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Allright, i have recently begun playing CSM. I have some experience with 40k, have a 1000+ pts Ork army, and have tried some other races too. I already have a CSM squad painted, and i am working on a lord. (might post pics later)However, i could use some help. I tried playing with my freind's SM army to feel how it's like to have 3+ armor & WS,BS,S,T, and I 4. But there was something that always gave me a mupping. Termagants with devourers. A subtle 12 man brood of those began by killing 2 terminators and wounding my captain, before killing about 5 tacs a turn. Sure, when my battered squads made it into melee, i beated them, but by then hey have got their value back with dozens of pts to spare. How should one counter this build? (and no "dont take CSM, they suck, take GK instead" please. i like the models.)
Tyranid Prime with regeneration, adrenals and deathspitter
3 Warriors with barbed strangler, venom cannon and rending claws + adrenals
16 termas, 12 with devourers, the rest with fleshborers
20 hormas with adrenals
Old One Eye
10 Ymgarl Genestealers
2 Lictors
1 Trygon Prime
1 Zoe
Sometimes a Biovore.
3 Spore mine clusters, a total of 9 mines

Would you say they are... OP?


maybe you should write to GW about how OP the termagants are. Also get them to fix those OP mandrakes too.

Jihallah wrote:Would you say they are... OP?


maybe you should write to GW about how OP the termagants are. Also get them to fix those OP mandrakes too.

QFT.

On a more serious note Devilgants are pityful in defence and have short range. A squad of 12 is nothing to fear.

Just take a Balanced army and shoot them from range, Havocs with Autocannons spring to mind. Obliterators Vindicators and Lashes do also.

Plague marines will soak up Devilgant fire with minimal casualties if any. Engage from range or pack templates IE Lash lists. 1000p isn't Ideal for CSM but if you read a fair few tacticas you can make it work for you.

Lash lists mess with nids something serious, in fact Oblits/plagues will just generally mess them up.

Sadly CSM suffer from mono-build syndrome (Oblits/plague/lash/maybe some zerkers), boring as that may be it's undeniably effective and shoot allow you to shoot him to pieces while keeping any unpleasant assault elements at bay, or as Varon has said to bunch units up for templates. His nid list is all over the place, with clear target priority so with some oblits and scoring PM's you should do fine.

maybe you should write to GW about how OP the termagants are. Also get them to fix those OP mandrakes too.

Dude, it's not the mandrakes that are OP; it's decapitator you have to watch out for

Sounds like to counter the Nids you need lots of shooty stuff like autocannons and MLs, possably Sonic weapons as i heard they are good for anti-infantry.

possably you need to get some cheap Havocs with a IoCG and lots of MLs as that sounds somewhat effective at killing basicly everything on the Nids list. or a Predator (or whatever the tank is called) with an Autocannon and Heavy bolter sponsons, perferably 2 of them so you can take down stuff faster (like that Tyranid Prime )

just my opinion on countering this list

Using havocs is quite suicidal, due to the Ymgarls being able to appear in small walls and assault them. The hormas and termas are left in reserve, due to appear with the trygon tunnel. the warriors tend to stand back and shoot, but that big old one eye simply acts as one big bullet magnet. any ways to counter them?

Ymgarls can only appear in area terrain big enough to fit the squad, IIRC. Devilgaunts, as you've noticed, die quickly in assault. They also can't hurt any unit in a transport. Remember that when a unit arrives from Reserve, it MUST come onto the table. And that other Tyranid units can only use the Trygon hole on subsequent turns after the Trygon arrives. So if your opponent has one squad of gaunts and one Trygon, there is only a 25% chance of the Trygon turning up on turn 2 and then the Devilgaunts showing up on a later turn and being able to use the hole.

More details- what size games are you playing, and what are you fielding/what models do you have? Rhinos are absolutely critical for most of your units. which can fit in them.

Have you read any of the Tactics articles in the sticky thread at the top of this forum yet?

Here's a link to a post I wrote a while ago, with a few basic pieces of advice and links to seven different army list advice threads for CSM I helped out in:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330980.page#2174757

No offense, but you do not recall correctly. Ymgarls can appear in any terrain piece, (such as a single barrel or a dead ork) unless impassable terrain or enemy models are in the way. so, if i put havocs behind a wall, I'm either inviting an assault, or i have to put troops on the other side of the wall, giving the enemy cover. i can't remember the points size, but if you have the approriorate codex you can count it yourself, if you want to know.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:No offense, but you do not recall correctly. Ymgarls can appear in any terrain piece, (such as a single barrel or a dead ork) unless impassable terrain or enemy models are in the way. so, if i put havocs behind a wall, I'm either inviting an assault, or i have to put troops on the other side of the wall, giving the enemy cover. i can't remember the points size, but if you have the approriorate codex you can count it yourself, if you want to know.

I have the codex, which is why I went ahead and double-checked now. It's always a good idea to check the codex before contradicting someone online, unless you're 100% sure, and don't mind being embarassed when you're wrong. In this case, I was 100% certain, and if you check page 61 of the Tyranid Codex, you will learn your error.

Yes, they can only be dormant in Area Terrain. And yes, it has to be a large enough piece to accomodate the entire unit. One of the fun parts is that if there's not enough room for them to fit in it while outside 1" of the enemy when they appear, they all die. So if you pick a side with an obvious piece for him to be in, you can then move into that piece and spread out, to auto-kill them if your opponent was foolish enough to select that piece of terrain.

