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lindsay40k wrote:

Shovan wrote:Okay, I've been reading through the thread but 14 pages are a lot to skim through so I'll just ask. Why give a Tervigon toxin sacs?

Because it upgrades every nearby Termagant to having them for free. A blob of Termagants you didn't pay for, with Poisoned attacks you didn't pay for (and Adrenal Glands you didn't pay for), hits harder than Hormagaunts. Strike first against Marines and wound with 75% of hits, bring down any MC's without 2+ saves or FNP.

Haha, I almost feel stupid asking now. To think I've overlooked that rule all this time -_-.

i have not seen much love for the shrike. yes they are expensive points wise, but they are such powerhouses in CC. with the flying aspect, most likely you will be getting the charge. they can easily get cover due to their smaller size. and with dual boneswords anything they wound is going to take a leadership test on 3d6 or die(thinking of you thunderwolf calvary), which is nice because most people are going to play wound allocation tricks which means all those wounds get distributed around for instant death tests. i am no pro by all means, but i have played them in my last 2 games and they destroyed everything they touched and always lived to tell about it. with adrenal glands you are going to go first and wound most things on 3's. the last game they killed mephiston, a full group of scouts parked on an objective in cover, 2 squads of 5 or 6 tac marines and still had all of them alive before the game ended. the game before that they killed a squad of 5 termies in cover, a squad of 4 bikes and a 10 man firewarrior squad and only one died to a powerfist in the termies squad. they are amazing.
and with the GK's, i think they will do just as well. have a squad with LW/BS, AG and maybe rending claws go after purifiers. with SitW, they arent gonna get all those psychic powers off and then it is I1 for their squad. then the boneswords will finish them off. i have used squads of 4. thats 240 points that can murder a deathstar unit. give them preferred enemy buff from tyrant or FNP from a tervigon if you can pull it off and they are unstoppable(in my opinion)

Minor correction - their squaddies with Halberds will be at I1+2=3 (Nid FAQ). Note that this means striking second when charging them in cover.

There's an argument to give them a Barbed Strangler for wound allocation, and for the chance of Pinning the target. (A supporting Harpy can be very helpful, since she can add more pinning tests and also halves I of charged units - could allow you to drop the LW in favour of dual BS.)

FNP is pretty much essential, given that Bolters negate their save. If you're going to buff with a Tyrant of some stripe, there's the chance to Paroxysm stuff to reduce incoming hits.

I actually think that not allocating wounds helps us against grey knights. If we suffer 3 wounds then i remove one model whether or not they activate force weapons. If i suffer 2 wounds then one model is lost to force weapon. If i spread wounds around then the possibility of losing more models is greater.
And then there is the fact that they are synapse and they are rolling 3d6 to pass psychic checks. And if they have banner to auto pass, w/out wound allocation tricks i minimize squad losses.

Built-in wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:As for the I6, nids could do an expensive gaunt mob with AG to at least strike at the same time. Well, it's something

because lash whips disappeared from the codex?

Though... the issue isn't lash whips... it is that nothing can really take it that are commonly used. Tyranid prime and tyrant (why anyone would ever want to take a tyrant I am not sure) are the most namely ones. other units with lash whips tend to not live.

Why not take a Tyrant?

My opinion on the tyrant is that he costs way to much and doesn't support the army enough.

I prefer dual primes. Look at the stats for a tyranid prime. It is kind of scary mow little it varies from a hive tyanid. The independent character aspect of the tyranid prime also allows it to be more survivable, a better support for your T4 elites, and a strong synapse source (try putting him in a large unit of gants, see what happens :-))


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WatchOutFOOOL wrote:I actually think that not allocating wounds helps us against grey knights. If we suffer 3 wounds then i remove one model whether or not they activate force weapons. If i suffer 2 wounds then one model is lost to force weapon. If i spread wounds around then the possibility of losing more models is greater.
And then there is the fact that they are synapse and they are rolling 3d6 to pass psychic checks. And if they have banner to auto pass, w/out wound allocation tricks i minimize squad losses.

There are still identical models in most cases. If we are referring to the deathstar tyrant, there are 3 guards, so you need to take 4 wounds to loose more than 1 model die to force weapons.

