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As an EC player all of my sonic weapons are/can be assault weapons and my terminators are armed with combi-bolters (rapid fire weapons).

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


I feel like this rule was taken from somewhere else after the fluff section had been written and they changed the rule name to force it to fit.

It's a hack to give flamer weapons extra hits because they can't benefit from the exploding 6 rules.

Yes, it is. But its also
a) weird and out of nowhere
b) not particularly available on chaos units (well, not anymore, anyway)
c) way out of line with the odds of exploding 6s (statistically, if you have 6 shots, you'd expect 1 six (and 2 failures) for a total of 5 hits. Flamers averaging 3.5 hits (and shots) now jump straight to 5.5. On the rare occasion you're allowed to have 2 flamers, your 7 shots/hits (much closer to 6 shots from other guns) jump to 11)

It's "weird and out of nowhere" because it's something that they threw in after they realized that "Spiky Doctrines" didn't do anything for weapons that auto-hit. Probably after the DE liquifier debacle reminded them that auto-hiting weapons exist.

Just more evidence that they've been working on this codex piecemeal since the start (or before) of 9th. And they've refused to fundamentally rethink or change anything major as they went along. Just adding more "stuff" here and there, while leaving anything already "done" (like datasheets and the options within them) the same as before whatever paradigm shift that the current "new stuff" was meant to "fix". Thus this mess.

Daedalus81 wrote:You guys are going to mine all the salt at this rate!

Well, what do you expect? There's very little redeeming here.

Here, I'll throw you a bone: "Hey look! They actually made (Havoc) autocannons (slightly) better". Huzzah!

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Along with the Noise Marines I'm taking a max unit of Legionaires with bolt pistol and chain sword (sgt has plasma pistol). Originally they were also Noise Marines but with losing Kakophani and them being exactly the same as a marked Legionaire unit but 15 points more expensive they became Legionaires.

My general list is: Daemon Prince with wings, Termie Lord, Termie Sorcerer, HtH Legionaires max unit, Noise Marines 2x10 2x5, Termies (chainfist, hvy flamer) marked and, 3 oblits. Comes to exactly 2000 points.

I'll go with this for my first few games I think:


A bit sad that a unit of 5 raptors with meltas or flamers cost more then a Venomcrawler but it makes me want to try this more "demonkin" heavy list.

Your math is slightly off. You're paying for an extra sonic blaster in each of your units.

Do we know what a "tainted chainaxe" is?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The fact of the matter is that most of Chaos's problems would be solved by having an extra sprue of options in each of the kits.

An extra sprue of weapons and heads in the Terminator kit.
An extra sprue of ranged weapons and a few extra melee weapons in the Chosen kit.

I would pay 80 dollars for each of those kits if they actually let me build what I wanted to build, because it would still be cheaper than buying 2 of the kit to fish for weapons. People would rage at such a price increase for something that SHOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE UNIT, and I understand that, but that's where we are.

Are they going to do that? Well, we can only pray that Kill Team will give us a solution when they get into Elites, as aside from the Cadian Shock Troop box and the situation with Imperial Knights, Kill Team is the only time GW have added an extra sprue to a kit to represent more options.

But then, here's the other issue. GW's likely going to start hyping 10th edition and whatever storyline they've churned up for it. You may be thinking "Oh, that means this codex is going to be irrelevant in a year when 10th drops next Summer!"

To which I say: Oh you sweet summer child. There's just as much of a chance that this is the codex we will have for the next 3+ years. There might not be another Chaos Marine release outside of World Eaters and, if we're lucky, Emperor's Children, until deep into 10th edition, when they're going to be prepping for 11th edition! We simply don't know, there's too much up in the air to see that far ahead.

After all, it took nearly 3 years to get a 2nd wound. Now watch as the new Space Marine Codex gets the new flamer rule (+2 attacks for flame weapons, which will make a lot more sense for many of their units), more attacks across the board (because how dare Chaos Marines have any stat advantages) and who knows what else.

So in the worst case you have:
1. Kits that will never be updated and never give us the options to run them the way people want them to.
2. Rules that we'll be stuck with for another full edition cycle
3. Anything special we thought we had will be bogarted by the next inevitable Space Marine update

Best case scenario:
1. When Kill Team Elites comes out, Terminators will get an extra sprue of weapon options for a premium price
2. The Codex gets an early or mid-edition update if Emperor's Children isn't planned for 10th, meaning EC will still be in the book for a while longer
3. Chaos Marines might simply be the faction of many attacks at 1 damage to differentiate us from others, which would be neat for a change
4. The update comes with new Huron, Bikers, and updated rhino-chassis vehicles to finally make a cohesively designed faction

Either way, we're stuck with this for now and the future is incredibly uncertain. Having been waiting for GW to treat Chaos Marines half-decent since 5th edition, I don't have a lot of faith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vargheist wrote:
Do we know what a "tainted chainaxe" is?

