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Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




 Weazel wrote:
Has anyone come across any youtube batreps of even a semi-decent Ork player who has even a moderately competitive list (meaning a lot of boyz 120+, weirdboyz etc)? Every batrep I see have some sort of half assed mechanized list that gets pummeled pretty quickly. I'd like to see an experienced player show me how it's done.


https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com

That blog if you look a bit back has some greentide batreps (prior to his chaos army). The author sometimes ties up the batrep with an explanation video on YT.

His ork list was really strong, with weirdboy and boy spam. I used an altered version of this list to great effect at a local tourney (had I painted my whole army I would have been eligible for 2nd place among 40 people).

The batrep YT videos the author does explain his thoughts and are quite interesting.
   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Yo, that's really good! Thanks

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Kff is definitely one of those boderline units. If youre getting shot into by 0ap shooting, its hard to justify its value as the swing in saves is only 16%, but when youre getting shot at by -1ap and higher, units such like heavy bolters, thats when it becomes justifiable (a 34% save increase from not being able to save to saving on 5's). Depending on your local meta and how common -ap shooting may be, the more common it is, the more valuable a kff is. Right now i have a list of about 80 Stormboyz i use a KFF for to try and save as many boyz as possible so i can lock prio targets up turn 2. And then i have my horde of boyz and psykers behind. They tend to leave the horde of boys alone because the opponent is worried about the fast moving stormies.

Banner, in my opinion, the value is lost because hes too slow of movement and youre not going to get any use out his aura. When youre having to DS things like Ghaz and boyz, at what turn do you plan on getting value out of him. Hes potentially going to get some value if you dont need to DS ghaz, or you get a short deployment so you can get a not-so costly daisy chain.

Ghaz: i think his value is from the army lacking some heavy hitting units/ high threats. Between 6 or so pyskers and ghaz, you have real punching power, as well as, giving boys who DS in subsequent turns another attack when finishing their charge. unless you DS ghaz early on(turn2/3) i think his value definitely gets lost to just bringing more boyz or some kmks because he moves to dang slow.

Im still undecided about painboys, but i think for a tournament list, hes justifiable. If you run into scouts and you have a smite heavy list, being able to heal a weirdboy to ensure you dont peril , is pretty worth the 54 points imo. But, if youre playing a pick up or casual game and youa nret going to play against any scouts or charactater targeting units, value is lost. you will however, are still gong to be able to get some value out of healing(once per turn) your peril'd weirdboyz and allow them to safely smite again.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ive reached the point where the only "buffs" i take are Weirdboyz for +1 attack, but only because I am still fielding my Kommando Tide and they need the extra hits and a Banner Nob is just too slow to keep up.

If they buffed the KFF to 4++ I think it would be used a lot more, and/or if they fixed our expensive vehicles to be worth taking it might see more play.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Newfoundland

Some real world info coming at yas. kinda topical.

My experience with Ghazkull is as follows. played about 8 times this edition so far, and in most games he made his points back and definately made his aura worth the time. Half of these games were in local tournments, all ghazkull games were a victory. Notable feats: shredding a whole squad of litchguard which turned what could have been a loss into a victory ( that was the game i learned about tesla and my boyz evaporated), He 1 tapped a demon prince, and 1 tapped Logan Grimnar. I found him to never be a liability, and when hes connected to a charge anything they hit will hit hard, even if not at funn strength.

Zhadsnark: i include in 80% of my lists. Usually does pretty good, the mobility is really nice, especially if you need him to suddenly let a mob halfway across the map advance and charge. Hes also a monster in combat.

Even before i had a chance to play games i had heard that lootas had taken a hit due to the cover rule and the ap modifiers, but im stubborn and suprisingly they work quite well for me i feel. Im certain the math proves that false but i do feel they still have a niche in killing primaris marines. any game i have played so far with my lootas against primaris has lead to an angry primaris owner. the ap-1 2dmg is their antichrist from a gun that can score alot of hits/wounds.

