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Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






How do!

So in a very similar vein to my thread about how Eldar have seemingly almost always got the poopy end of the stick, Chaos is in desperate need of some love.

Right now, it’s just not feeling especially Chaotic. Now, for absolute clarity? I do not currently play Chaos. Yes I did play Chaos during then 3.5 era. No I am not advocating for anything like a Codex as genuinely overpowered as the 3.5 version. Nor do I think it’s reasonable to expect the absolute perfection for a long time player that was Imperial Armour 13. That was a crazy volume for Lost & Damned. So many options, once you read it (and especially the background) you were best off deciding on a theme, then selecting your units.

But Chaos in mainstream 40K? It’s just so….boring. It’s too organised. Not enough bizarreness. Not enough freedom of list building. Background wise, the forces of Chaos are described as Warbands. Literal cults of personality, with underlings/aspirants following a Warlord. Instead, we get a sort of “we are still Legions, we are!!!!

It’s just not doing them any service. Like, at all. Perhaps appropriately, as a tabletop force they feel like they’ve lost their soul.

Now, the aesthetic and just models wise I’m presently quite happy with them. But again I’m not a Chaos player, so treat that accordingly.

I’d rather see them be a bit more character heavy. Not necessarily Hero Hammer in terms of raw tabletop power, but perhaps a greater variety of squad leaders. I feel that might go some way to adding variety, and better represent their background feel.

Example? Main CSM Codex? If I’m picking a Cult Unit (so Rubric, Bereserkers and so on), let me have a choice of unit champions. Perhaps an Aspirant suits my plans just fine. Maybe I’d want them to be an Exalted Champion leading their most loyal/fanatical/snotty/bonkers followers. And let me have options for their particular war gear. Perhaps even link the unit’s options to their particular standing. After all, someone clearly In Favour with the Powers That Be are successful, so we can reasonably expect their followers to be better equipped as they persuade/strong arm/outright murder their way to better equipment/

And for goodness (badness?) sake? Let my Veterans of the Long War (as in extant survivors of the Heresy era) feel like it. Beyond a single buffed stat. They’re Astartes with centuries if not millennia of experience. They should be super handy in a fight. But don’t introduce them whilst ditching bog standard CSM, because there will always be relatively newer turncoats in the fold.

Give me mutations back. Not simply Possessed. But squads demonstrating useful mutations.

Give me the option of a full on Jamboree of Horror Chaos back - as a valid option alongside plainer variations, Cultists and Daemons.

Now? Balancing this within the Codex? Don’t look at me. But if it can be done? Knowing you’re up against a Chaos force will mean something again, as what Bob, Baz, Dave and Daz might field as Chaos players could be wildly different.

Just…..make Chaos properly Chaotic again.

Please.

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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Great MDG, now my neck is sore from agreeing so much.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

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If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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Exalted Beastlord




I’d rather see them be a bit more character heavy. Not necessarily Hero Hammer in terms of raw tabletop power, but perhaps a greater variety of squad leaders. I feel that might go some way to adding variety, and better represent their background feel.

Eh. Don't really agree with this. They've gotten a lot of... really random subleaders in recent years, but for the most part they're walking around on foot in power armor or are (randomly) legion specific special characters, or specifically focused on the daemon engine aspect of the army (which isn't legions or renegades).

(And of course nurgle and tzeentch double down on the really random lieutenant characters, but that's neither here nor there for the main chaos codex).

Personally, I'd like to see them do something with the really tattered elite slot (which on the US website is: possessed, helbrutes, berserkers and the awful mutilators; plus some random death guard single models, the SE noise marine single character and the dark angel command squad, complete with assault cannon, terminator legs and various ravenwing pieces among the various bits and bobs).

At this point, I think the focus should be more chaos UNITS and less Codex marine squad equivalents (but with fewer options and spikes) would be welcome. Revamp the elite and fast attack sections particularly, and decide if cultists are a mainstay of the army or do a dedicated chaos uprising army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/07 18:35:22


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Where certain options should fall within Force Organisation is definitely a good bit of the discussion. But not being a present Chaos player not something I feel I should weigh in on.

