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Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Soladrin wrote:The difference is that dodging a bullet seems to say that you are seeing the bullet flying and dodging it (neo style) when you dodge a gunshot, your not seeing the bullet, but dodging the path you think it will take. It's acadamic but that's how I like to see it XD

Anyway, aren't bolts slower then regular bullets? So this would make it easier.

There's still not a huge difference, or one that matters. It's pretty over the top I admit, but the evidence is there, and I won't argue with it, preferring the SPARTANS over the Space Marines.

Edit: Thanks for the heads up! I forgot about RvB completely.

Wait, just because SPARTAN can dodge a bullet you are putting him above Space Marine?
What about Space Marine super reflexes? It is stated in cannon xxxxx times that Space Marines can hit Eldar on run, and I bet that Banshee can even dodge Lasgun shot.
And how is bullet dogging is going to help SPARTAN in cc with Space Marine? It is clear that Marines are match even for Tyranids and Orks when it comes to cc. Master Chief can barelly kill Elite in cc without power sword.

I am sorry but Spartan is so down against Space Marine...

Actually, no, you're putting your own conclusion on my argument. I have changed position a few times. At the moment, I say it's equal in armour and physical capabilities when you balance the equation, meaning that weaponry and environment will be the deciders. On weaponry, it depends. I've already given an example situation where both factions have about an equal set of weapons, the result came up that SPARTANs would win in a terrain covered environment, lots of vantage points and cover for him to use his speed, a Marine on open terrain where he can use his superior armour.
Bullet dodging itself may not be a huge help, it was given as an example of a SPARTANs speed and reflexes. And give an example where the Chief has fought an Elite and not conclusively won.
Don't represent your opinion as fact without backing it up.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good job not realizing that you nearly described SPARTANS in that post about Space Marines. The only difference being the variety of enemies.

No, the difference is that Bungie used Space Marines as plot for SPARTANS ( like that was not obvious enough ).

It's not. Power armour or super-soldiers aren't exclusively a GW thing. They are largely based of the super-soldier stereotype and off of the Spartans of old.

The difference is: enemies, training, living, psychic powers, zeal, faith, equipment, genetic alteration ( level of ), speed, accuracy...

A few things here. Enemies, yes, the marine fights a larger variety of enemies. Training, about the same, both taken from an early age. Living? You'll have to elaborate. They're both alive if that's what you mean. Psychic powers are a massive advantage, but it wouldn't exactly make it an equal fight. Zeal and Faith, uhhuh, and? The same thing can be said for the SPARTANS. Equipment is difficult, they both have potentially effective weapons. Neither are Genetically altered. They are biologically enhanced with various implants and chemical substances. Speed, no, unless you can compare the two. Accuracy? Dunno, both are damn accurate, depends on the weapon.

And as much as you people argue with this 12 pages none has even said about SPARTAN chance in cc against Marine. You just implemented the genetic alteration, bullet dodging and how SPARTAN is superior ( even if that isn't true ).

This has kinda been the entire argument, speed versus strength. If you would kindly go and read some of mine and others posts. To be honest, noone has really come up and given anything to help the marines. One last thing, not a single person has made the argument that SPARTANS are superior.

iproxtaco wrote:Training, about the same, both taken from an early age.

I think the point he was trying to make is that marines often have centuries of experience when it comes to warfare. While the SPARTANs certainly have a similar training regime to the one used by the Space Marines, the Marines will have an edge simply because a generic marine lives and fights longer than a generic SPARTAN.

iproxtaco wrote:
Actually, no, you're putting your own conclusion on my argument. I have changed position a few times. At the moment, I say it's equal in armour and physical capabilities when you balance the equation, meaning that weaponry and environment will be the deciders. On weaponry, it depends. I've already given an example situation where both factions have about an equal set of weapons, the result came up that SPARTANs would win in a terrain covered environment, lots of vantage points and cover for him to use his speed, a Marine on open terrain where he can use his superior armour.
Bullet dodging itself may not be a huge help, it was given as an example of a SPARTANs speed and reflexes. And give an example where the Chief has fought an Elite and not conclusively won.
Don't represent your opinion as fact without backing it up.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_program
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine#Recruitment_and_training

I have 2 pages to back up my posts. And I don't change my opinions because someone is a little better in one area than the other.
To make long story short: Space Marines are MUCH, MUCH better than SPARTAN. And you can't use that kind of results because:

-they are from the different universe, not all laws of physics are the same.
-they are not fighting same enemies.
-they don't fight for the same things.
-they don't have same or similar level of technology.
-they are in to big time difference ( around 36.000 years ).

