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I think he just didn't make the best use of the terrain and since I had bombers and a drill he didn't know how to handle them. It was a learning experience for him as he's pretty new to the game but he's got a good track record to date.

We'll have another game next week and instead of both building blind lists I think we'll agree on them first. I think I'm going to take robots to show him them next game lol

 Thairne wrote:
And keep the spiral rolling.
You basically want it to shoot MWs.
Which you only want because everything has an invul now.
Which only happened because everything has AP now.
Which only happened because they wanted the game to be more deadly.

Ignoring invuls is a terrible, terrible mechanic which is just the next step for the power creep....

I mean there are already weapons that ignore invulns and a Psychic power that does it in a radius as well. Whether it's a good idea is another matter, but the mechanics are already there. I just want my uber laser to be worth taking again and to actually be scary to people. At the moment a Ferrumite cannon is a much better option.

understandable - but that should be done via different measures.
Ignoring rules your opponent paid for in points is generally not a good thing. And as much fun it is for you (and me) to delete a unit with no saves - as unfun is it to have no defense whatsoever except maybe a FNP for your opponent.

Give it more damage, more shots, less rng to make it actually work some of the time... cause D3 MW on a 4+ in addition etc (albeit still ignoring invuls, flat out ignoring them is really painful)

Seems like Electro-Priests are getting a few changes !

Electroleech Staves go from Dd3 to D2 damage;
Electrostatic Gauntlets go from AP- to AP-1;
Electrostatic Gauntlets go from S5 to S+2

I am always nervous when they buff things... though I am pretty sure they won't change the points too much?

Also, IMO, D2 is worse than DD3 in a -1D environment.

Yeah really feels like that -1 Damage for deathguard is going to get a whole lot of mileage in the game currently. Where regular marines will feel like their two wounds count for less and less.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I am always nervous when they buff things... though I am pretty sure they won't change the points too much?

Also, IMO, D2 is worse than DD3 in a -1D environment.

But a bonus for MW on Fulgurites, which honestly is more or less what we're taking them for. Without that MW component we probably wouldn't run them.

I'm ok with a slight nerf to Fulgs as long as there's a proportionate buff to our other melee options. At the moment Fulgs are just so good they blow most other factions elite melee options out of the water and maker it so that every other option we have is just not as good. I'd like for there to actually be a choice to make.

Edit: Disappointing their WS is still only 4+ on Corps

Friends.

The time nears!

I'm thinking it might be a Secutarii, given that we have the Transvector able to carry them but Secutarii are not (as of the last time I looked at Peltasts and Hoplites) able to be carried because of unit sizes.

They lowered the unit size to 5

I'm still going to hold out hope for it to be a Secutarii HQ or to at least have a Secutarii as well as Skitarii keyword.

Shows how much attention I've paid though, with COVID basically killing gaming for me.

Not happening imo. Unless they're also re-releasing hoplites and Peltasts in all-plastic. Which would be cool. Peltasts another troops option hoplites another elite option.

It looks like we're getting old formations from 7e back in the form of armies of renown as well.

Realistically it's a vanguard alpha primus, if you read between the lines they appear to be introducing a leutenant model for most factions where it makes sense.

The weirdest thing here is that the book of rust includes a supplement for House Raven and Forgeworld Metalica and neither of those factions will have a 9e codex at the time the book comes out.

Ehh...it's just as likely as it being a "Vanguard". Difference is that "Secutarii" got specifically called out as being able to get transported in the flyers and Duneriders.

We have known since the initial preview with the "New Year, New Models" teaser that it seems to be a "lieutenant" styled model.

With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.

i dont see why it would be a Secutarii character from GW when theyre all FW.

My money is its either a named character Ranger-type or a generic that can be a Ranger-type or Vanguard type with different auras about them.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont see why it would be a Secutarii character from GW when theyre all FW.

Totally fair, but it's still unusual for a non-GW unit to get a rules shoutout before a FAQ. That's all I'm harping on about.

Plus it's not like there is not a specific type of Secutarii field commander...

Secutarii Axiarchs were a type of battlefield commander used by the Mechanicum's Secutarii guard. These officers displayed perfect dedication and application to the Secutarii's art of war, but also have served on a battlefield where a fallen Titan have been successfully recovered or protected from the enemy. This is the most holy task a Secutarii can perform, and as such the Axiarch's are seen as blessed by the Omnissiah.

Once this criteria has been met, an Axiarch is remade and upgraded into a being that is inumanely stalwart and nigh-indestructible. They were typically equipped with an Arc Maul, Radium Pistol as well as Refractor Field and Titanshard Armour.