But I still stand by letting Chaos players have an option of squad leader back

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where certain options should fall within Force Organisation is definitely a good bit of the discussion. But not being a present Chaos player not something I feel I should weigh in on.

But I still stand by letting Chaos players have an option of squad leader back


Well part of it is simply that I'm tired of GW papering over problems with $35+ single models rather than doing new _units_ that actually fill a role in the codex. Its lazy and cheap (for them) but expensive and inevitably a FOMO race for us.
I just refuse, and I'm tired of seeing the wasted release space on such things.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




I think GW is a little clueless what to do with Chaos. Fluffwize you could give every Legion a supplement like the loyalists got, even additional ones for Red Corsairs and Biles Creations and named Renegades. But they aren't (loyal) Space Marines so they don't sell as much.
You could go the 3.5 approach and make the Codex a tool Box to build what you like. But GWs doesn't work that way anymore because no models, no rules. So since 4th edition really we're left with a strange hodgepodge of SM with spikes, Daemon engines, monopose Cultists, Daemons not allying with CSM, rules in every campaign for some minor faction like Fabius, Fallen or Belakors Followers, but nothing fits together, really. You can do a proper Black Legion, Word Bearers and Iron Warriors with what GW presents you (also DG and TS). Everything else needs a lot of imagination and conversion work. And that's before talking about competitiveness.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Probably in the minority but as a red corsairs player, gimme some proper renegade rules. Varkesh's unit over there? They were part of the void knights 6 terrain months ago, why does their razorback not work now? Why is venerable brother Chendar now suddenly a fleshy trash can rather than a regular toaster whose assault cannon popped away.

I'd happily lose some of the god specific units and some daemon related units in return for taking in some of those firstborn marines they can't rehome.

There is room for a mid ground and once that is populated, then you have full artistic license to go nuts on the crazy mind bending stuff for the legions in a different book.

Edit: also, make chaos marks do something again!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/07 18:55:13


 
   
Made in us
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San Jose, CA

Grotsnik's making waaayyyyy too much sense for it to work in GW's current business model.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Racerguy180 wrote:
Grotsnik's making waaayyyyy too much sense for it to work in GW's current business model.


Quiet you!

I think you’ll find many of my threads have proven curiously prescient! From the new Liber Xenologies book to Plushies!

All hail me! I are grate!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Probably in the minority but as a red corsairs player, gimme some proper renegade rules. Varkesh's unit over there? They were part of the void knights 6 terrain months ago, why does their razorback not work now? Why is venerable brother Chendar now suddenly a fleshy trash can rather than a regular toaster whose assault cannon popped away.

I'd happily lose some of the god specific units and some daemon related units in return for taking in some of those firstborn marines they can't rehome.

There is room for a mid ground and once that is populated, then you have full artistic license to go nuts on the crazy mind bending stuff for the legions in a different book.

Edit: also, make chaos marks do something again!


This could be an option. Certainly it’s in the same vein as IA:13.

You want a relatively recent Traitor force? Cool. You get new toys, but are excluded from things such as Veterans and Their Toys. Because as much as IA:13 was all about wide ranging choices? When it came to actually forging an army it was about sacrificing stuff for your preference.

My words genuinely aren’t enough to praise IA:13

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/07 19:27:51


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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

It's weird because all the pieces are there to make a good chaos force, and they've actually made a fair few new units, but somehow they seem to miss the mark each time. Seems like a lack of interest from the game designers more than anything else.

   
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Right behind you.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's weird because all the pieces are there to make a good chaos force, and they've actually made a fair few new units, but somehow they seem to miss the mark each time. Seems like a lack of interest from the game designers more than anything else.

Scuttlebutt is that it's less "lack of interest" and more "conflicting interests". Some want to go Legion route, some want Renegades, all have their own vision.

Same thing is apparently happening with Guard.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Criticism fair.

Suggestions and Wishlist betterer!

