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Hey guys! Lately I've been tinkering on a deathguard list.
Reading up on them, it seems that IF you want to keep it very fluffy, They should have very few, if any, and most of their tactics should be infantry based... Also making heavy use of terminator armour, and there are dreads mentioned in their fluff.

So fluffwise, the a-okay units to use would be demon princess, plaguemarines, terminators and dreadnaughts.
Also greater and lesser demons. No jump packs or bikes.

You also have the sacred number of multipliers by 7. ie squads of plaguemarines of 7, 14, or even 21 if you attach an IC.
T4 (5) terminators in groups of 7...

Perhaps keeping a terminator unit or two in reserve, to deep-strike to any plaguemarine squad who's starting to look like it's facing more than it can handle. (no scatter thanks to icon)...

So, my question is, can the deathguard, under these premises survive in todays mechanized meta? And if so, how do we pull it off??

I know it says that they still have SOME of the no-no's I've mentioned above, which gives people the excuse to go rhino and vindicator heavy, but I'm wondering if we can make do without that fluff crutch?

//Calle

I'm not sure how successful it'd be, but Plague marines have a better chance than most with the T4(5).

High str and Low ap weapons will make foot sloggers cry.

Yeah, but looking at todaus meta, isn't it more usual that people bring a good mix of anti tank, which is usually single, or few-shot weapons, and anti-horde, which are usually plate, or many shots with a bad AP... I don't know if people are that prepared for "horde" styled MEQ?

You mean Like IG?
They pack like 15Melta guns, 3-6 plasma guns
Str10 ap4 large templates, and vendettas.

Or like

Razor Angels?

Wolf Missle spam?

taking a foot slogging list against mech is a terrible idea. especially when your foot sloggers cost way too much to waste like that

I don't know that it would be amazing. The problem is really st 8 spam that rules the 40k world. I have been warming to the idea of footslogging MEQ, but Chaos isn't the codex to do it with. Why? Because footsloggers need range coupled with durability to succeed. CSM already struggle with lack of range and aren't fast, even with Rhinos. There aren't really any "cheap" units to use to screen the Plague Marines in order to give them cover. Plague Marines are very durable to small arms fire (which is amazing) however will really feel the burn from missiles, lances, and really even psyfleman. No FNP is bad. Toughness 5 doesn't mean much in that scenario.

If you are dead set on it:

HQ: 2 Daemon Princes or 2 Lash Sorcerers

The Sorcerers can hide (big bonus) the Princes are stronger and hit harder. I'm assuming you want to stay fluffy though. 2 DP's with wings, MoN, and Warptime are still very strong.

DP-175
DP-175

Elites: I'd consider terminators heavily here. Even 3 humble termies with an autocannon can really help

3x termies w 1 reaper autocannon-115
3x termies w 1 reaper autocannon-115
3x termies w 1 reaper autocannon-115

Troops: Since you seem to want to stick with Death Guard:

5 PM: 2x Plasmaguns-145
5 PM: 2x Plasmaguns-145
5 PM: 2x Meltagun-135
5 PM: 2x Meltagun-135

HS: Obliterators are the only non AV unit. If you have an AV unit, it will be immediately killed because of lack of target saturation so:

2 Oblits-150
2 Oblits-150
2 Oblits-150

This comes out to 1705 and I think it's a decent start. You would have a low model count, but all of your models laugh at (mostly) small arms fire. The army also can engage opponents at range which is a plus.

To round this out to a nice 2k I'd consider making one of the termie squads bigger. If you bump one termie squad to:

7 termies: 1 reaper autocannon, 2 chainfists, 3 combi weapons (prob melta), 2 claws, and an icon of chaos glory -310

That takes the army to 1900. Maybe add in 1 PM per squad or just drop some points to get another 5 man melta squad.

Finally, you could drop the Princes entirely (gasp) and take Chaos Lords (double gasp) with wings that can move up the field hidden in units and then spilt off.

JGrand wrote:HS: Obliterators are the only non AV unit. If you have an AV unit, it will be immediately killed because of lack of target saturation so...

Not quite. If what you need is long ranged hitting power (and it is) Oblits are not efficient. You know who are? Havocs. They'll give you more bodies, and more guns.