As far as I'm aware(which might be missing some current info from novels or the like, do we know what happened to the Secutarii post-Heresy? Having Secutarii getting used as the basis for a Skitarii HQ would not be entirely unreasonable.

My money is its either a named character Ranger-type or a generic that can be a Ranger-type or Vanguard type with different auras about them.

If it's anything specifically Skitarii, I'd doubt it's tied to any one specific type.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ehh...it's just as likely as it being a "Vanguard". Difference is that "Secutarii" got specifically called out as being able to get transported in the flyers and Duneriders.

We have known since the initial preview with the "New Year, New Models" teaser that it seems to be a "lieutenant" styled model.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...transports got updated so they can all take Secutarii in engine war didn't they? What's that got to do with this character? What benefit is there to having a Secutarii model/keyword when Hoplites and Peltasts also have the Skitarii keyword and there are already Skitarii keyword-based rules? It would be extremely odd to get a Secutarii-specific HQ to support two extreme-minority FW units when a large portion of the army already has the Skitarii keyword and our other HQ options dont support them. What we need is for Peltasts and Hoplites to get that Forgeworld keyword so our existing rules can support them. Not an overly restrictive new HQ model, we already have plenty of those!

Unless you're just coming from a thematic angle because you like the Secutarii? Which is fine, but rules-wise is totally not relevant at the moment. Releasing a model for purely thematic reasons is the territory of FW, not GW.

I could see there being both Ranger and Vanguard heads, the silhouette is clearly Vanguard though (or Secutarii I guess) but it'll all depend on what weapon options it gets. No sane person would take a Ranger alpha over a vanguard one, with what we currently know of the rules, if you're forced to take a pistol and melee weapon. Unless Rangers actually get something back from what they lost in the move from 7th. Be cool if they get the same rule as Serbyrus for targeting characters like they used to have.

 Kanluwen wrote:
With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.

I think you missed the point here. The book of rust for the charadon warzone, a new campaign book, has listings for a codex supplement for Cult of Strife (Drucharii), Metalica (Admech), and House Raven (IK) A SUPPLEMENT to a codex being released BEFORE the actual codex? Not weird?

Also, what's so special about Raven and Metalica that they need a supplement? At least Lelith Hesperax is from the Cult of Strife, there are no unique units for Metalica/Raven that I'm aware of unless this new model is Metalica only? That would suck. I'm so over faction-specific characters without a generic alternative. Course if you can also build the model as a generic version, then i'll eat my words lol

Charadon was, imo supposed to come after the factions received a new codex.
But Covid fethed their schedule up beyond redemption, so they decided to release the longer-done and clogging-warehouse charadon basically in tandem with the Drukhari codex.

I would expect to have AdMech/IK shortly after, maybe in summer... that would make the most sense to me as admech also is one of the oldest codex from 8th and needs some new rules to rule in some outliers (dakkabots) , elevate basically the rest of the codex and do something with the godawful relics, basic wlt's and canticles.

Octovol wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Ehh...it's just as likely as it being a "Vanguard". Difference is that "Secutarii" got specifically called out as being able to get transported in the flyers and Duneriders.

We have known since the initial preview with the "New Year, New Models" teaser that it seems to be a "lieutenant" styled model.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...transports got updated so they can all take Secutarii in engine war didn't they? What's that got to do with this character? What benefit is there to having a Secutarii model/keyword when Hoplites and Peltasts also have the Skitarii keyword and there are already Skitarii keyword-based rules? It would be extremely odd to get a Secutarii-specific HQ to support two extreme-minority FW units when a large portion of the army already has the Skitarii keyword and our other HQ options dont support them. What we need is for Peltasts and Hoplites to get that Forgeworld keyword so our existing rules can support them. Not an overly restrictive new HQ model, we already have plenty of those!

Unless you're just coming from a thematic angle because you like the Secutarii? Which is fine, but rules-wise is totally not relevant at the moment. Releasing a model for purely thematic reasons is the territory of FW, not GW.

I could see there being both Ranger and Vanguard heads, the silhouette is clearly Vanguard though (or Secutarii I guess) but it'll all depend on what weapon options it gets. No sane person would take a Ranger alpha over a vanguard one, with what we currently know of the rules, if you're forced to take a pistol and melee weapon. Unless Rangers actually get something back from what they lost in the move from 7th. Be cool if they get the same rule as Serbyrus for targeting characters like they used to have.

 Kanluwen wrote:
With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.

