can build it. Want daemons, done. Want mortals, done. Want neither, done.

You would think that GW would see that but...we are talking about James, so there's that to consider.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Racerguy180 wrote:
Out of all the armies, CSM should be the most fluid in terms of how you can build it. Want daemons, done. Want mortals, done. Want neither, done.

You would think that GW would see that but...we are talking about James, so there's that to consider.


It never fails to be weird to me that Chaos armies are consistently some of the most rigid and unbending armies when it comes to what you're allowed to do.

The only saving grace for the next codex is the Shadowspear/Start Collecting CSM squad has weapons the standard unit box doesn't have (and havocs are now 'different models'), so they can't inflict the Death Guard/Ork Kommandos accounting schema on the standard CSM weapons loadout.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Racerguy180 wrote:
Out of all the armies, CSM should be the most fluid in terms of how you can build it. Want daemons, done. Want mortals, done. Want neither, done.

You would think that GW would see that but...we are talking about James, so there's that to consider.


I’m still salty that we lost bike lords and sorcerers and mounted lords and sorcerers and every variation of dark apostle chosen and warpsmith, but loayalists kept theirs, added primaris equivalents across the board and gained stratagems to upgrade captains to chapter masters and what not...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Racerguy180 wrote:Out of all the armies, CSM should be the most fluid in terms of how you can build it. Want daemons, done. Want mortals, done. Want neither, done.

You would think that GW would see that but...we are talking about James, so there's that to consider.

Exactly: take what you want, leave what you don't. Don't apply your preferences on other Chaos players. The name of the faction is CHAOS, it shouldn't be so stringent on what you can and can't do.

Voss wrote:It never fails to be weird to me that Chaos armies are consistently some of the most rigid and unbending armies when it comes to what you're allowed to do.

The only saving grace for the next codex is the Shadowspear/Start Collecting CSM squad has weapons the standard unit box doesn't have (and havocs are now 'different models'), so they can't inflict the Death Guard/Ork Kommandos accounting schema on the standard CSM weapons loadout.

CSM and Havocs should be ok, but I'm still worried about our terminators.
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




I’m done with 40k if they pull that crap on terminators... even better yet why not just limit wysiwyg? In a unit like terminators make the rules for it be that the unit can either be homogenous (ranged) with the option of a heavy weapon, make power weapons uniform because honestly they aren’t as good as lightning claws 90% of the time and people pretty universally pick one; the game isn’t granular enough anyways for it to matter so let players model however... but make homogeny for melee weapons an option too. That will fix more or less wysiwyg and limited sprue options. Slap it on havocs too; let players state all heavy bolters are reaper chain cannons for example. All missile launchers are lascannons. Another one down...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:Out of all the armies, CSM should be the most fluid in terms of how you can build it. Want daemons, done. Want mortals, done. Want neither, done.

You would think that GW would see that but...we are talking about James, so there's that to consider.

Exactly: take what you want, leave what you don't. Don't apply your preferences on other Chaos players. The name of the faction is CHAOS, it shouldn't be so stringent on what you can and can't do.

Well yes but actually no. The faction isn't Chaos: Chaos Space Marines, it's Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines. If you're playing Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines, then the focus and core of the army should be Space Marines, not Cultists or Daemons. In a perfect world, there would be a list where you could play Chaotic mortal forces like Renegade Militia, Cult forces, and Traitor Guard but they should not be a part of CSM. I'm not saying the Cultist unit should be removed, I'm saying that they shouldn't be the automatic choice for Troops choices regardless of what Legion/Chapter you play. Alpha Legion should get bonuses to Cultists, maybe make them Obsec or benefit from the Legion trait but there needs to be balance so that a Black Legion or Red Corsair's force isn't getting ganked on because they took CSM over Cultists.
Just so it's clear BTW, both Tsons and DG can still take horde lists because each of the "mortal" units (Tzaangors and Poxwalkers) have different limitation rules due to keywords. For every unit of Rubrics or Plague Marines you get one each of Cultists and Tzaangors/Poxwalkers.
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

Chaos SHOULD be one book, though. Put it all together. Let supplements focus on restrictive trade offs. Chaos players need more tools.

Daemons and Astartes/Renegades in different books was the beginning of the slow decline anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 18:42:22


Thought for the day
 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Las wrote:
Chaos SHOULD be one book, though. Put it all together. Let supplements focus on restrictive trade offs. Chaos players need more tools.

Daemons and Astartes/Renegades in different books was the beginning of the slow decline anyway.


I'd be ok with the separate books if they put some leg work into letting them link together. Knight of the Cog is the only 9th ed rule bar inquisitors/assassins (I think?) that breaks normal army building compositions via encouraging an ally detachment. Kights of the Iron Cog goes a step further and merges them more or less.

Lets have some of that, by all means make all the different chaos books & supplements, but have a framework for chopping and choosing without excessive punishment.

Loose example, imagine a lost & damned army that allowed 1 heretic astartes or daemons patrol per lost & damned detachment without breaking army boni. If further limits are needed either a % points cap, or restrict the army bonus rule to only applying to the parent codex. Want Vraks L&D then your Night Lords are just chaos marine schmucks, or vice versa.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:Out of all the armies, CSM should be the most fluid in terms of how you can build it. Want daemons, done. Want mortals, done. Want neither, done.

You would think that GW would see that but...we are talking about James, so there's that to consider.

Exactly: take what you want, leave what you don't. Don't apply your preferences on other Chaos players. The name of the faction is CHAOS, it shouldn't be so stringent on what you can and can't do.

Well yes but actually no. The faction isn't Chaos: Chaos Space Marines, it's Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines. If you're playing Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines, then the focus and core of the army should be Space Marines, not Cultists or Daemons. In a perfect world, there would be a list where you could play Chaotic mortal forces like Renegade Militia, Cult forces, and Traitor Guard but they should not be a part of CSM. I'm not saying the Cultist unit should be removed, I'm saying that they shouldn't be the automatic choice for Troops choices regardless of what Legion/Chapter you play. Alpha Legion should get bonuses to Cultists, maybe make them Obsec or benefit from the Legion trait but there needs to be balance so that a Black Legion or Red Corsair's force isn't getting ganked on because they took CSM over Cultists.


But you're perfectly fine with saying the opposite, because... the name of the book?
You know that they changed that, right? And that once upon a time (not all that long ago), they sold the armies you're throwing under the bus?

This isn't like Codex Marines shifting scouts to a different slot in the book (they're still fieldable in the basic FOC organization in the same numbers), they've just scrawled a big 'NOPE!' over people's armies (and the in-universe background they're based on. Wanna fight the Sabbat Worlds crusade? Any of Cain's adventures? Sorry, the forces of chaos are not appearing in these wars, just a handful of traitor marines).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/10/21 21:13:19


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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