Tyranids are not kinds of wound allocation tricks. Robbin cruddace made it very hard to have wound allocation tricks int he army.

Also, the GK factor is of course assuming that the grey knights are using a lot of marines... not the acolytes.


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Shovan wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:

Shovan wrote:Okay, I've been reading through the thread but 14 pages are a lot to skim through so I'll just ask. Why give a Tervigon toxin sacs?

Because it upgrades every nearby Termagant to having them for free. A blob of Termagants you didn't pay for, with Poisoned attacks you didn't pay for (and Adrenal Glands you didn't pay for), hits harder than Hormagaunts. Strike first against Marines and wound with 75% of hits, bring down any MC's without 2+ saves or FNP.

Haha, I almost feel stupid asking now. To think I've overlooked that rule all this time -_-.

Tervigans are also S5, so if the model is T4+ that you are striking at, it is still a better chance to wound assuming the tervigan gets into close combat... which for most people is a bad idea anyway.


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Tyrants are becoming increasingly poor, I'll agree. The issues faced by Primes is speed, they are walking everywhere and 1 or 2 lash whips isn't going to win combats for you.

I absolutely can't stand slow units, but that isn't why i take primes either. The prime rivals the Hive tyrant in close combat for far less points.


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Prime; Slow but cheap. You need an HQ, so why not? LW/BS or BS/BS is the question really.
Warriors; LW comes paired with a BS, and costs what, 15 points? Warriors and shrikes are poor units and will not be fielded often.
Venomthropes; Not combat beasts really. Not to mention issues with the Elite choices and the general unpopularity of them.
Tyrant; Crumby expect when....see below.

Not sure why you wouldn't spend 5 points on a lash whip.... 3D6 leadership test for ID is pretty useless. If you want the powerweapon, it still doesn't make sense to not take a lashwhip.

Venomthropes are in the elites section... so the no hive guard does hurt... but with how hard it is to get cover for MC's...the 5+ cover for those missiles on top of FnP becomes increasingly important.


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What, no frag grenades?

One can't help but notice that unlike almost every other race in Warhammer 40,000, the Tyranids do not have factories mass-producing assault grenades to help their shock troops negate cover. However, they are by no means helpless when faced with a capable unit defending a wall or ruin, so long as they make use of unit synergy. The larger creatures and mid-tier weapons can render cover useless to prey - or at least mitigate the damage it helps the prey mete out.

Last edition that didn't matter as much... cruddace is just a dumb gak and wanted to "balance" the army. Tyranids anti-infantry is some of the best in the game... so giving other armies that chance to hit first is how he wanted to make it "fair"

that or he doesn't know how to play and though Move through cover did this.

I vote the later.

I was referring to the viability of shrikes, especially as a deahstar killer.
I have also read a lot about people that play tyranids and their fear of purifiers. the cleansing flame ability against hordes is nasty. But a shrike squad will most often get the charge and if they attempt to use the cleansing flame ability they have to roll 3d6 psychic test. If they do get it off, a FNP boost from a tervigon would help mitigate the damage.
Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

On another note, I am a fan of the Doom of Malantai. I feel with the heavy usage of backfield heavy weapons teams, a Doom dropped in a spod would be a nasty surprise for them. Drop him near the heavy weapons team to get a spirit leech your turn. Then after his spirit leech, shoot the blast at them. Then during their shooting phase another spirit leech on their long fang/devastator squads before they attempt to ID the doom. Which means no missiles/lascannon shots on the MC's, shrikes that are coming for them. Very worthwhile distraction for 130 points.
I have used him one time and it put a wound on mephiston and 7 wounds on one tac squad and 3 wounds on another. Worth the 130 points for Doom and the spod.

My $0.02 cents.

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

Remember that Deathleaper only affects characters, not units. Fairly limited utility against GK.

Janthkin wrote:

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

Remember that Deathleaper only affects characters, not units. Fairly limited utility against GK.

Hang on, the rulebook defines 'characters' as both IC's and also Upgrade Characters. Do I understand correctly that GK powers have to be cast by the unit leader (upgrade character)? There might be something in this.