I think you missed the point here. The book of rust for the charadon warzone, a new campaign book, has listings for a codex supplement for Cult of Strife (Drucharii), Metalica (Admech), and House Raven (IK) A SUPPLEMENT to a codex being released BEFORE the actual codex? Not weird?

Also, what's so special about Raven and Metalica that they need a supplement? At least Lelith Hesperax is from the Cult of Strife, there are no unique units for Metalica/Raven that I'm aware of unless this new model is Metalica only? That would suck. I'm so over faction-specific characters without a generic alternative. Course if you can also build the model as a generic version, then i'll eat my words lol

Secutarii originally had to be taken in 10s the other transports could take them but didn't have the capacity

Octovol wrote:

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...transports got updated so they can all take Secutarii in engine war didn't they? What's that got to do with this character? What benefit is there to having a Secutarii model/keyword when Hoplites and Peltasts also have the Skitarii keyword and there are already Skitarii keyword-based rules? It would be extremely odd to get a Secutarii-specific HQ to support two extreme-minority FW units when a large portion of the army already has the Skitarii keyword and our other HQ options dont support them. What we need is for Peltasts and Hoplites to get that Forgeworld keyword so our existing rules can support them. Not an overly restrictive new HQ model, we already have plenty of those!

Unless you're just coming from a thematic angle because you like the Secutarii? Which is fine, but rules-wise is totally not relevant at the moment. Releasing a model for purely thematic reasons is the territory of FW, not GW.

You're way too focused on the fact that I'm bringing up the Secutarii keyword, I think. I brought it up because it's a weirdly specific keyword that was in an official GW publication. The Axiarch that I copy/pasted information on was a Mechanicum unit.
AFAIK, we don't have info on where/what became of the Mechanicum concepts like Secutarii when it became the Adeptus Mechanicus. We do know that there is at least still a "Titan Guard" concept, per the Kill Team "Background Designation" table for Skitarii.

That's why I maintain it was so damned weird that they brought the Secutarii keyword into the game at all for the two transports. Secutarii had the "Skitarii" keyword, and could have been covered by that alone. By adding the keyword to the vehicles in Engine War(which was part of the build-up to 9E, mind you!), they futureproofed things a bit.

And now with the addition of the "Trueborn" to Drukari? We might be seeing "Secutarii" become a Command Pointed upgrade to our Rangers or Alphas to make them 'Veterans' of a sorts.

I could see there being both Ranger and Vanguard heads, the silhouette is clearly Vanguard though (or Secutarii I guess) but it'll all depend on what weapon options it gets. No sane person would take a Ranger alpha over a vanguard one, with what we currently know of the rules, if you're forced to take a pistol and melee weapon.

We know literally nothing of the rules. We have a silhouette.

We also have these:


And sadly, it does seem very likely that we'll be forced to take a pistol+melee weapon, if we go by the Pteraxii, who were forced to take them on their squad leaders. Hopefully the rest of the army does not follow suit.

Unless Rangers actually get something back from what they lost in the move from 7th. Be cool if they get the same rule as Serbyrus for targeting characters like they used to have.

Are you talking about them getting Precision Shots via their Galvanic Rifles?

Because really, there's so much about Skitarii period that needs to be addressed that Precision Shots alone are not as big of a deal.

 Kanluwen wrote:
With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.

I think you missed the point here. The book of rust for the charadon warzone, a new campaign book, has listings for a codex supplement for Cult of Strife (Drucharii), Metalica (Admech), and House Raven (IK) A SUPPLEMENT to a codex being released BEFORE the actual codex? Not weird?

And I think you missed the point:
Supplemental material can be done in such a way that you're able to release it before the next iteration of a book. Also, COVID is and has been a thing.

Also, what's so special about Raven and Metalica that they need a supplement? At least Lelith Hesperax is from the Cult of Strife, there are no unique units for Metalica/Raven that I'm aware of unless this new model is Metalica only? That would suck. I'm so over faction-specific characters without a generic alternative. Course if you can also build the model as a generic version, then i'll eat my words lol

Metalica is located in the Charadon Sector.
There's literally a heading on the table of contents called "Metalica Besieged" and another called "The Metalican Redoubt".
Raven is the Knight house sworn to Metalica.

just to throw out a different option, it might be possible that they could use these "armies of renown" to trial specific army concepts (for example, a admech variant list that focuses on skitarii at the expense of the robots elements, or visa-versa). give these ideas an extended playtest, almost.

Im not saying it IS the case, but it might be, and might explain why they are getting rules before the codex is ready (plus, y'know, pandemic)

Oh for sure these "Armies of Renown" are going to be specific lists. It sounds like it's going to be akin to the Legendary Legions in Lord of the Rings.