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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Well, I don't think any codex has ever topped the 3.5 one. If you'd tweaked Iron Warriors and Daemonbomb armies, that book worked near perfectly to represent all legions and renegades really well. Add cultists and modern daemon engines and you'd have a great book. It's hard to get right because you're trying to do the dark mirror of the Imperium in one or two books when they get multiple space marine books and then full codices for the other factions as well. So a chaos player will always feel hard done by, but I think 3.5 came the closest to nailing it so far so we should stick with that as the model and just work on the balance issues, which are solveable in my view.

   
Made in ch
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* cries in absolute state of renegades and heretics...


I'd Like my army back... Please!

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, the Chaos umbrella is huge. There's so many permutations of what they COULD be. But so long as they keep trying to force that into such few books, you're left with tastes of different codexes with a hope of trying to put them together. A taste of Chaos Renegades with Cultists. A taste of Daemon-forges with the Daemon Engines. A taste of psychopaths with Berzerkers. A taste of stolid siege masters with some Forge World Chaos Dreadnoughts.

A taste of everything, but never a meal.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
It's weird because all the pieces are there to make a good chaos force, and they've actually made a fair few new units, but somehow they seem to miss the mark each time. Seems like a lack of interest from the game designers more than anything else.

Scuttlebutt is that it's less "lack of interest" and more "conflicting interests". Some want to go Legion route, some want Renegades, all have their own vision.

Same thing is apparently happening with Guard.



i think this is the heart of the problem for codex: CSM. its trying to be too many things at once.

far more so than the loyalists, the traitor legions are wildly divergent in how they are structured and operate in the lore. we have several, almost polar opposites within us, form those that worship chaos, to those that use it as a tool, those that focus on tactical tricks and confusion to those that eschew all subtlety in favour of raw violence, those that worship all the the gods to those to worship just one to those that worship no god.

its just too broad a umbrella to fit under a single book. it was done in 3.5, but arguably that only worked because the standards for sub factions in 3.5 were very minimal, and IIRC this was the basically the 1st time they'd made any meaningful rules distinctions for most of the undivided legions, as opposed to just being snazzy alternate paint jobs for a generic "chaos marine" list.


it also doesnt help that thier are several different takes on what a CSM army SHOULD be like, with some prefering the vets of the Long War angle, wanting their CSM to be survivors of the Heresy, still toting their advanced 30K equipment and out to wreck revenge for that loss, while others prefer to push the demonic angle, with lots of deamon engines taking the place of imperial equipment. Others still like the Renegades angle of them being mostly recent or post heresy traitors, aligned with chaos to further their own goals.


I really dont know how youd square the circle here and reconcile this contradictory viewpoints, they pretty much have to come down and declare one version as the correct one and stick with it.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I didn't start CSM until 6th and while the Codex lacked many things, I think it did well in some aspects.
The Boon Table, while 66 options long, was fun IMO. Killing an enemy Character then getting something from an extra Attack to flat out ascending to Daemon Prince was great fun and to me felt like combat and challenges especially had a sense of achievement or urgency. An Aspiring Champion killing a Guardsman Sergeant and attaining Daemonhood, then a Chaos Lord killing the enemy Warlord and only getting +1 Attack was always funny IMO. I also loved the Warp Storm table from the Daemon Codex. Both portrayed the fickle and cruel nature of being a servant of the Dark Gods really well.
Marks were fun and useful, although considering some cases (Nurgle Bikes/Biker Lords), I can understand why they were changed.
Traitor Legions was great. Loved it. More of that please but in a normal Codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Spoiler:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So in a very similar vein to my thread about how Eldar have seemingly almost always got the poopy end of the stick, Chaos is in desperate need of some love.

Right now, it’s just not feeling especially Chaotic. Now, for absolute clarity? I do not currently play Chaos. Yes I did play Chaos during then 3.5 era. No I am not advocating for anything like a Codex as genuinely overpowered as the 3.5 version. Nor do I think it’s reasonable to expect the absolute perfection for a long time player that was Imperial Armour 13. That was a crazy volume for Lost & Damned. So many options, once you read it (and especially the background) you were best off deciding on a theme, then selecting your units.