BrotherHaraldus wrote: i can't remember the points size, but if you have the approriorate codex you can count it yourself, if you want to know.

He wants to know what pts limit you play with (1000-1500-1750-more?)

General CSM advice:
Transports for everything
Keep away from all fast attack slots
Deamonprince is the best HQ for most lists
Lash is very good

The CSM codex is very boring unfortunately, but it can put out competitive lists

CSM list building is easy:

HQ = deamon prince with wings and warptime, possibly MoN
Troops = Plague Marines in rhinos (normally 6-7) , Zerkers in rhinos (normally 7-8), normal marines in rhinos (either 5 or 10). Take meltas as your special weapons (maybe plasma on plagues). Take a champ and a fist on the zerkers.
Heavy Support = 3 - 9 Obliterators

Take 2-3 troops at 1000 points.
3-4 at 1500 points
and 4-6 at 2000.

That daemon prince of yours is a walking bullseye above 1500 points, Lunarman.

If you want to play a more defensive build, you could also replace the Barzerkers with Noise marines for extra dakka.

lunarman wrote:CSM list building is easy:

HQ = deamon prince with wings and warptime, possibly MoN
Troops = Plague Marines in rhinos (normally 6-7) , Zerkers in rhinos (normally 7-8), normal marines in rhinos (either 5 or 10). Take meltas as your special weapons (maybe plasma on plagues). Take a champ and a fist on the zerkers.
Heavy Support = 3 - 9 Obliterators

Take 2-3 troops at 1000 points.
3-4 at 1500 points
and 4-6 at 2000.

Yeah, very cookie cutter.

I usually like taking Noise Marines against the nids. I find that sonic blasters can be a good addition to helping whittle down the larger swarms. That and the odd Blastmaster can really put a dent into some warrior squads. Vindicators are also a boon to use. They make bugs go boom, every bug.

Durza wrote:That daemon prince of yours is a walking bullseye above 1500 points, Lunarman.

If you want to play a more defensive build, you could also replace the Barzerkers with Noise marines for extra dakka.

aye, but sometimes he's a good fire magnet. At 1500 or lower I'd run him with nothing but wings. If he doesn't draw fire then when he makes contact with the enemy he will deal out death nicely. If he draws lots of fire he's in the same target bracket as your rhinos meaning your troops close safely with the enemy.

I am quite happy if my 130 point DP gets shot to piece if it means my 200 point squad of zerkers + rhino makes it across the board without losing their ride and being shot up.

Spartan prince.
Wings+warptime. That is all. That is the only deamon prince you should take. ever.

Jihallah wrote:Wings+warptime. That is all. That is the only deamon prince you should take. ever.

I don't know if I'd go that far; I'm still a fan of the Lash prince.

YMMV.

Jihallah wrote:Spartan prince.
Wings+warptime. That is all. That is the only deamon prince you should take. ever.

MoS + lash is the best prince you can take. The tactical uses of that power just can't be beat. It is still one of the best psychic powers out there

I agree that Lash is the best power you can take, however a Daemon Prince is not the best platform for it. It leaves the poor creature at T5, and that is very vulnerable.

DarkHound wrote:I agree that Lash is the best power you can take, however a Daemon Prince is not the best platform for it. It leaves the poor creature at T5, and that is very vulnerable.

out of curiosity, what could the best "platform" be?

The only other platform is a sorcerer. He can join units, thus not getting picked out by shooting.

I classically run one prince and one sorc, but this year have been running two princes most of the time.

when I ran CSM's, I used to take two flying lash princes, 4 to 6 oblits and hordes of berzerkers. against armies with no psy defense you can double lash a unit and get into combat turn 1. the csm list is boring right now. there is a rumor that a new csm book is due in the next 12 months so stay flexible.

Monster Rain wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Wings+warptime. That is all. That is the only deamon prince you should take. ever.

I don't know if I'd go that far; I'm still a fan of the Lash prince.

YMMV.

Illumini wrote:
MoS + lash is the best prince you can take. The tactical uses of that power just can't be beat. It is still one of the best psychic powers out there

DarkHound wrote:I agree that Lash is the best power you can take, however a Daemon Prince is not the best platform for it. It leaves the poor creature at T5, and that is very vulnerable.

Real men play without Lash

Yeah, I didn't think you would be able to support that original statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:I classically run one prince and one sorc, but this year have been running two princes most of the time.

The dreaded "Spin Doctors" formation.

yes as the "original statement" was a comment on style, not a fact. Winning without using lash feels better, especially if the nipple-chain god is your least favourite. What, were you expecting me to try and argue spartan prince is better? It is, but only in the sense of the warm feeling of satisfaction I feel in my balls when my spartan prince lead army smacks down the enemy

See, now that makes sense.

Monster Rain wrote:See, now that makes sense.

Spartan prince is a good buy, its fairly easy to get good mileage out of him. Lash is very very powerful though, undeniably. Shame winning with lash doesn't make my balls tingle with happiness

Jihallah wrote:Spartan prince.
Wings+warptime. That is all. That is the only deamon prince you should take. ever.

I miss the days when deamon princes could take daemon weapons. And guns.

Thanks for your help guys, I'll consider what I've learned here.

I play tyranids, and I commonly play against a CSM friend, and I really have trouble against noise marines and vindicators.

Vindicators are great because of AV 13, and its ability to block vast amount of shots from the hive guard, while also being able to kill quite a few units a turn.

Noise marines cut down gaunts like there is no tomorrow. A squad of 5-6 will serve you well.