It's just a chainaxe. IIRC +1 str, ap-1 damage 1 or something.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Noise Marines x5: 21x5 (base) + 5x5 (Sonic blasters) + 1x15 (blastmaster) + 1x10 (doom siren) + 5 (tainted chainaxe) + 5 (icon): 165 Pts

Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Noise Marines x5: 21x5 (base) + 5x5 (Sonic blasters) + 1x15 (blastmaster) + 1x10 (doom siren) + 5 (tainted chainaxe) + 5 (icon): 165 Pts

Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.

Hey, they've got... Um...

What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.

Also, to the sentiment that GW is "rushing this book out", of course they are.

It's the start of the new fiscal year, Horus Heresy is their big seller this year in place of a new edition, and they're not sure how well that's going to do this summer, so expect a LOT to be rushed out as quickly as possible so they can pad this summer with as much profit as they can.

I've heard directly that GW is tightening the purse strings and chopping out any excess spending on the back-end prepping for an economic downturn. What does that mean for us? Well, not much. Just that they're likely going to tempt us with as much product as they can pump out.

drbored wrote:
Also, to the sentiment that GW is "rushing this book out", of course they are.

It's the start of the new fiscal year, Horus Heresy is their big seller this year in place of a new edition, and they're not sure how well that's going to do this summer, so expect a LOT to be rushed out as quickly as possible so they can pad this summer with as much profit as they can.

I've heard directly that GW is tightening the purse strings and chopping out any excess spending on the back-end prepping for an economic downturn. What does that mean for us? Well, not much. Just that they're likely going to tempt us with as much product as they can pump out.

Except... they didn't pump it out. They done the exact opposite with a book only launch.

I get 161 points per unit that Dreadfully Hopeful plans to use. He added in the cost of a 5th sonic blaster when he's only using 4. Don't forget that's only an MSU of 5 models. Fully kitted out the unit's cost would be 291 for 10 Noise Marines (9 blasters, 1 blastmaster, 1 doom siren, 1 dread axe, 1 icon).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Noise Marines x5: 21x5 (base) + 5x5 (Sonic blasters) + 1x15 (blastmaster) + 1x10 (doom siren) + 5 (tainted chainaxe) + 5 (icon): 165 Pts

Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.

Hey, they've got... Um...

What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.

Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.

drbored wrote:
I

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vargheist wrote:
Do we know what a "tainted chainaxe" is?

It's just a chainaxe. IIRC +1 str, ap-1 damage 1 or something.

For 5 points? The cost is same as power sword/axe/maul so I would expect something extra.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Noise Marines x5: 21x5 (base) + 5x5 (Sonic blasters) + 1x15 (blastmaster) + 1x10 (doom siren) + 5 (tainted chainaxe) + 5 (icon): 165 Pts

Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.

Hey, they've got... Um...

What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.

Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.

Noise Marines are 21 PPM base. That's what I'm talking about-they're 1 point more expensive than an Intercessor, when armed with a Bolter.
Why?

What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.

Because they baked in the cost of the mark at 3 points per model for a unit of 5 and were too thick to realise that meant you were paying for it twice when you took a unit of ten.

It really is that simple. The people writing rules for 40k do not understand that although 5*18+15 = 5*21, that does not mean that 10*18+15 = 10*21.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.

It's because they made the price for optional Marks on a "per unit" basis, while "baking it in" for units where they aren't an option, like Noise Marines. 3.5 priced Marks on a "per model" basis, thus avoiding this issue. Better codex design, through and through.

Andy Chambers and Pete Gaines, where are you when we need you?!

No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).

No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Noise Marines x5: 21x5 (base) + 5x5 (Sonic blasters) + 1x15 (blastmaster) + 1x10 (doom siren) + 5 (tainted chainaxe) + 5 (icon): 165 Pts

Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.

Hey, they've got... Um...

What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.

Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.

Noise Marines are 21 PPM base. That's what I'm talking about-they're 1 point more expensive than an Intercessor, when armed with a Bolter.
Why?

Huh, you're right. They have the extra attack baked in instead of it being a rule like with Loyalists, and I'm not even sure they had higher LD (which GW overvalues). Then of course they fight first.

Yeah that's a tough call. I definitely wouldn't take them as an Elite slot for ANY Legion I can tell you that much. They get a saving grace as a troop choice I guess for EC?

It doesn't seem they were particularly well designed to be frank, which fits the rest of the codex as we've seen sooooo...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).

No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.

I see. My mistake mathwise but the question remains why the point difference for 2 identical units. Or is the answer, "Typical GW."?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

Voss wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:
I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.

For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.

Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.

Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?

It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.

Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

Between the above and the strange exclusion of the Traitor Guard, I really can't help but wonder if the book was just rushed to the printers whilst the actual writing was barely out of the draft stages. I know we comment a lot on GW's general incompetence and modern inconsistency, but this feels like something else entirely, as if they got half-way through rewriting it before being told they needed to get it formatted and sent to the printers NOW. Bin Guy was left desperately scribbling in the most recent ideas off the top of his head.

Then again, Sisters Novitiates got revealed very shortly after their most recent codex released didn't they? So I guess there is a precedent for it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Noise Marines x5: 21x5 (base) + 5x5 (Sonic blasters) + 1x15 (blastmaster) + 1x10 (doom siren) + 5 (tainted chainaxe) + 5 (icon): 165 Pts

Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.

Hey, they've got... Um...

What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.

Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.

Noise Marines are 21 PPM base. That's what I'm talking about-they're 1 point more expensive than an Intercessor, when armed with a Bolter.
Why?

They have a baked in Mark of Slaanesh for "always fights first" that worth at least 1 pt.

Is “Fights First” and a worse gun and slot really worth 1 PPM?

If they had more melee, then sure. But without that…

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I don't see why everyone is upset, I mean the book will be otiose in a few months once 10th edition comes out.

You're using that word for evil Kid! That thread gave you too much power!!!

UGH. I had to Google it. I thought Kid was having a stroke or something, but no, I'm just ignorant! This is terrible!

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I don't see why everyone is upset, I mean the book will be otiose in a few months once 10th edition comes out.

You're using that word for evil Kid! That thread gave you too much power!!!

UGH. I had to Google it. I thought Kid was having a stroke or something, but no, I'm just ignorant! This is terrible!

Not gonna lie--I had to google it also. Turns out (after looking at the pronunciation) it is a word I've heard and used but never seen actually spelled out.

Reminds me of the first time I saw "rendezvous" spelled out (I took Spanish in high school; not French! )

 Tastyfish wrote:
I've seen some suggestions that this book was due out some time ago as it's also missing traitor guard, and misses out some of the 40k options the new daemon prince has (it's the old model in the book).

I wouldn't be shocked. All of the HH stuff is marked 2021. Putting two and two together, I surmise that HH was due out last summer or early fall when the original leaks occurred. We know from the leaker that they had a 12 month back up on releases so it's likely chaos and Eldar were also late to the party.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Along with the Noise Marines I'm taking a max unit of Legionaires with bolt pistol and chain sword (sgt has plasma pistol). Originally they were also Noise Marines but with losing Kakophani and them being exactly the same as a marked Legionaire unit but 15 points more expensive they became Legionaires.

My general list is: Daemon Prince with wings, Termie Lord, Termie Sorcerer, HtH Legionaires max unit, Noise Marines 2x10 2x5, Termies (chainfist, hvy flamer) marked and, 3 oblits. Comes to exactly 2000 points.

I like that list alot. For the MSU Blastmaster squads your still taking sonic blasters? You could save some point by taking bolters on them. Also how do you feel about Haocs with 4X Reaper for 145 pts?

I'm sure that Masters of Kakophani is in there somewhere for free marks and Noise Marine troops. Not that they haven't forgotten before and had to FAQ it. They've had to FAQ the second Blastmaster in before as well, so we can start writing in about it once the codex drops.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I don't see why everyone is upset, I mean the book will be otiose in a few months once 10th edition comes out.

You're using that word for evil Kid! That thread gave you too much power!!!

UGH. I had to Google it. I thought Kid was having a stroke or something, but no, I'm just ignorant! This is terrible!

It's a reference to Tom Kirby (former GW CEO)'s infamous remark about market research.

"These things are otiose in a niche"

I had to look it up too so now I have to use it in conversation.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).

No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.

I see. My mistake mathwise but the question remains why the point difference for 2 identical units. Or is the answer, "Typical GW."?

Yup. "Typical GW".

Arbitrator wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:
I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.

For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.

Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.

Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?

It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.

Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

Between the above and the strange exclusion of the Traitor Guard, I really can't help but wonder if the book was just rushed to the printers whilst the actual writing was barely out of the draft stages. I know we comment a lot on GW's general incompetence and modern inconsistency, but this feels like something else entirely, as if they got half-way through rewriting it before being told they needed to get it formatted and sent to the printers NOW. Bin Guy was left desperately scribbling in the most recent ideas off the top of his head.

Then again, Sisters Novitiates got revealed very shortly after their most recent codex released didn't they? So I guess there is a precedent for it.

Possibly. I think that they've been mucking about with it since before 9th edition released, changing things up as the edition has moved along, and they needed a final pass to make everything "cohesive". But that never happened, for whatever reason. Having the higher ups declare that it needs to be "finished NOW" and sent to the printers would be a possible explanation for that.

Question: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just removed.