But Chaos in mainstream 40K? It’s just so….boring. It’s too organised. Not enough bizarreness. Not enough freedom of list building. Background wise, the forces of Chaos are described as Warbands. Literal cults of personality, with underlings/aspirants following a Warlord. Instead, we get a sort of “we are still Legions, we are!!!!

It’s just not doing them any service. Like, at all. Perhaps appropriately, as a tabletop force they feel like they’ve lost their soul.

Now, the aesthetic and just models wise I’m presently quite happy with them. But again I’m not a Chaos player, so treat that accordingly.

I’d rather see them be a bit more character heavy. Not necessarily Hero Hammer in terms of raw tabletop power, but perhaps a greater variety of squad leaders. I feel that might go some way to adding variety, and better represent their background feel.

Example? Main CSM Codex? If I’m picking a Cult Unit (so Rubric, Bereserkers and so on), let me have a choice of unit champions. Perhaps an Aspirant suits my plans just fine. Maybe I’d want them to be an Exalted Champion leading their most loyal/fanatical/snotty/bonkers followers. And let me have options for their particular war gear. Perhaps even link the unit’s options to their particular standing. After all, someone clearly In Favour with the Powers That Be are successful, so we can reasonably expect their followers to be better equipped as they persuade/strong arm/outright murder their way to better equipment/

And for goodness (badness?) sake? Let my Veterans of the Long War (as in extant survivors of the Heresy era) feel like it. Beyond a single buffed stat. They’re Astartes with centuries if not millennia of experience. They should be super handy in a fight. But don’t introduce them whilst ditching bog standard CSM, because there will always be relatively newer turncoats in the fold.

Give me mutations back. Not simply Possessed. But squads demonstrating useful mutations.

Give me the option of a full on Jamboree of Horror Chaos back - as a valid option alongside plainer variations, Cultists and Daemons.

Now? Balancing this within the Codex? Don’t look at me. But if it can be done? Knowing you’re up against a Chaos force will mean something again, as what Bob, Baz, Dave and Daz might field as Chaos players could be wildly different.

Just…..make Chaos properly Chaotic again.

Please.


I'm going to go out on a limb here & predict you'll be disapointed.
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just…..make Chaos properly Chaotic again.

Please.


This is a fine line to walk, and one most CSM fans are wary of. We've received innumerable "chaotic" rules options in the past that more often than not end up just screwing us over. The pros rarely outweigh the cons. In recent years GW have firmly stepped back from granularity, so I don't think many of the desires in the OP are realistic. Rules bloat is bad enough as is, I'd rather they just concentrate on getting the important bits right (god-specific marks, etc) that help to make us what we are. There's simply no way the Chaos we know and love in the lore could ever be fully represented without a veritable library of books to back it up. Once you start adding in weird stuff, where do you stop? No faction is as hard to nail down as we are, and 9th has enough moving parts as is.

I don't think Chaos (CSM, at least) actually need a lot of work. Feels to me like we're closer to having a good codex now than at any point since 3.5. The F&F rules, for example, are strong, fun and flavourful. DG and TS have solid and thematic books of their own. World Eaters are apparently on the horizon, and the Emperor's Children will surely follow at some point. Maybe LATD/R&H will get something in the future (reliable rumours certainly indicate a lot of cultist-type units in the next CSM book), maybe the Dark Mechanicum will get something in the future. Who knows. It's not perfect (give me my fething daemons back, GW) but it's still very close to being something I can unreservedly enjoy.

What we need is, for the first time in nearly 20 years, GW to release a codex for CSM which can stand on its own two feet without needing addition after addition after addition to replicate the kind of flavour we had in 3.5. We know they can (occasionally) write good rules for CSM: 7th's Traitor Legions & 8th's Faith & Fury show that. Give us a good book rather than a gakky book with a good bandage rapped around it.

My own wishlisting/desires for the short-mid-term, which I sincerely hope are all realistic:

*WE & EC to get split off into their own books
*Marks to mean something (make e.g. a Nurgle-aligned CSM army feel like a Nurgle-aligned CSM army)
*Bring back Daemonic Upgrades for characters, so we can depict how far along the Path to Glory they are
*Bring back Veteran Abilities as a kind of paid upgrade system

Combined with what we already know we're getting from statline changes to marines & daemon engines, and some kind of decent monofaction bonus, and I'd be very happy with the above. I just hope that GW doesn't screw it up.