A squad sergeant is not an upgrade character. Nice try though. Even if it DID work, having 1 squad down D3 LD is basically nothing. The only reason it's ever considered good is because it borks enemy psyker characters and makes their psychic hoods weaker giving your doom/zoans/tyrant freer reign to cast.

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:On another note, I am a fan of the Doom of Malantai. I feel with the heavy usage of backfield heavy weapons teams, a Doom dropped in a spod would be a nasty surprise for them. Drop him near the heavy weapons team to get a spirit leech your turn. Then after his spirit leech, shoot the blast at them. Then during their shooting phase another spirit leech on their long fang/devastator squads before they attempt to ID the doom. Which means no missiles/lascannon shots on the MC's, shrikes that are coming for them. Very worthwhile distraction for 130 points.
I have used him one time and it put a wound on mephiston and 7 wounds on one tac squad and 3 wounds on another. Worth the 130 points for Doom and the spod.

Too random for my liking. You have to pass the reserve roll (so you are looking turn 2-3 at best, unless you have a HT or Swarmlord for +1 reserves). Then you have to land close enough to 1 or more units. Then your opponent needs to roll poorly on the leech LD test (average on 3d6 is 10.5, so a LD10 unit takes 0.25 wounds after cover saves). Then you have the blast power, which you have to pass a Psychic test for, psychic hood interference, scatter the blast, then you have to contend with cover and the fact it's not likely to be much more then S4 or S5 on the turn it drops.

It's just way too many ways to fail to warrant giving up an elite slot. If it were FA/Heavy support or even HQ or something I'd try to get it in, but I'm not parting with my HG for random possibility to kill stuff. As you play more tournaments you realize that random = bad, you want units that will consistently perform, not random units that are amazing or garbage. This is also why I've retired my Zoanthropes.

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:I have also read a lot about people that play tyranids and their fear of purifiers. the cleansing flame ability against hordes is nasty. But a shrike squad will most often get the charge and if they attempt to use the cleansing flame ability they have to roll 3d6 psychic test. If they do get it off, a FNP boost from a tervigon would help mitigate the damage.

The GK player would be slowed to use cleansing flames against shrikes. He's going to be striking first most of the time (with halberds and/or cover) with S4 power weapons that have a decent chance of inflicting instant death. That's assuming he even let's the shrikes get into combat, because if i was the GK player, my psyflemen dreads would be tearing them apart ASAP. Don't forget that in an all comers list, shrikes don't stack up particularly well against most other armies, all they do is mince power armor really. Also, they can take purifier ARMIES, with 4+ squads of the buggers, what then? Cause you aren't going to have more then 1 shrike squad, that's for sure.

The problem with fighting purifiers is that they have to tools to wreck anything. Multiple attacks with power weapons neutralize power armor/terminators. Cleansing flames wrecks hordes. Force weapons let them scare monstrous creatures. Hammer hand comes in useful against T5 or T6 units with 1 wound and good saves (plague marines, bikes and the like.) Their shooting isn't anything to scoff at either with storm bolters and multiple psy-cannons. To top it all off, they are still a Mech Meq unit in a rhino or razorback, so you still have to blow that up first to get to them.

Good GK players aren't going to let their purifiers be touched by the very very few counters out there that can stand against them.

lindsay40k wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

WatchOutFOOOL wrote:Another idea is to use deathleaper's ability to lower a units leadership. I know it takes up a precious elite spot, but it can really shut down psychic abilities when combined with SitW.

Remember that Deathleaper only affects characters, not units. Fairly limited utility against GK.

Hang on, the rulebook defines 'characters' as both IC's and also Upgrade Characters. Do I understand correctly that GK powers have to be cast by the unit leader (upgrade character)? There might be something in this.

The rulebooks definition of "character" is actually very vague, and there have been several debates on what the deathleapers -D3 leadership works on.


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Too random for my liking. You have to pass the reserve roll (so you are looking turn 2-3 at best, unless you have a HT or Swarmlord for +1 reserves). Then you have to land close enough to 1 or more units. Then your opponent needs to roll poorly on the leech LD test (average on 3d6 is 10.5, so a LD10 unit takes 0.25 wounds after cover saves). Then you have the blast power, which you have to pass a Psychic test for, psychic hood interference, scatter the blast, then you have to contend with cover and the fact it's not likely to be much more then S4 or S5 on the turn it drops.