You give up access to certain units, heroes, and any alliance options but in return get some significantly impactful rules.

By tweaking their more mechanical creations to better hold the line at any cost, the defence cohorts of Forge World Metalica are able to shrug off damage that would fell a lesser automaton and more accurately lay down a storm of fire against the shambling hordes charging their lines. It’s so effective, in fact, that the idea can be picked up by any Forge World you might wish to choose.

While they might not have a new psychic discipline of their own, the Mechanicus Defence Cohort also gains new Stratagems and a powerful Relic to better push back the heretic hordes. By pre-preparing their defensive positions, the Tech-Priests are capable of bringing greater levels of durability to their forces than ever before.

As befits the sensibilities of the Mechanicus Defence Cohort, their units prepare extensively for the opening salvos of a battle when the enemy first comes into range. This Stratagem is perfect for maximising your first-turn shooting, or for catching any weak-willed cowards who spend their time hiding among your foe’s back lines.

While you’re setting up your pre-planned artillery strikes, make sure to also bolt a few spare plates here and there to any good cover you can find – with the thick plating and sturdy construction of the Kataphron at your command, a few solid walls will render your troops nigh-on invulnerable to enemy fire.

Any Tech-Priest worth their salt has tinkered with one or two pieces of hazardous technology to create wildly destructive weapons, but few still can match the awe-inspiring power of their most ancient Relics. Strap on this masterpiece of volkite technology and you’ll have the Omnissiah’s enemies fleeing for the hills in no time.

Yep, looks like Legendary Legions have made their way to 40k!

That looks tasty.
Kataphrons can become very tough if you stack a servitor maniple on top - 1+/5++, ressurectable, -1D, -1 to hit if you run stygies.
Kastellans benefit greatly from the -1D, overwatching on 5+.. not sure about that one, but with the amount of dakka it might be actually worth it to spend the CP.

Am I understanding it right that Extremis Sentinel Protocols allows any unit with it to Set to Defend or Holds Steady when charged regardless of whether or not they are in Defensible terrain? The wording isn't clear, it the way it's written it just seems to be repeating the normal effects of those actions, which is silly and pointless since it means you can still only take them while in Defensible terrain.

Also Forgefire seems like an actually decent relic, but only relative to our existing mostly terrible relic options. If the AM book fixes that, this will probably become useless.

I think the point is that its not INFANTRY only anymore - which means that entire text is just "Kastellan robots can now as well".

I'm really wondering why they're so hellbent on making buffbots shoot better....

Edit: Also just realised that its not only Vanguards and Rangers you cannot use - but everything with the keyword. That means your list condenses down to... HQ's, Kataphrons, Electropriests, Servitors, X-101, Kastellans.

Yea it's pretty terrible. You could maybe take a really fat Stygies Breachers squad and try to scout move it into a good spot but otherwise this army can't go anywhere and has no board control, losing on a lot of important types of firepower, just to get a bit of damage mitigation and a situational buff against melee squads.

Almost like it's a defence force.

Unfortunately, playing defensively wont win you games in 9th.
Its an absolute castle list... the -1D is basically army wide at that point and makes you very hard to dislodge from the objectives you do hold. I dont think one can easily outshoot this one, but assault armies will still run this over, push you back to your deployment and then go on and win from there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Almost like it's a defence force.

thats fine....if the match scenarios allowed you to start on the objectives you need to defend. However, almost every one of the standard scenarios is a "meeting engagement" set up that forces the players to fight over objectives in the map centre....which this force is not constructed to do. Almost all of our attacking units have the skitarii keyword, with the exception of the electro-priests.....which will have to foot-slog into battle as the duneriders are skitarii...as are the skorpius and the dunecrawler.

so, all of the admechs fast attack choices, and all of its high mobility options, are blocked. your only offensive melee options for taking and holding a contested central objective are the electro-priests, and fist kastellens. now, both of these are good at that, i grant, but still, I think that such a list might only really work in scenarios where it deploys with control over most of the objectives and merely has to hold them with occasional counter-attacks.

Good thing nobody said it's an amazing thing for matched play, eh?

Don't like it, don't use it.

my issue with that detachment is holy balls thats expensive...

Think about it. All thats legally allowed is our HQs (since none have Skitarii for some reason, forget if Dr.D has it though)
Kataphrons
Kastellans
Priests
Datasmiths

Even the Drill in FW has Skitarii keyword now so you cant bring a transport for the priests so likely you wont be using them.

Meaning either 12 robots, or a gak ton of kataphrons to fill the list up. My wallet hurts thinking of either of those lol