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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, CSM needs some sort of work. But they probably need a better vision for CSM. Right now, its just a chaotic mess of trying to be everything and succeeding at doing nothing well. They basically end up as inferior space marines in every way.

Splitting off into the cult marine books is a step in the right direction. Tsons and Deathguard are flavorful. I picked up both armies and am having fun with them.

But this means that the generic CSM codex needs a better vision. For a time, I thought demon engines were the way to go. But vehicle spam itself seems like a very skewed way to play the list, and it hardly represents the CSM faction. At most Demon Engines should only be a part of the CSM identity if they really want to create that distinction and flavor.

I think the weapons a CSM army uses on its infantry are a missed opportunity. GW could have given CSM unique special weapons that come with a new model range. Fluff wise, it would fit so well. Their weapons have been warped by Chaos, so they are now totally different. You can either use a bolter, or you can use a mutated bolter that shoots str 4, AP 1 shots that does an additional hit on 6s or something for +1 point.

Then release a new box of CSM marines that use the new mutated bolters. Bam, suddenly, every CSM player wants to buy new CSM marines. Instead, CSM marines have been using bolters for decades... Not even sure why ... are they so worried that loyalist marine players will cry about bolters ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 00:52:33


 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Where certain options should fall within Force Organisation is definitely a good bit of the discussion. But not being a present Chaos player not something I feel I should weigh in on.

But I still stand by letting Chaos players have an option of squad leader back

Are you talking about making Aspiring Champions more than just +1 attack and +1 leadership? Would something like Death Guard's Deadly Pathogens and Thousand Sons Legion Command work for that? Something that allows you to make a squads Champion more than just a slightly better version of their squad mates? I expect us to get something similar to these. We'll call them "Abilities for Veterans" for now.

xerxeskingofking wrote:it also doesnt help that thier are several different takes on what a CSM army SHOULD be like, with some prefering the vets of the Long War angle, wanting their CSM to be survivors of the Heresy, still toting their advanced 30K equipment and out to wreck revenge for that loss, while others prefer to push the demonic angle, with lots of deamon engines taking the place of imperial equipment. Others still like the Renegades angle of them being mostly recent or post heresy traitors, aligned with chaos to further their own goals.

I don't see how doing all of these is difficult. For veterans of the Heresy, just remove the silly Martial Legacy rule from the Legions, so that they can use Heresy era units more freely than loyalists. For daemon engine heavy armies, just make a couple more daemon engines that fill other roles than punchy/shooty daemon engine. Renegades is a little harder. Maybe something like GSC's Broodbrothers rule, that allows Renegades to take some Loyalist equipment in exchange for not being able to take some CSM stuff?
   
Made in us
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Chaos Space Marines are lacking from several angles, and none of them are going to be resolved quickly.

First off, we have at the moment 4 Codexes, 2 of which have established a pattern that needs to be completed, one of which just needs to be brought in line with 9th edition, and one that is woefully bad from multiple angles, both fluff and power wise.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons established the pattern. We need Emperor's Children and World Eaters. These just need to happen, in much the same way that Age of Sigmar runs the gamut from Disciples of Tzeentch to Hedonites of Slaanesh, we need to complete that list on the 40k side, even if just to complete the collection.

The Chaos Daemons codex isn't awful, it just needs the 9th edition treatment and a handful of resin things updated to plastic.

The standard Chaos Space Marine Codex is a mish-mash. CSM got 2 Codexes in 8th edition, just so they could sell us one at the start and then another when Shadowspear and Vigilus came out. There are rules across Vigilus and Psychic Awakening that should just BE in the Codex, and then there's the fact that we still don't have an update to 2 wounds, despite there being a method to do that: FAQs and Chapter Approved, but GW can't be arsed to do it. Not to mention that despite many opportunities, some of the Legion traits are simply horribly underpowered, and even stratagems can't make them good. They've also been forced to squeeze in stuff for Emperor's Children and World Eaters that should have been moved into their own codexes and fleshed out by now. So on a rules standpoint, CSM are just... a mish-mash.