You know, this idea could be really nasty. Terminators are inefficient as melee monsters because of our Landraiders. Footslogging along with the Plague Marines, you could afford to kit them to kill. Daemon Princes are an obvious choice, but I could see Lords or Sorcerers in TDA being an option.

Daemon Prince, MoN, Wings, Nurgle's Rot 165
3 Terminators, Reaper, Chainfist, 130
5 Terminators, IoN, 2 Chainfists, Reaper, 240
7 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, 181
7 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, 181
10 Plague Marines, 230
7 Havocs, 4 MLs, 185
7 Havocs, 4 MLs, 185
1497

Just something I threw together. Not sure about the block of 10 Plaguers or the 3 Terminators, but min squads of 5 running everywhere just don't look good on the board.

Not quite. If what you need is long ranged hitting power (and it is) Oblits are not efficient. You know who are? Havocs. They'll give you more bodies, and more guns.

Damn. I knew another veteran Chaos player could give some input here Havoks could be amazing. I think the autocannon Havoks would be best.

You know, this idea could be really nasty. Terminators are inefficient as melee monsters because of our Landraiders. Footslogging along with the Plague Marines, you could afford to kit them to kill. Daemon Princes are an obvious choice, but I could see Lords or Sorcerers in TDA being an option.

Definitely. DP's might outpace the rest of the list. I think breaking off with wings might be ok as well.

I'm liking it, let's keep this brainstorming going...

I feel, that for a DG army, everything should have MoN, or no mark at all.

I've been thinking, deployment 12" first turn walk 6" +run 3", that's 21" of board covered. That's 27" left to the back of your opponents dp... That means, if one terminator squad deepstrikes from reserves, turn 2, slightly behind and to the side a plaguemarine unit, the enemy unit should be in range for their shooting unless they hug the board. If the enemy has moved towards you, you might even be allowed to fire the plague marines, if not, run 1-6" to get in front of the terminattors, hopefully giving them a cover save...

I think the key for this kinda list will be to utilise the terrain.. Hug cover, and hope you get to deepstrike the termies when you need 'em... If they arrive early, just DS behind a plague unit...

Oh, and a havoc unit or two, with MoN for t4(5) in cover or behind a barricade, might get tough to shift...

/Calle

I've been thinking, deployment 12" first turn walk 6" +run 3", that's 21" of board covered. That's 27" left to the back of your opponents dp... That means, if one terminator squad deepstrikes from reserves, turn 2, slightly behind and to the side a plaguemarine unit, the enemy unit should be in range for their shooting unless they hug the board. If the enemy has moved towards you, you might even be allowed to fire the plague marines, if not, run 1-6" to get in front of the terminattors, hopefully giving them a cover save...

I wouldn't even bother deepstriking. You will need those terminators for the reaper autocannon shots and increased target saturation. Plus, the turn they DS they can either run to spread out (can be very crucial) OR shoot (absolutely crucial in this list). Not worth it. Not to mention the unreliability of reserves. As DE I reserve all the time. I am also extremely MSU and therefore get more in. When you only have 1-2 units DS'ing, you are ruined by bad rolls.

I think the key for this kinda list will be to utilise the terrain.. Hug cover, and hope you get to deepstrike the termies when you need 'em... If they arrive early, just DS behind a plague unit...

I agree that terrain is useful, and you should be playing on boards solid amounts of it. I also like the idea of taking the two smaller terminator squads and using them as the front line to give cover to the whole phalanx. They don't care about AP 3 weapons like missile launchers and ensure that the softer 3+ save guys at least receive a 4+ cover save.

Oh, and a havoc unit or two, with MoN for t4(5) in cover or behind a barricade, might get tough to shift...

I understand the desire to keep this list fluffy but you are going to have to make some choices in order to stay competitive. I ran a "pure" Death Guard army and felt that I had to make some compromises (multiple DPs, multiple units of oblits, mechanized). There is no reward for being fluffy anymore with the CSM codex. It only hurts you. I'm not sitting here saying to have a Lash Sorcerer leading Plague Marines and 1 unit of Berzerkers, but I am saying to make choices. Like Havoks for instance. Adding the Mark of Nurgle is purely for fluffy reasons. They don't benefit from it. Most of the things shooting them will be either high enough strength to wound on a 2+ or poisoned from DE on a 4+. The unit is already more expensive than the comparable loyalist options (as is most of the codex) so why make it more expensive?

