Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
This is exactly the reason why, even if I do like a lot of their models, like the Contemptor, Spartan or Leviathan, I've given up hope of ever playing the games again. 40k especially seems to be in a really volatile place, where massive changes to the Command Point rules, wild points value swings, and poorly-conceived band-aid fixes like Armour of Contempt are delivered in annual or semiannual balance patches, like this was Overwatch or something, and not a wargame where committing to, building, and painting an army list can take from weeks to months to years. I think it's absolute madness and it staggers me that not everyone agrees with that assessment. I get that the game can be fun regardless of the lunacy involved, but that doesn't make it any more sane.
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
This is exactly the reason why, even if I do like a lot of their models, like the Contemptor, Spartan or Leviathan, I've given up hope of ever playing the games again. 40k especially seems to be in a really volatile place, where massive changes to the Command Point rules, wild points value swings, and poorly-conceived band-aid fixes like Armour of Contempt are delivered in annual or semiannual balance patches, like this was Overwatch or something, and not a wargame where committing to, building, and painting an army list can take from weeks to months to years. I think it's absolute madness and it staggers me that not everyone agrees with that assessment. I get that the game can be fun regardless of the lunacy involved, but that doesn't make it any more sane.
On top of that, they have the gall to charge you money for it, and the books are as much as a set of models. Which themselves aren't exactly cheap. Combined with the high turnover rate of rules, it doesn't seem feasible to continue supporting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/19 13:09:13
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
Yessss......that's my point. Either they're "free" or they're non-existent. Removed. Gone.
And I seriously doubt that they're "free". A pair of them definitely wouldn't be. So why can a Chaos Lord, for which the "official" model is only supplied with a thunder hammer and plasma pistol, be armed with a power maul, power fist, power axe, power sword, or a "tainted" chainaxe, but not lightning claws? And if they can have all of those things not provided in the "official" kit, then why no jump pack?
These rules do not stop kitbashing. They stop specific kitbashing. They're completely arbitrary. And completely idiotic. There appears to be no hard rules for what is or isn't allowed from unit to unit. There's no pattern. It's just whatever the writers were in the mood to allow when writing each datasheet.
On top of that, they have the gall to charge you money for it, and the books are as much as a set of models. Which themselves aren't exactly cheap.
Combined with the high turnover rate of rules, it doesn't seem feasible to continue supporting.
Indeed. And there isn't any way of knowing if the army I start building today is at all playable in the same way by the time I'm finished. It's not like MTG where creating your deck is usually a matter of some hours or days (if you have the cards) or weeks (if you need to buy them from somewhere). Making a 40k army takes a long time, and every unit that gets invalidated, especially if it's for stupid-ass reasons like ork warbosses no longer being allowed power claws, that's a lot of wasted time (since after all, you're always going to have an easier time finding opponents using the latest "standard" rules instead of accommodating Legends entries or homebrew, no matter how stupid the latest standard is).
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
This is exactly the reason why, even if I do like a lot of their models, like the Contemptor, Spartan or Leviathan, I've given up hope of ever playing the games again. 40k especially seems to be in a really volatile place, where massive changes to the Command Point rules, wild points value swings, and poorly-conceived band-aid fixes like Armour of Contempt are delivered in annual or semiannual balance patches, like this was Overwatch or something, and not a wargame where committing to, building, and painting an army list can take from weeks to months to years. I think it's absolute madness and it staggers me that not everyone agrees with that assessment. I get that the game can be fun regardless of the lunacy involved, but that doesn't make it any more sane.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
I think his question is basically 'What's on the melee weapon list?' with the corollary of 'who, exactly, gets access to that list beyond Noise Marine and Legionary champions?'
Yes, free stuff isn't in the points list, but it doesn't indicate access.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/19 14:47:58
Meanwhile my 30k books arrived, and even just a barebones cursory glance in the options list for a centurion (leutnant equvalent) yields an entry for 2 pages without even going into other upgrades.
Including but not limited to a bike, jetbike and the ever elusive jumppack.
NVM normal squads...
frankly its hard to believe that both rulesets are published and created by the same company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/19 15:00:07
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Seems like something's up - to only have the codex + dice up for pre-order seems to indicate that they might be having some model production or distribution issues. Would go to explain a bit of the weirdness about the long delay between model previews and codex release. Don't think that it explains the weirdness with the rules themselves, but it feels like there's something that went sideways during this process.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
Okay, this rule is actually reasonable.
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
This rule makes sense, from an in-universe perspective, and isn't really hard to remember or requiring of niggly details or anything.