It's not. Power armour or super-soldiers aren't exclusively a GW thing. They are largely based of the super-soldier stereotype and off of the Spartans of old.

Really? "In the far future there is only war. Mankind trembles before mighty Alien Empire called Covenant who is determined for nothing more than to eradicate our little bordeosome race. All that stand in their way are genetically engineered super-solders, who leads with determination and fury. They represent the last hope for Mankind survival."

Now where id I heard that plot? I am so sure that something is missing in the puzzle ( *ahem* The Emperor *ahem* ).

A few things here. Enemies, yes, the marine fights a larger variety of enemies. Training, about the same, both taken from an early age. Living? You'll have to elaborate. They're both alive if that's what you mean. Psychic powers are a massive advantage, but it wouldn't exactly make it an equal fight. Zeal and Faith, uhhuh, and? The same thing can be said for the SPARTANS. Equipment is difficult, they both have potentially effective weapons. Neither are Genetically altered. They are biologically enhanced with various implants and chemical substances. Speed, no, unless you can compare the two. Accuracy? Dunno, both are damn accurate, depends on the weapon.

I thought that you would know:

-Enemies. Space Marine looks at Chief enemies and ROFL until he dies of laughter
-Training. Not the same according to both wiki. Marine is trained for 200 years at least. And after that he stays battle brother until he has at least 100 or 200 years of battlefield exp. to became sergeant. While SPARTAN live normal Human lifespan. And SM is having his training right on the field, while SPARTAN trains in simulations ( like comparing me in CoD and real life SpeOp. ).
-Living. Space Marines are always on the move, always fighting, always preparing for battle. They live to stict monastic code and order. While much of the SPARTANS are frozen until needed.
-Psychic powers. Chief ask Mephisto how could he killed 2 ton beast by only looking at it?
-Zeal and Faith. SPARTANS are created for the purpose of Earth Government officials. They where used for assassination of "suspicious officers". Space Marines are created for only one thing: defense and survival of Mankind. Except Horus Heresy no Space Marine has ever fight for anything except Emperor and Mankind. And due to their monastic way of life and complete loyalty to the Emperor they have SO MUCH MORE zeal and faith then SPARTANS ( like comparing zeal and faith in U.S. Solder and Japanese Solder during WW II ).
-Equipment. Marines have way better tech than SPARTANS. From Armor to Tanks.
-Biologically enhanced. Marine have much more organs, better protection and he is virtually immortal. SPARTANS only get speed and some strength.
-Speed. SPARTANS are faster, that is why they suck in stand of fight ( you are fast but then your light armor suck ). Marines are slow, but what did you expect from 1000kg solder?
-Accuracy. As stated in fluff, Marines were able to hit Eldar on move. And we all know how Eldar move ( to them we move in slow motion ). And for example take last stand of Ultramarine 1'st company on Macragge. To kill so much Tyranids with limited ammo, you need to have very high Accuracy. SPARTANS are not so bad rither, but I really doubt that they can hit Eldar on the run...

And when we sum all that we can see that SPARTANS are only better in 1 area. ( Logically. Same when comparing the speed of Sentinel and Baneblade ).

This has kinda been the entire argument, speed versus strength. If you would kindly go and read some of mine and others posts. To be honest, noone has really come up and given anything to help the marines.

Marine has the advantage because accuracy. No matter when SPARTAN decide to pouch him with his fist, the Marine will see that and react faster. And one pounch from Marine will send SPARTAN buy-buy...

One last thing, not a single person has made the argument that SPARTANS are superior.

No, but you are all working very hard to prove that.

And one last thing, to really see who is better not just in cc. Jsut see two things:

1.Enemies.
2.How many of them are alive.

We already discussed that SPARTANS would piss in their pants when they see Bloodthrster.
I don't see much SPARTANS after only 1 war...

Ok, Marine CC advantage.


Weapons,

the Space Marine actually has standard issue CC weaponry, Spartens need to pick up alien weapons for CC. this means that the Sparten will only have been trained in CC techniques as a last resort. the Marine recieves it as standard training.