I have played approximately 30% fun games 70% local tournaments for games. So far i have won 90% of my games, i know thats anomalous and admittedly some of the people in tournaments are newer/make questionable tactical decisions (im not in a very competitive meta) and a big part of it is theres still people out there who underestimate what we can do, boyz especially. The look on some peoples faces in games with ghazy when i tell them each boy has 6 attacks cuz of buffs and squad size is usually priceless.

I recently started fielding a gorkanaught for the first time and hes been doing quite well for himself but i have yet to face a list spamming Lazcannon, i see alot more plasma. But i think having multiple in your face threats seems to draw concentrated fire away from him, usually there is a trukk with somthing mean inside or a Bwagon to split the fear fireing.

Hopefully these experiences help someone out.


.
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User





Im am usually playing the tide, but looking to alter my list somewhat and consider to custom build some Custom Mega Cannons. How many would you suggest is a minimum for them to be worth taking in a 1000- 1500 list. Just one or two only gives away a good target for anti tank weapons that otherwise would have to shot at boyz.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Newfoundland

I play generally with at least 4 with some other things for them to shoot at. And while i have had some games where they were rolling poorly all game in general they are fairly reliable damage output. they can occasionally do very well, i have taken a storm talon out of the air in one turn too, (what a relief for the boyz). Personally i dont see any of my serious lists running without them, theya re good damage and if you spread your grots out right you prevent an awful lot of deepstrike from happening in the back. For example i had thousand sons termies drop in and come in and charge 1 of the gun squads, which is fine it cost me 40 something point,. then on my turn the rest of the guns that see the terminators fire plasma and wipe them out. I dont know how many points a thousand sons terminator squad costs but it sure isnt less than 40 points.

So IMO i run as many as possible.
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Ghaz has always payed off for me. Be it a footslogging or a mech list. He's simply too good to pass by.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Newfoundland

 koooaei wrote:
Ghaz has always payed off for me. Be it a footslogging or a mech list. He's simply too good to pass by.


I just wouldnt take him under 1000 or even maby 1250 lists. at that point your kinda too many eggs in 1 basket.
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Dojo wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Ghaz has always payed off for me. Be it a footslogging or a mech list. He's simply too good to pass by.


I just wouldnt take him under 1000 or even maby 1250 lists. at that point your kinda too many eggs in 1 basket.

A very tough and choppy basket, mind you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 21:07:23


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




KFF is definitely solid for a green tide. 2 can cover 6 units on turn one. Cutting casualties by 1/3 is a big deal.

And yes to Ghaz, especially in smaller games. He's one of the best force multipliers out there, as well as being one of the nastiest cc chars.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 23:36:24


 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Georgia

KFF I feel works for blobs because it gives them a better save as well as an invuln. It also works for vehicles due to all the AP that's going to be shooting at them. Anything in between is just a waste.

"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.

6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



Illinois

 Dojo wrote:
Some real world info coming at yas. kinda topical.

My experience with Ghazkull is as follows. played about 8 times this edition so far, and in most games he made his points back and definately made his aura worth the time. Half of these games were in local tournments, all ghazkull games were a victory. Notable feats: shredding a whole squad of litchguard which turned what could have been a loss into a victory ( that was the game i learned about tesla and my boyz evaporated), He 1 tapped a demon prince, and 1 tapped Logan Grimnar. I found him to never be a liability, and when hes connected to a charge anything they hit will hit hard, even if not at funn strength.

Zhadsnark: i include in 80% of my lists. Usually does pretty good, the mobility is really nice, especially if you need him to suddenly let a mob halfway across the map advance and charge. Hes also a monster in combat.

Even before i had a chance to play games i had heard that lootas had taken a hit due to the cover rule and the ap modifiers, but im stubborn and suprisingly they work quite well for me i feel. Im certain the math proves that false but i do feel they still have a niche in killing primaris marines. any game i have played so far with my lootas against primaris has lead to an angry primaris owner. the ap-1 2dmg is their antichrist from a gun that can score alot of hits/wounds.