It's just way too many ways to fail to warrant giving up an elite slot. If it were FA/Heavy support or even HQ or something I'd try to get it in, but I'm not parting with my HG for random possibility to kill stuff. As you play more tournaments you realize that random = bad, you want units that will consistently perform, not random units that are amazing or garbage. This is also why I've retired my Zoanthropes.

Tactic i have seen that strangely work is DON'T deepstrike the DoM. S4 AP1 large blast with 24" range is actually pretty scary as is. You don't need to suicide it...

Though... I don't like the "I don't work against tanks" factor of it, and unlike the venomthrope, it doesn't support the army by making units survive. It is just there...

Yes i agree that the pscycannons and dreadnought shooting will be hard to deal with. I guess my thoughts would be to either to deploy in cover or have a nice out front meat shield of gargoyles and make liberal use of 4+ cover. I will probably lose a model or two, but i plan on making it difficult for the enemy to prioritize their targets. Do i shoot the lone squad of flying warriors with no shooting. Or do i shoot at the trygons, hive gaurd which can blow up the dreads and transports, tyrannofex, tervigons or genestealers. The 2 games that I have used them, they were overlooked until it was too late. The last game was against one of our veteran players who was using BA. He went after my tervigon, hive gaurd and trygon and ignored the other elements. He did good and won the game, but the shrikes were the all stars of the game. I lost by a last turn contest with his stormraven. I am new to tyranids, my 4th game with them and am still proxying a lot of models to figure out which ones work for me. In the last 2 games, the shrikes killed probably double their points and one me the first game I used them. They largely go unnoticed due to a small size, 4 man squad. And most people want to kill the trygon and genestealers that are already in their backfield turn 2. Or the hive gaurd that is blowing up vehicles turn 1.
I am going to try and make room for them in the future games I play. And am thinking of maybe using 2 squads. One with dual boneswords and one with lash whips. If it doesnt work I will go back to one squad. I am still trying to figure out my style. But I feel that the fast moving army fits my style. Genestealers, gargs, trygons and shrikes. Backed up by hive gaurd, and I am going to try a tyrannofex next along with a parasite of mortex.
I read this whole 15 page post and found nobody giving tactics about shirkes or that anybody has used them. Instead I found everyone saying they are too expensive points wise and they might try in the future to use them. I would really like to see someone that plays in tournaments, that is skilled give some advice on how to use them or tactics on them. There was a list someone put on here that took first place in their local tourny scene that used a unit of shrikes. I think they can be used in a tourny list to great effect.

I plan on taking 6 Lictors, a deathleaper and Trygon prime at 1500 to deal with autocannon dreads and razors. The rest of the list will be a tervie HQ and stealer broods w/ broodlord upgrade. I'll see how that goes but I'm optimistic that it could be decent enough counters for what I'm expecting to face. I know that lictors have been maligned on a lot of boards but evry time I field them in squads of three they have dominated an area of the board. I guess I like all those rending S6 attacks that pop out of nowhere.

Interesting, i have not tried lictors yet. I have tried deathleaper and liked using him. I will have to proxy some. I am aiming towards having plenty of cc units that can deal with armor

So I've had what seems like it would be relevant experience to share with the rest of the nid players, especially those starting out. Spearhead sucks when fighting an especially shooty army. No matter how fast you are (my particular list I think was actually quite fast for what nids can produce in that it used a combination of gargoyles, raveners and genestealers) it just doesn't seem to be fast enough when it comes to spearhead or being refused flanked. This whole experience is making me rethink things I had previously dismissed and as an attempt to find ways to make my tyranids experience deeper tactically (and reading a few battle reports) I've decided to give the dakka flyrant a chance on the tabletop.