Remnant of the Maraviglia: once per battle +1 attacks for models within 6" for 1 turn. Its used to allow re-roll all failed wounds range and melee. SKIP
Endless Grin: 6+++ save and if slain on 3+ on D6 you return with D3 wounds. It used to force -1 LD within 6", so it better? SKIP
Distortion: 2X strength profile, and a strength user profile but each hit counts at 2 hits. Its clipped off so we don't know the AP or damage for the profiles. MAYBE
Raiment Revulsive: friendly units within 6" can shoot and still perform an action, enemy units within 6" cannot start and action. Oof...it used to allow full re-rolls to hit, wound, and charge. TRASH
Armor of Abhorrence: 3" aura enemy units [except Titanic units] within cannot fallback on a 4+ D6 roll. It was the bearer could not be overwatched and 1 additional enemy model was forced to flee. GOOD
Fatal Sonancy: at the end on the movement phase select 1 enemy unit within 12" roll 6D6 for each 4+ they suffer 1 MW. Quite the glow up from Assault D6/S6/AP-2/Dam1, averaging 3 MW each turn. GOOD
SLAANESH RELIC:
Intoxicating Elixir: once per battle in the fight phase; +D3 attacks and you can't loose more than 3 wounds. It was +1S and +1 attack to your stat line, for +5 attacks of the game with better wounding. SKIP
I disagree with you on the Raiment. An aura that lets you action and shoot can be pretty decent.
Expecting stuff to have full wound rerolls in 9th is nuts. That part of the game is gone outside supreme commanders.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/19 17:23:04
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
Okay, this rule is actually reasonable.
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
This rule makes sense, from an in-universe perspective, and isn't really hard to remember or requiring of niggly details or anything.
Maybe, but... it just feels unnecessary.
I don't see how being up close and personal, and therefore feeling the very emotions that serve to give the chaos gods their form and their power, would make a daemon prince any easier to kill.
How is it easier to banish beings formed from emotion in an environment of intense emotion than one more detached? Why is the slaaneshi daemon prince easier to kill as they writhe and dance around you, their very proximity filling your mind and senses with the alluring taste of pleasure, than putting a bullet in their head from 300 metres away?
It is a really stupid rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/19 17:33:16
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I'm a Tzeentch guy so the 6+++ prayer and W3 Chosen on top of the first failed save = 0 damage. If we can still do two prayers then the transhitroll ability on top makes for some really tough models and I'm here for it.
I also like the Wanton rules overlapping on weapons so that Rapid Fire is benefitting most of the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/19 18:00:42
2022/06/19 18:14:56
Subject: Re:Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Thariinye wrote: Seems like something's up - to only have the codex + dice up for pre-order seems to indicate that they might be having some model production or distribution issues. Would go to explain a bit of the weirdness about the long delay between model previews and codex release. Don't think that it explains the weirdness with the rules themselves, but it feels like there's something that went sideways during this process.
I agree, this is the golden goose week for selling the new stuff with the book generally and they're letting the ship sail. Not sure what they're so adamant on sabotaging themselves with this faction/release.
In honesty the codex coming out on its own (well, with the combat patrol) looks more like a panic release to cover themselves (content in CA & WD) rather than a planned and controlled roll out.
2022/06/19 18:21:27
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
I think his question is basically 'What's on the melee weapon list?' with the corollary of 'who, exactly, gets access to that list beyond Noise Marine and Legionary champions?'
Yes, free stuff isn't in the points list, but it doesn't indicate access.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2022/06/19 18:58:58
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
I just need a summary of the Red Corsair stuff besides the Strats (which we've seen 4 of). That determines if my dude keels getting used as a BT Chapter Master with Breath Of The Throne or has a slightly new lease on life doing new stuff.
Also does it seem Cypher can be thrown in any Chaos army without breaking requirements for Wanton?
2022/06/19 19:00:44
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
1: Has anyone seen the rules for Raptors? Do they have the same idiotic "only 1 of each special weapon" rule as Legionaries?
2: And Harkon. Does he have some variation on the "Agent of Chaos" rule? Because if he doesn't, then only Black Legion can have a character with a jump pack. And if he does, then the only way for any other Legion to get one, is to use a Black Legion character in their army. And either of those situations would be utterly disgusting.
2022/06/19 19:08:18
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
Warcom. In the article for the Killteam box in which the Traitor Guardsmen are one of the two teams, they specifically mentioned that the Traitor Guardsmen would "make a good addition to a CSM army".
2022/06/19 19:12:05
Subject: Chaos Space Marine codex rumours (pretty much everything leaked, everything was true)
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
We don't know what traitor guard is just yet, unless there was a leaked page from the CSM book detailing it.
They made a big to do about the Blooded Kill-Team though. I fully expect there to be something letting you run them alongside of CSM...but it might be in the IG book rather than CSM.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/19 19:14:00
~4100
~1660