I have played approximately 30% fun games 70% local tournaments for games. So far i have won 90% of my games, i know thats anomalous and admittedly some of the people in tournaments are newer/make questionable tactical decisions (im not in a very competitive meta) and a big part of it is theres still people out there who underestimate what we can do, boyz especially. The look on some peoples faces in games with ghazy when i tell them each boy has 6 attacks cuz of buffs and squad size is usually priceless.

I recently started fielding a gorkanaught for the first time and hes been doing quite well for himself but i have yet to face a list spamming Lazcannon, i see alot more plasma. But i think having multiple in your face threats seems to draw concentrated fire away from him, usually there is a trukk with somthing mean inside or a Bwagon to split the fear fireing.

Hopefully these experiences help someone out.


.


I have only played about a dozen games of 8th and I have used Ghaz in all but one of them. When he does get in combat he wrecks face but in a lot of these games, he slowly moves up the board and does not get into combat as everything moves faster than him. Have people usually run him in a mech list and put him in a battlewagon? Or do your opponents move stuff into your face so that his slow speed doesn't matter as much.

I have not used Zhadsnark yet but I do have the model. Do you run him alongside some bikes?

I have yet to use KMCs but am still looking at the artillery rules so when an opponent targets them, I can implement the rules appropriately.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You do realize ghaz unlike most mega armor nobs moves the same as boys. And is within his own aura so can advance and charge a rerolls as well. So ghaz keeps up with normal blobs not jumped just fine.
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






 rvd1ofakind wrote:
-banner
+painboy
+stormboy(for a full unit of 20)
+boy(for a full unit of 30)
+3 kustom shootas for fun (and I don't really have much to do with that ammount of pts anyway)

I like these changes, except the kustom shootas. You could downgrade some PKs to BCs and squeeze in one more tankbusta? That might be better overall, especially if you can get some more bomb squigs.

I think it's already been discussed, but the banner is 79 points. You'll find that your melee damage output is never really the problem, it's survival, so I really like your switch to painboyz. You might find yourself leaving your KFF with your KMKs (which is what I do at 2000 points) and honestly, it's probably better to just bring 2 more KMKs for his cost. At 1250, two more KMKs will do a lot of work. That's basically why I say he is borderline, he will rarely provide his points back in damage reduction unless you are covering 6+ KMKs or 90+ Boyz all game. His damage output is irrelevant but his repairs are nice too, he's borderline.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
GreenTidePackers wrote:
Kff is definitely one of those boderline units. If youre getting shot into by 0ap shooting, its hard to justify its value as the swing in saves is only 16%, but when youre getting shot at by -1ap and higher, units such like heavy bolters, thats when it becomes justifiable (a 34% save increase from not being able to save to saving on 5's). Depending on your local meta and how common -ap shooting may be, the more common it is, the more valuable a kff is. Right now i have a list of about 80 Stormboyz i use a KFF for to try and save as many boyz as possible so i can lock prio targets up turn 2. And then i have my horde of boyz and psykers behind. They tend to leave the horde of boys alone because the opponent is worried about the fast moving stormies.

Banner, in my opinion, the value is lost because hes too slow of movement and youre not going to get any use out his aura. When youre having to DS things like Ghaz and boyz, at what turn do you plan on getting value out of him. Hes potentially going to get some value if you dont need to DS ghaz, or you get a short deployment so you can get a not-so costly daisy chain.

Ghaz: i think his value is from the army lacking some heavy hitting units/ high threats. Between 6 or so pyskers and ghaz, you have real punching power, as well as, giving boys who DS in subsequent turns another attack when finishing their charge. unless you DS ghaz early on(turn2/3) i think his value definitely gets lost to just kmks because hbringing more boyz or somee moves to dang slow.