Hive Tyrant – Wings, 2 Twin-Linked Devourers, Hive Commander, Paroxysm, Leech Essence

Lets examine this loadout because I think it bears serious consideration. First, how does it make nids armies deeper tactically? Well it's a reserve manipulator and allows you to outflank a troop choice that would not normally possess such an ability. This relegates the ability to Troop tervigons (which I think currently is the best option), Hormagaunts (personally I think it's a pretty poor option) and then termagants (which is also a pretty poor option but I could possibly see some utility in using it with Devourer gants). Reserve manipulators naturally will need something to manipulate so if one were to include this unit in their army it would really require some building around. This means looking at multiple units of genestealers/ymargls , possibly raveners for their deepstrike ability, possibly gargoyles for the same, and even trygons.

Now, when judging how to get the best use of these reserve units it should take all armies into consideration especially with so many ways to block off sides or hurt deep strikers through warp quake or even proper deployment. I think the best approach is to have a combination of these kinds of deployment options. Having MSU genestealer units to take advantage of the boost to coming on I think is a hallmark of a list taking advantage of a flyrant. Additionally having some gants to take a troop tervigon would certainly be worthwhile as it gives the access to synapse for those stealers or shadow in the warp vs grey knights.

Realistically looking at the flyrant it's really fragile for almost taking up 300 ( ) points of an army which means there needs to be some way of protecting it. To start with I think the inclusion of a tervigon for FnP is almost required to get any kind of mileage out of him. The second aspect is a way of finding cover. Now this can vary from model to model but just taking the base hive tyrant and adding some wings he can be covered fairly well by raveners, add in some generic terrain and it shouldn't be terribly difficult to get a cover save on top of FnP. Of course the easiest way is to just pack in some gargoyles and really if you just want them as a screen 15 naked gargoyles for 90 points is silly cheap and springing to make them actually deadly for another 30 points is very favorable imo.

A sample list involving a flyrant (which I'll be further playtesting later this week) could look something like the following:

1850

HQ
Hive Tyrant – Wings, 2 Twin-Linked Devourers, Hive Commander, Paroxysm, Leech Essence
Tervigon – Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst

Elites
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2

Troops
Termagants x10
Tervigon – Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst
Genestealers x9
Genestealers x9
Genestealers x9

Fast Attack
Raveners x4 – Rending Claws
Raveners x4 – Rending Claws
Gargoyles x20 - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

You've got a few options w/Tyranids to help close the gap. Spearhead can be nasty; I hope you're playing on boards that have decent amounts of terrain.

A few things that work very well for me:
1) Large units of (poisoned) genestealers. You rarely outflank these; the idea is to infiltrate 18" out, and be fairly assured of a turn 2 assault. A large unit lets you spread around & guarantee cover saves, as well as stretching back to your own deployment zone for Catalyst support.

2) Zoanthropes in a Spore. Yes, Warp Quake is a problem. But for every OTHER army, they are very disruptive on landing, and they'll land safely.

3) Ymgarl stealers. They have a huge threat radius when they show up, and are well-suited to taking on almost any task. And your opponent can't ignore them, once they arrive.

4) Outflanking 'stealers. I like units of 8, with Toxin sacs, for maximum damage on arrival.

5) Gargoyles. Cheap, and guaranteed turn 2 threats.

The idea is to present multiple threat vectors on turn 2, between out-flankers, deep strikers, infiltrators, and/or fast-movers. If you're going to use Outflanking as a significant part of your list, I'd strongly endorse the Swarmlord, instead of a standard Flyrant.

I find is really anoing that the mawlock is bad.

I have currently converted one coming out of the wrecage of one of the assault of black reach cocpits, it looks good. Not shure swell it will look after I remove his antennas and model his mouth smaler. :(

Niiai wrote:I find is really anoing that the mawlock is bad.

I have currently converted one coming out of the wrecage of one of the assault of black reach cocpits, it looks good. Not shure swell it will look after I remove his antennas and model his mouth smaler. :(

Eh, just tell your opponent it's a Trygon, no need to cut up a cool model (get it in the gallery!). My Mawgon uses bits from all three variants, they look cool. Far as I'm concerned, it's akin to putting Halberd heads on a Spearmen unit for cosmetic value.