The model range is also a mish-mash, with some great winners, but some absolute losers that should have been updated years ago. Setting aside Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers, our HQ units are a mix, some resin, some 15 year old plastic, some modern plastic. The Warpsmith is still on a 25mm base, ffs. Now, yes, there are rumors that we're finally getting some new units coming in 2022, but the rumored units still don't cover what we need. Here's the list of outdated units, still available on the website:

Lucius the Eternal - Resin
Noise Marines - not even a full unit, just a lumpy resin upgrade kit
Huron Blackheart - Resin
Khorne Berzerkers - I think they're approaching 30 years old?
Warpsmith - A fine resin kit, but still on a 25mm base
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack - Resin and with a horribly outdated design scheme
Chaos Terminator Lord/Sorcerer - Plastic, but as old as the previous Terminator kit, with all the same design flaws
Possessed - Barely holding in there
Bikers - an ancient kit that shows a multitude of gaping flaws. You need green stuff to fill some of the gaps in the design, despite being plastic.
Chaos Spawn - Not the worst kit out there, but rapidly showing its age
Mutilators - A tragedy of a unit. Awful design, resin, redundant role on the table
Nurgle Daemon Prince - I honestly don't know why they still sell this
Defiler - It's the Defiler
All of the Space Marine Vehicles with a Spikey Sprue - Please GW, please update the rhino frame.
Chaos Lord - Our only modern chaos lord option and it's a leftover from Blackstone Fortress with zero options

MIA units:
Chosen - rumored to be coming, but wow.
Cultists - Only option is the Blackstone Fortress ones, and they don't even fit the rules without buying multiple boxes of the same push-fit models.
Obliterators - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options
Venomcrawler - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options
Greater Possessed - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options
Master of Possession - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options

So not only do you have a bunch of ancient kits that need updating, you also have a run of units that are straight up missing or stuck behind a monopose Start Collecting, which is particularly frustrating.

Then you have the lore standpoint. Even splitting the galaxy in half, Chaos has never had the limelight. Vigilus was all about Calgar outwitting Abaddon. Psychic Awakening has chaos running rampant but only as a footnote antagonist. If it's not Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Black Legion, it's pretty much MIA. I'm not the biggest lore buff, so I'm sure there's little side panels and snippets about the Night Lords and Iron Warriors fighting here and there, but when was the last time they took center stage?

Subpar lore that makes Chaos Marines feel like an unthreatening footnote, rules that don't reflect their Chaotic aspect and that still haven't been updated to modern types meaning only a handful of builds work and you're still obligated to use Slaanesh Obliterators (which only come in sets of 2 out of the Start Collecting) if you care to be competitive, and models that are a horrible mish-mash of ancient outdated designs and modern no-option kits.

Let me ask, Games Workshop, if YOU don't care about your premier 'bad guy', why are your fans supposed to care?

The fixes, unfortunately, are just going to take a LONG TIME, and all that time we're just going to be in this limbo. We've already been waiting a long time for a lot of things. Chaos and Eldar have that in common, but at least Eldar can still run competitive lists.

GW needs to start by getting kits out and updated. They did it with Orks, they did it with Sisters of Battle, they can do it with Chaos Marines. New Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, and Warpsmith like the rumors say is a start, but it's not enough. We need to get a proper Obliterator kit at the VERY LEAST. A kit of 3 of them with at least a couple arm or head swaps would go a LONG way. Get the Cultists out, update Huron Blackheart, the Chaos Lord in Terminator armor, and the Jump Pack lord. Make up your mind if you want to keep Mutilators, and if you keep them, don't do them dirty like you did Obliterators. Give them a 3-pack kit with a few options.

Get all the space marine vehicles with spikes updated. A new (older style) rhino frame would be a good start, just like you did with the Sisters of Battle Castigator and other stuff. And then, for feths sake, get the Emperor's Children and World Eaters out into the world. I know you want to make the primarch releases feel 'special' but the opposite is happening. The Chaos Primarchs don't feel special at all, they feel like a chore to play with and against, and not everyone even wants a primarch. Some people just want new Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines.