Im still undecided about painboys, but i think for a tournament list, hes justifiable. If you run into scouts and you have a smite heavy list, being able to heal a weirdboy to ensure you dont peril , is pretty worth the 54 points imo. But, if youre playing a pick up or casual game and youa nret going to play against any scouts or charactater targeting units, value is lost. you will however, are still gong to be able to get some value out of healing(once per turn) your peril'd weirdboyz and allow them to safely smite again.


IMO the more stormboyz you have the less likely you should be bringing KFFs. Walking big meks are too slow, and warbike big meks are too expensive for stormboy protection. Plus you'll get turn 2 charges the latest anyway, so KFFs are not as important. I tend to agree with your assessment on Ghaz. In particular I must mention that healing with painboy, even the FNP on perils, is so valuable for weirdboyz. I will never field weirdboyz without a painboy now, it makes their damage output very reliable across the entire game, even 1 dedicated painboy for your weirdboy bundle is worth it imo. Now that the PK has dropped in price, I think painboy stock has increased dramatically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 05:55:44


   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Just so you know, the list is now:
Spoiler:

2 Weirdboy
2x 30 slugga boyz (2 PK) (all I have)
30 shoota boyz (PK) (all I have)
20 Stormboyz (PK) (all I have)
3x KMK (all I have)

Warboss on Bike(BC)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas) (all I have)
Painboy


I still have these:
Spoiler:

10 nobs
10 grots with runtherd
2 trukks
2 Battlewagons
2 skorcha/trakk/buggies
1 deffchoppa
2 fliers
2 Deffdreads
Thraka
2 big meks
1 more painboy
banner
2 weirdboyz
3 warbikers
2 characters on bike
10 burnas/lootas
10 tankbustas (4 dogs)

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






-24 PK to BC
-90 kommandos

+53 painboy
+62 weirdboy

thats a 1 point excess, hopefully the original list wasnt 1250 on the nose.

   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






It was 1250. And aren't kommandos really really good?
Expendable points are
12 pts - kustom shootas
24 pts - PKs to BCs

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 08:15:16


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

I'd take pks over big choppas everytime in units of 15+ dudes.

About KMKs, there's no minimum number, even a single one is worth its points, especially in smaller games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just so you know, the list is now:
Spoiler:

2 Weirdboy
2x 30 slugga boyz (2 PK) (all I have)
30 shoota boyz (PK) (all I have)
20 Stormboyz (PK) (all I have)
3x KMK (all I have)

Warboss on Bike(BC)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas) (all I have)
Painboy


I still have these:
Spoiler:

10 nobs
10 grots with runtherd
2 trukks
2 Battlewagons
2 skorcha/trakk/buggies
1 deffchoppa
2 fliers
2 Deffdreads
Thraka
2 big meks
1 more painboy
banner
2 weirdboyz
3 warbikers
2 characters on bike
10 burnas/lootas
10 tankbustas (4 dogs)


I think the list is already the most competitive one you can think with your collection.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 08:39:27


Orks 9500
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




hollow one wrote:


IMO the more stormboyz you have the less likely you should be bringing KFFs. Walking big meks are too slow, and warbike big meks are too expensive for stormboy protection. Plus you'll get turn 2 charges the latest anyway, so KFFs are not as important. I tend to agree with your assessment on Ghaz. In particular I must mention that healing with painboy, even the FNP on perils, is so valuable for weirdboyz. I will never field weirdboyz without a painboy now, it makes their damage output very reliable across the entire game, even 1 dedicated painboy for your weirdboy bundle is worth it imo. Now that the PK has dropped in price, I think painboy stock has increased dramatically.