The mawloc isn't bad at all. I use two of them. And even if I test for Warp Quake ... so what. I take a wound at worst. I"m already testing out my mawloc list against GK and I like it. They have to get out of their vehicles to fire their psycannons. They want to castle up mid table. New wisdom is promoting ymgarls and toxic stealers. That's fine. I'm sure it works too. I'll be outflanking a rav squad, and Dsing zoans in pods, deathleaper and mawlocs.

And the deathleaper is super against a lot of armies. Rune Priests, Libbies with shrouding and sanctuary, etc., etc. He's what regular lictors should be. Not that 12 WS6 rending attacks are bad. Combined with the flesh hook shots and frag ability. I use lictors occasionaly in a game but if I'm getting serious I'll just tale the leaper.

I think you may be misunderstanding the Warp Quake rule. It's not a dangerous terrain test but auto mishap. However if the Mawloc lands on an enemy unit it doesn't mishap as Terror From The Deep then comes into play and it causes hits.

I also think outflanking raveners is not possible. Remember Hive Commander only allows a Troops choice to outflank.

Stealers now also have problems as I found out. Servo skulls stop infiltrators in their tracks. I used to run a genestealer heavy list that would hit turn 2 along with an assortment of other gribblies. Now that they can't do that effectively you are a lot further away and more vulnerable to firepower on the way in.

Lukus83 wrote:I think you may be misunderstanding the Warp Quake rule. It's not a dangerous terrain test but auto mishap. However if the Mawloc lands on an enemy unit it doesn't mishap as Terror From The Deep then comes into play

You mean, until a revised FAQ for either army comes down on the side of the fleshthings?

I think you may be misunderstanding the Warp Quake rule. It's not a dangerous terrain test but auto mishap. However if the Mawloc lands on an enemy unit it doesn't mishap as Terror From The Deep then comes into play and it causes hits.

You misunderstand my tactics. I'm going to drop outside of the 12" turn two. I will then move within the distance for SitW with all my MCs and stop the shenanigans. I might lose a turn of Mawloc dropping by burrowing outside the zone. And you need to agree the mishap is avoided.

If you're planning on keeping the Mawloc away until you can lockdown WQ, just deploy it and have it burrow a turn before you a confident of getting your SitW units into position. It doesn't have to enter play by DS.

Just lost a game to GK this afternoon. I used this list.

===A Mawloc Away From the Grave ===[i]

Tyranid Prime (110): Bonesword and Lash Whip, Deathspitter, Regeneration
Tyranid Prime (110): Bonesword and Lash Whip, Deathspitter, Regeneration

Deathleaper (140): Flesh Hooks
2 Zoanthrope Brood (120): Warp Blast, Warp Lance
2 Venomthrope Brood (110): Lash Whip, Toxic Masma

Tervigon (200): Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught, Cluster Spines
14 Termagants (70): Fleshborers
3 Warrior Brood (150): Twin Boneswords, Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Venom Cannon
3 Warrior Brood (150): Twin Boneswords, Devourers, Adrenal Glands, Venom Cannon

Mawloc (170): Teeth and Claws
Mawloc (170): Teeth and Claws

Honestly ... the list deseved better than my play. I did manage to neutralize his GKSSsquad with SitW. I could have assaulted and possibly beat them down in time anyway. My Mawlocs came in turn three. I reallyb felt the lack of AT at times but it wasn't terrible. MCs can deal with armor too. And Mawlocs can get in their lines quickly. My Zoans thanks to numerous ways of granting them cover, FNP and their own INv. lasted the whole game anyway! The only unit I'm not entorely sold on are the Venomthrpoes though they did save some fatalitities and drew a lot of fire. I forgot how easy it is to contest and got my mawloc and deathleaper unvailable for the last minute contests. Bad play on my part. I also should have used the Primes more effectively ... I used one early in the Zoan squad and the Venom squad and was a turn late reuniting with the warriors. My timing and distances were off all game. You know the one thing we CANNOT do with Nids - make tactical errors. We always pay heavily for them.

Overall, GK were very tough. Psycannons and autocannons make a firefight a bit too tough for use even when we bring deathspitters, barbed starnglers and warp blasts. The good tthing is they want to demech, castle up and shoot all their weapons. It is an exploitable weakness that I did not take full advantage of.