And for the love of god, when you change the wounds, toughness, or other key stats of space marines, don't let Chaos Marines lag behind for over a year.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 01:45:31


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

"Today we're announcing a great new Combat Patrol box with 5 brand new Possessed, 20 new Cultists, a new Chaos Lord in Power Armour and a Chaos Rhino. Sadly, everything except the Rhino is pushfit. Enjoy!"


Be careful what you wish for...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/08 03:44:50


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





I am incredibly excited for new sculpts, same rules, these are the things that drive the enthusiasm of the CSM community.

Chaos, after all, is not about change.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I am incredibly excited for new sculpts, same rules, these are the things that drive the enthusiasm of the CSM community.

Chaos, after all, is not about change.


What? When there is a greater chao god called Tzeentch that is all about Change ? lol
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Today we're announcing a great new Combat Patrol box with 5 brand new Possessed, 20 new Cultists, a new Chaos Lord in Power Armour and a Chaos Rhino. Sadly, everything except the Rhino is pushfit. Enjoy!"


Be careful what you wish for...



Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.


I was expecting a new Ahriman sculpt of him riding his staff like a pogo stick for the TS codex, this edition is dead to me.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




My predictions as a 14 year long chaos player ( I am still a noob compared to the OG chaos vets ) are as follows.

Lose the one or two OP traits we have currently and replaced with nothing even close to being on par.

More new models while ancient ones still remain un updated. Bezerks, I am looking at you.

The classic nerf/buffing to make some units more sales attractive than others.

A new and *improved* Boons table.

And here is the kicker. Chaos Marines will stay at one wound. Why? GW has had a year to update CM with a 2 wound profile. They have not. No company is so lazy as to not update them......because.....lazy. Nope. There a reason. And this is it.

Now I hope I am wrong. I really really do. But I do not think I will be. Here is hoping.

Also, chaos renegades and chaos legions need two codexs for all the reasons previously mentioned.

Chaos Renegades should keep much of their imperial load out, lose some of the rarer and harder to support options and have a splash of chaotic demon stuff to make up for the loss of rarer equipment. I would love to see a scaling table that tells you how old your renegade warband is and how outdated your tech will be and how much demon funk you get. Of course this wont happen, ever.

The real problem, as I see it, is that Chaos lost its identity with the no model no rules age. It was faction that thrived on kit bashing. GW could not produce enough options so left it up to the players. And that was glorious. Now its a boring hodgepodge of starter kits and horribly dated models.

Once more. I do hope I am being overtly negative. But GW had 14 years to drive me to this state. I started as a young spawnling with bright eyes and love. Now, my chaos forces have been in the closet since the start of 8th with the exception of 1ksons which I shelved 7 months ago.

TLDR. More options. Split legions and Renegades. Redo old models. Stop adding. Start fixing. We do not need Demon Engine #12 and yet another HQ.
   
Made in de
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Nickin' 'ur stuff

Table wrote:
[...]

TLDR. More options. Split legions and Renegades. Redo old models. Stop adding. Start fixing. We do not need Demon Engine #12 and yet another HQ.


This! So much this! Go away with meaningless additions! Also, if you can have red bloody melee Marines and grey wolfy melee Marines and soon black pious melee Marines, why can't you have two "undivided" Chaos books, one for legions one for renegades.


Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Waaaghbert wrote:
Table wrote:
[...]

TLDR. More options. Split legions and Renegades. Redo old models. Stop adding. Start fixing. We do not need Demon Engine #12 and yet another HQ.


This! So much this! Go away with meaningless additions! Also, if you can have red bloody melee Marines and grey wolfy melee Marines and soon black pious melee Marines, why can't you have two "undivided" Chaos books, one for legions one for renegades.



Call me either mad or a visionary, but you could do renegades with a supplement. It would need to reference some units from both codex chaos marines and codex space marines and cause rage for it, but it's the simplest method.

Replace faction keywords for all units with blah, imagine a fast attack with see codex marines for land speeders and assault marines then reference chaos space marines for spawn and bikes for example.
   
 
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