Sorry to go off on a CSM rant, but the codex is already in a tough spot. There is no real reason to make it tougher. I think you can do a footslogging Nurgle army. I know that you can't get away with it in a competitive environment unless you run it exceptionally optimized. I'd keep the fists and champions off the PM's and icon off any unit (except IoCG). Too many points, not enough benefit most of the time.

To go with the old codex, the deathguard do not really believe in heavy weapons. Minus the to hot rules, this could be easily solved by using havocs with plasma rifles or better yet chosen. Chosen give you the ability to infiltrate and set up within 24" so the lack of range is not a killer.

I too have been toying with the idea of a foot slogging CSM army (slaanesh) and think it might be counter intuitive.
With the 5 ed world being all meched up, we are talking 1 to 3 extra marines per rhino and 10+ extra for every land raider you leave at home. So in my standard CSM mech army I could look at replacing the vehicles with about 25 extra marines.

To go with the old codex, the deathguard do not really believe in heavy weapons. Minus the to hot rules, this could be easily solved by using havocs with plasma rifles or better yet chosen. Chosen give you the ability to infiltrate and set up within 24" so the lack of range is not a killer.

I too have been toying with the idea of a foot slogging CSM army (slaanesh) and think it might be counter intuitive.
With the 5 ed world being all meched up, we are talking 1 to 3 extra marines per rhino and 10+ extra for every land raider you leave at home. So in my standard CSM mech army I could look at replacing the vehicles with about 25 extra marines.

I think the reason that footslogging is become more and more attractive is because of the ability to counter MSU builds and Grey Knights. Someone shows up with 22 kill points to your 12, you have a big advantage, even with NoVa rules. GK have arguably the best transport popping ability in the game via Psyfleman, Venerable Psyfleman, and Psycannons. A list with 6 Psyfleman loves heavy mech but really doesn't work all that well against armies without vehicles. 6 Psyfleman will hit with around 21 shots and wound with about 17. So, it's not great for mariens. However, I'd rather lose 5 MEQ a turn than 4-6 vehicles.

I think footslogging CSM is hard because you already know the list will be slow and lack range. However, if you go the terminator/havok route they actually pack more long range than typical Chaos builds.

I played a game against BA today, going semi mech, against his mostly drop pod army.

I had:
Typhus leading 6 terminators, 1 reaper, 1 combi-melta.
1 sorcerer with wind of chaos and wings, leading 6 plague marines, with 2 plasma guns.
6 plaguemarines with 2 meltaguns, led by a PF toting champ.
2x 6 plaguemarines with 2 meltaguns each, both led by a PF toting champ each. In 2 rhinos.
2 defilers
1 posessed vindicator

He surrendered by the start of my turn three. I think the main reason I won, was because he dropped his pods all over the place, and even though he shot down both defilers and meltabombed the vindicator in short order, the only thing that scared me was Mephistro (?) who slaughtered typhus and his lads in short order.

Next time, I think I'll phase out another rhino, and possibly the vindicator for another group of PMs.

Whilst fluffy, typhus and the terminators felt... Underpowered for their nearly 450pts.. Might toss typhus out for another winged sorceror. The sorceror was a nice surprise to my opponent, when he jumped 12" towards 2 bunched up combat squads, and cast wind of chaos on 'em and charged, whilst the other PMs of his former squad headed the other way, gunned down half a tac squad and assaulted it.

I'll probably be gunned down against my mates IG, but since he never knows If he'll face henchmen GK, orks, DE or deathguard, he can't specialise. Neither can I, but heck, I'm allways aiming to meet anything..

I was going to take 2 dreads, but changed 'em for defilers, asI think I can pull off 2 good enughconversions of dreads who's sprouted spiderlegs to pull it off.. Though I'll slowly try to phase out anything with an AV, easing my way in...

I know I can't judge 'em by one game, but has anyone had any luck running a 7 man termisquad??

//Calle