I did the math, somewhere around taking 40 wounds from a -1AP weapon plus, you regain a KFF with bike value (On average, saving 34% more shots vs not being able to save. you take 40 wounds times 34% is 13.6 saved wounds. 8 points per model for stormboyz 13.6 x 8 = 108.8. big mek on bike costs 101 ).

ive only been playing the game for a couple months now, so i dont know ALL the units and all their profiles, but, i know things like stormravens and razorbacks have a lot of shots with -1ap. So, a gman gun line with backs,(with re rolls thanks to gman, youre bascially eating 12 shots at -1. pretty common to see 2-3 razorbacks. So, if you going second, youre defnitely going to be taking more than 40 wounds.

also, at the end of the day, you cant just value a unit purely off its point value. there are some intangibles. what about the times you may make a lot of saves? The opponent also has to make a decision to shoot into a unit with a 5++ vs shooting into something else. What if you have to go second, your stormboyz, most likely, will be taking 2 rounds of shooting.

Like i said, ive only been playing for a couple months, so i havent seen or studied every unit, so i dont know how common a lot of shots with -1ap or higher is, but i think thats worth talking about in this forum. Its definitely one of those units that needs discussion. There can be arguments for both sides.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Newfoundland

gseed2p wrote:
 Dojo wrote:
Some real world info coming at yas. kinda topical.

My experience with Ghazkull is as follows. played about 8 times this edition so far, and in most games he made his points back and definately made his aura worth the time. Half of these games were in local tournments, all ghazkull games were a victory. Notable feats: shredding a whole squad of litchguard which turned what could have been a loss into a victory ( that was the game i learned about tesla and my boyz evaporated), He 1 tapped a demon prince, and 1 tapped Logan Grimnar. I found him to never be a liability, and when hes connected to a charge anything they hit will hit hard, even if not at funn strength.

Zhadsnark: i include in 80% of my lists. Usually does pretty good, the mobility is really nice, especially if you need him to suddenly let a mob halfway across the map advance and charge. Hes also a monster in combat.

Even before i had a chance to play games i had heard that lootas had taken a hit due to the cover rule and the ap modifiers, but im stubborn and suprisingly they work quite well for me i feel. Im certain the math proves that false but i do feel they still have a niche in killing primaris marines. any game i have played so far with my lootas against primaris has lead to an angry primaris owner. the ap-1 2dmg is their antichrist from a gun that can score alot of hits/wounds.

I have played approximately 30% fun games 70% local tournaments for games. So far i have won 90% of my games, i know thats anomalous and admittedly some of the people in tournaments are newer/make questionable tactical decisions (im not in a very competitive meta) and a big part of it is theres still people out there who underestimate what we can do, boyz especially. The look on some peoples faces in games with ghazy when i tell them each boy has 6 attacks cuz of buffs and squad size is usually priceless.

I recently started fielding a gorkanaught for the first time and hes been doing quite well for himself but i have yet to face a list spamming Lazcannon, i see alot more plasma. But i think having multiple in your face threats seems to draw concentrated fire away from him, usually there is a trukk with somthing mean inside or a Bwagon to split the fear fireing.

Hopefully these experiences help someone out.


.


I have only played about a dozen games of 8th and I have used Ghaz in all but one of them. When he does get in combat he wrecks face but in a lot of these games, he slowly moves up the board and does not get into combat as everything moves faster than him. Have people usually run him in a mech list and put him in a battlewagon? Or do your opponents move stuff into your face so that his slow speed doesn't matter as much.

I have not used Zhadsnark yet but I do have the model. Do you run him alongside some bikes?

I have yet to use KMCs but am still looking at the artillery rules so when an opponent targets them, I can implement the rules appropriately.


when i march Ghaz he starts at the head of the pack with the boys just slightly behind the first line to avoid being shot, ::::::g::::: like that.
alot of the time i have ran him in eaither a kill tank or a bwagon with nobz, a bunch of extra attacks on nobs is a good ::::::w::::: <- weirdboy
thing especially when they are touting pk's and BC (i usually mix them up).