Hulksmash wrote:Disagree w/where you put the Parasite and Gargoyles. Both are awesome and both have excellent uses.

Agreed. He should also reconsider the Venomthropes. In this Long Fangs and Grey Knights happy field, he's become an invaluable tool. Lets us go before halberds in combat, and stops 20% of the krak missiles.

I've seen some mention them, but why doesn't more people use Ymgral stealers? As Janthkin said, when they arrive via Dormant, they have a threat radius of 13-18 inches, and since you get to choose where they arrive (granted, you need to have a target in mind when choosing terrain), that distance shouldn't be a problem. Sure they take slots away from guards and zoans, but they're gppd enough to take out most tanks anyway. Only flaw I see with them is the lack of assualt grenades. My favorite use for them is against Lootas/longfangs etc, stuff you know will stay still

I am not sure if this is the right place to ask but what would be a fairly cost effective and effective on the the battlefield list? hopefully without a Tervigon even though their effective I don't like the idea fluff or any models.

A list withouth the tervigon? I do not know how to do that man.

I would sugest perhaps a pod list? If any store stills els easter eggs in your land that could be a good place to start.

For zynapse you can eather mass warriors (I have never known any peson who has had luck with that) zoanthropes or primes.

One thing not necessarily focused on is the strength of combining a single tyranid prime with a single carnifex, especially at lower points. In fact, I would go so far as to make it a specific tactic that is most viable at lower points only. The general focus has been to combine a unit of two carnifex with two primes, but there is nothing in the rules to indicate that a single carnifex is still not a unit of carnifexes.

The reason I mention this as a tactic at lower points (let's say 1500 as opposed to 2k+) is that it is something you can just squeak in, points-wise, at 1500. Similar to an effective Ork kan-wall, you get all the strengths just barely afforded at that points cost. An example 1500 pts list that takes advantage of these units:

2x Prime w/ dual boneswords

3x3 Hive Guard

2x Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Adrenal, Poison
2x10 Gaunts

2x Individual Carnifex w/ 2x Talons (because this list is lacking an answer to av13 walkers and av14 vehicles)

Looks good, I'll give it a whirl when I've got Tervigons and a bunch more HG.

Anyone got any thoughts on how best to arm a Prime that's joining a Lash Whip Tyrant Guard deathstar? I've got a Swarmlord and a VC/ST Tyrant (usually takes Hive Commander and Old Adversary; contributes to vehicle suppression until it gets close and then switches to supporting chargers), and want to build a Prime for each one.

I'm thinking of a cheap Regen sponge for the Swarmlord, perhaps with RC/DS and Toxins (If Swarmlord unit charges, it'll likely put PE on itself, so no need for ST; the unit's in no need of additional ID attacks, so BS seems excessive; DS synergies with Paroxysm/Leech combo, don';t want to drive them off with a Dev), and a Regen/dual BS/Dev/Toxin combo for the Venomtyrant (to give the unit punch against Wraithlords etc).

Aside: I know ST is somewhat redundant on an Old Adversary, but it might help tip a Land Raider or down a Falcon, and talons are an essential part of the conversion I did on my Tyrant :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. Having chanced upon a tactica blog, I see Swarmlord + Swordguards + Whipprime being recommended, in particular for 1850+ with a Tervigon throwing down FNP. It was recommended to build the army around delivering this deathstar, and it seems to me like a list would benefit from Flankstealers and Spod Doom to really help herd the prey and synergy with Swarmlord's abilities. Thoughts, anyone?

Since Prime is an IC i the deathstar i would recomend LW/BS, to put anyone based with him at initiative 1. Then regen, I wouldn't recommend the DS on prime, because your going to want to run your deathstar.

maybe look at ymgarl stealers to corral your enemy to the deathstar, and definitely flankstealers, especially with swarmlord granting them advantage. doom Spod is a great idea too but it a costly distraction, my guess is your going to try and drop it between your Deathstar and the enemy by turn 2, blocking some LoS and drawing fire for a turn? since you will be fielding the Tervigon as a troop choice, might i suggest that the Termagaunts get the Spod instead? Still a distraction but less costly. I am not saying i don't like doom, just that for what you have in in mind for isn't really his forte, at least not IMO