For Zhad i usually just use him solo, have not had the heart to try bikes for real this edition, still personally reeling from the loss of so much of their survivability and their increase in points.
I think his best use i find is being able to in 1 turn of movement, go support a completely different squad of boyz if he needs, like for example if the squad hes beside rolls a 1 for advance and is now a non viable charger, he can run up beside a different squad with his 21" movment. its also neat to unbalance opponents like that, i have had people stay closer to a squad of orks without warboss support for better fireing ( they expect you cant charge after advancing or will not advance). Hes also good for ensuring something big dies that you also charged with boyz, and hes got a special place in running over small elite squads of infantry, you can expect him to run over a squad of devastators or rangers, scouts, one game where i got to learn about primaris aggressors (SO MANY SHOTS) i had a squad of boyz melted off the table by them and the next turn i said nope and fed them the zhadsnark, (i have used him to take out dark reapers which are the devil this edition), and even if he ends up getting shot off the board the next turn its entirely possible you made your points bake against most targets, but position him properly in relation to their firing units and he will still be alive.

the KMC are great, just use them! take a trukk kit and steal some spark plugs and make 3 or 4, the way it works now is that the grots and guns are seperate units so your grots are protected if they are further away from enemies than the guns themselves are. and at 36" range most of the enemies will be fireing at other gak and when they do fire at guns they can weather a fair bit. Our army does not have access to much that can compare to them. i like to bring many because d6 shots can be pretty swingy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 10:44:21


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just so you know, the list is now:
Spoiler:

2 Weirdboy
2x 30 slugga boyz (2 PK) (all I have)
30 shoota boyz (PK) (all I have)
20 Stormboyz (PK) (all I have)
3x KMK (all I have)

Warboss on Bike(BC)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas) (all I have)
Painboy


I still have these:
Spoiler:

10 nobs
10 grots with runtherd
2 trukks
2 Battlewagons
2 skorcha/trakk/buggies
1 deffchoppa
2 fliers
2 Deffdreads
Thraka
2 big meks
1 more painboy
banner
2 weirdboyz
3 warbikers
2 characters on bike
10 burnas/lootas
10 tankbustas (4 dogs)


I think your list is very competitive. Try it out in real games and get a feel for its strengths and weaknesses. Try out variations of the various character combinations, KFF-mek, Painboy, Banner-nob etc. Happy gaming. But the above list will be very difficult to deal with for many opponents.
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






GreenTidePackers wrote:
I did the math, somewhere around taking 40 wounds from a -1AP weapon plus, you regain a KFF with bike value (On average, saving 34% more shots vs not being able to save. you take 40 wounds times 34% is 13.6 saved wounds. 8 points per model for stormboyz 13.6 x 8 = 108.8. big mek on bike costs 101 ).

ive only been playing the game for a couple months now, so i dont know ALL the units and all their profiles, but, i know things like stormravens and razorbacks have a lot of shots with -1ap. So, a gman gun line with backs,(with re rolls thanks to gman, youre bascially eating 12 shots at -1. pretty common to see 2-3 razorbacks. So, if you going second, youre defnitely going to be taking more than 40 wounds.

also, at the end of the day, you cant just value a unit purely off its point value. there are some intangibles. what about the times you may make a lot of saves? The opponent also has to make a decision to shoot into a unit with a 5++ vs shooting into something else. What if you have to go second, your stormboyz, most likely, will be taking 2 rounds of shooting.

Like i said, ive only been playing for a couple months, so i havent seen or studied every unit, so i dont know how common a lot of shots with -1ap or higher is, but i think thats worth talking about in this forum. Its definitely one of those units that needs discussion. There can be arguments for both sides.

I think your argument is solid, as I said I think the more stormboyz you have the less likely you'll bring KFFs for them, and I wouldn't fault you for bringing KFFs regardless, they are a good unit. I think there are a number of factors in play; how fast you get into CC, how easy it is to maintain your KFF, and mobility. Mobility is a bit of an intangible, but as a general rule, more bodies = more options for board coverage and multi-charges, which I consider a mobility advantage.

When I deploy, I can fit 90 boyz under 1 KFF pretty easily. That is IMO when KFF is at its best, protecting your deployment when you go second. After that, typically terrain gets in the way, the boyz get different charge distances, sometimes even the order of your chosen moves, and the KFF effectivness drops. And of course, once you are in CC, especially with stormboyz (who can do easy surrounds) the KFF will reduce in effectiveness again since you're not getting shot at as much. So in your example, I think if there are a clean 40 shooting wounds suffered then yes the KFF, even on a bike, is worth it as you described (although TBH I would personally prefer to take the 13 bodies). However, if the opponent splits fire, targets a squad that is not inside KFF, has no ap on their weapons, or does not have the firepower to mow down hordes, your KFF starts to drop in value.

Boyz on the other hand you can more reliably expect to have 40 wounds shot into, due to the deficits of boyz speed vs stormboyz they will simply be stranded in the field for longer, getting shot at for longer. Therefore IMO you have a greater chance of getting effectiveness out of your KFF when you bring boyz instead of stormboyz, and I would lean towards KFF more.

In my experience, the more stormboyz I bring, the less likely they remain cohesive enough and out of CC enough for my KFFs to be worth it, and I typically tend to reduce them. I would rather the reliable 13 wounds from 13 more bodys, those wounds are more effective in their durability. IMO the only time the durability from KFFs are worth it is when you can reliably expect high ap target priority under the bubble AND benefit from the additional bonus of repairing with your big mek (for example, when you have a KMK gun line, you can readily repair the damage they do to themselves while also giving 5++ all game reliably since they don't move). Otherwise I would prefer to have my durability in bodies, not 5++, especially in the case for stormboyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It was 1250. And aren't kommandos really really good?
Expendable points are
12 pts - kustom shootas
24 pts - PKs to BCs


Yeah Kommandos are good, but what are they doing in your army?

You have KMKs to sit backfield on an objective. you have jump and stormboyz to handle flanks, and you have a strong green tide left over charging down the middle. Kommandos might turn up and hang out on an objective, but I think you have the mobility to handle that. its 1250 points and you're bringing 150 bodies give or take (including grots).

I think your army lacks AP and high strength, you're not bringing tankbustas and you have 3 KMK. Boyz are good but not good enough, and PK's are unreliable at 4+ D3. I would prefer the weirdboy supercharged smites in your list, and a painboy or two to keep them healthy. For example, how does this list kill Ogryns or Custodes (pro-tip, boyz don't). What about mulitple T6 units? How does it deal with a few taurox primes at 10 wounds each. The answer is not well, and the kommandos do nothing in shoring up that weakness. You can threaten a lot of space with a few weirdboyz, invulnerable saves on elites will be laughed at, and vehicles will take major damage from the relentless smites while they are tar-pitted by hordes.

edit: I'll note that why I'm leaning toward weirdboyz, is that except for snipers, your list provides them with infinite durability. If a list is out there that outshoots your KMKs (which is a bit easy) then you basically have to ignore heavy units. Without weirdboyz this list never kills a renegade knight. Not enough KMKs to do real damage before they get shot off the table, and some units can just hide out of 36". If I'm honest, the 12 points of kustom shootas means you can fit two weirdboyz instead of painboy + weirdboy, so I would do that instead. One painboy is enough.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/30 12:43:19


   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




My experience is that anti-tank is thoroughly not-needed with a green tide. The PK's and KMKs are are cost efficient additions and I would bring them just because of that. But the list would work very well with no artillery and only choppas. And while Weirdboyz are really good, you can play very well with just two.

And how do you handle a renegade knight, a pair of Russ'es, or a unit of custodes? You ignore them and win on points, which would work in every of those cases. A knight or a squad of custodes would use the majority of the game cutting through a single unit of boyz, which is a perfectly acceptable trade for an Ork player. The only thing you need against those units is lots of bodies. Even grots would work. In fact, the crew from those KMKs are hilariously useful for tieng up a Russ or a unit of custodes for an entire turn.

It is not elite infantry, knights or tanks that kills Orks. The nightmare scenario is when you are thoroughly out-horded. If someone brings 120 Guardsmen and 2 Vultures to a 1250 point game then you are screwed. But there is very little you can do about that.

Also, I wouldn't discount having a few minimum-sized squads of Kommandos. The ability to have a unit appear anywhere on the board is extremely useful when playing maelstrom or ITC missions. I would definitely bring them.
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yo, that's really good! Thanks


Thank the author, he's the one that put all the effort into the blog. For reference here's the thread for my list:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/742859.page

Boyz and weirdboyz won me all three games by a landslide.
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






pismakron wrote:
My experience is that anti-tank is thoroughly not-needed with a green tide. The PK's and KMKs are are cost efficient additions and I would bring them just because of that. But the list would work very well with no artillery and only choppas. And while Weirdboyz are really good, you can play very well with just two.

And how do you handle a renegade knight, a pair of Russ'es, or a unit of custodes? You ignore them and win on points, which would work in every of those cases. A knight or a squad of custodes would use the majority of the game cutting through a single unit of boyz, which is a perfectly acceptable trade for an Ork player. The only thing you need against those units is lots of bodies. Even grots would work. In fact, the crew from those KMKs are hilariously useful for tieng up a Russ or a unit of custodes for an entire turn.

It is not elite infantry, knights or tanks that kills Orks. The nightmare scenario is when you are thoroughly out-horded. If someone brings 120 Guardsmen and 2 Vultures to a 1250 point game then you are screwed. But there is very little you can do about that.

Also, I wouldn't discount having a few minimum-sized squads of Kommandos. The ability to have a unit appear anywhere on the board is extremely useful when playing maelstrom or ITC missions. I would definitely bring them.

We definitely have different experiences in game. I play a list similar to his but at 2k, and I never have trouble with opposing hordes. I've been tabled by Custodes, Stormravens, Vultures, Taurax primes, and Knights. Tar-pitting is effective, but "all game killing one unit of 30" is a slight exaggeration. I do agree the answer can be "don't kill them", hope you get good malestrom cards and the game doesn't go past turn 5, but that vastly limits your options in play. If you can bring a list that DOES have a chance against them I think that is more valuable than 5 orks contesting an objective for half a battle round. Anything that looks at 5 kommandos in a stern way will kill them, so they might be useful in "secure objective" maelstroms, or maybe in "recon" for ITC, but they are free unit deaths in ITC, combined with his already vulnerable KMK unit deaths you'll be giving as many points as you'll be gaining by dropping 5 naked orkz on the board. I think Kommandos shine when half your army is kommandos and they drop as a team to become a full strength flank and bounce off each other's leadership.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Just how viable are Orks without having a huge model count army? I really, really like the Orks character but I do not want to be playing tournaments with 200 model armies.
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

Msolve wrote:
Just how viable are Orks without having a huge model count army? I really, really like the Orks character but I do not want to be playing tournaments with 200 model armies.


For tournaments? You only have one way to bring a competitive list with less than 180-200 bodies, just include the garg squiggoth. Stil have to bring 100-120 orks anyway, but certainly not as many as they fit in green tides.

Orks 9500
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in us
Deadly Tomb Guard





Colorado Springs, CO

Quick question for you fine folks, and I didn't want to start a whole new thread in YMDC for it.

Regarding big choppas on Nobz: do you guys model them with the proper big choppa, which I assume is the two-handed one that comes in the nob box, or do you just use the regular choppa in the Nobz box (which is bigger than the boyz choppa anyway) and run it as either/ or?

Just curious as I assemble a couple of Adepticon armies.

If I've got a trade you're interested in but you don't have anything on my wanted list, just shoot me a PM and ask! I'm easily distracted!  
   
Made in de
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Either double-handed choppa bit or just two choppas.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
 
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