Chainsword: the teeth have monofiliment edges so they are sharp down to the molecular level and will be able to deal damage to just about anything. the moterized teeth gives each blow a far greater damage potential as the teeth will have more contact time then a normal bladed weapon would have. once they hit flesh, they will begin to cause massive trauma.

Power Weapon: the disruption field will allow the blade to pass through the Sparten's armor quite easily. the shield alone will save the Sparten and only as long as it remains active(which will only take a few blows to down it) other then that, the weapon will be no different in damage to a normal weapon of that type.

In addition, the Marine's bulk gives him a decided weight advantage when brawling. His altered body is better equipped to handle blunt trauma and other injuries(instant clots, immunity to hydrostatic shock and concussions)

Grey Templar wrote:Ok, Marine CC advantage.


Weapons,

the Space Marine actually has standard issue CC weaponry, Spartens need to pick up alien weapons for CC. this means that the Sparten will only have been trained in CC techniques as a last resort. the Marine recieves it as standard training.

Chainsword: the teeth have monofiliment edges so they are sharp down to the molecular level and will be able to deal damage to just about anything. the moterized teeth gives each blow a far greater damage potential as the teeth will have more contact time then a normal bladed weapon would have. once they hit flesh, they will begin to cause massive trauma.

Power Weapon: the disruption field will allow the blade to pass through the Sparten's armor quite easily. the shield alone will save the Sparten and only as long as it remains active(which will only take a few blows to down it) other then that, the weapon will be no different in damage to a normal weapon of that type.

In addition, the Marine's bulk gives him a decided weight advantage when brawling. His altered body is better equipped to handle blunt trauma and other injuries(instant clots, immunity to hydrostatic shock and concussions)

Hang on a minute!!!
Spartans not trained in close combat!!?? they are trained from about 6 years old in all aspects of combat. Including stratagy the Spartan will know or work out very quicly that he/she holds the advantage in that he/she has a sheild and the marine does not. a cleverly placed knife above the gorget and below the helmet can sever the marines spinal cord.

The spartan still have close combat weapons, they are just better at range as their fire disipline will see off any foe.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:
a cleverly placed knife above the gorget and below the helmet can sever the marines spinal cord.

Only if it penetrates the armour (which a knife is very unlikely to do). The armour is sealed.

The spartan still have close combat weapons, they are just better at range as their fire disipline will see off any foe.

I've never actually seen a SPARTAN close combat weapon in game. Are they present in the background?

This is basicly what would happen

http://www.factpile.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Space-marine-vs-master-chief.gif

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:
a cleverly placed knife above the gorget and below the helmet can sever the marines spinal cord.

Only if it penetrates the armour (which a knife is very unlikely to do). The armour is sealed.

The spartan still have close combat weapons, they are just better at range as their fire disipline will see off any foe.

I've never actually seen a SPARTAN close combat weapon in game. Are they present in the background?

yes.

you just don't see it in the game due to the graphics but you see it more on reach. in the books they all hve knifes.

Do we assume that each is in thier optimal state as they were intended when they were created. then the spartans would win because thay have an Ai in the back of there mind.
in addions the Spartan is faster with reactions about 12-16 times faster than the average human.

While i agree it will be a tough fight i have no doubt that the spartan would win

It's been pointed out before that marines aren't slow. They are already much faster than a normal person and their armour does make them faster, as It is like a second skin. I'm not saying they are faster just that it is very close. Marines aren't much stronger either, as we've already compared their strength. Let's not forget everything we've already posted because I'm starting to see things repeated over and over.

Nicholas wrote:It's been pointed out before that marines aren't slow. They are already much faster than a normal person and their armour does make them faster, as It is like a second skin. I'm not saying they are faster just that it is very close. Marines aren't much stronger either, as we've already compared their strength. Let's not forget everything we've already posted because I'm starting to see things repeated over and over.

You misunderstand me, i know marines are not slow, far from it in fact. However the SPARTANs are faster and their suits do grant more agility/manuverability.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Nicholas wrote:It's been pointed out before that marines aren't slow. They are already much faster than a normal person and their armour does make them faster, as It is like a second skin. I'm not saying they are faster just that it is very close. Marines aren't much stronger either, as we've already compared their strength. Let's not forget everything we've already posted because I'm starting to see things repeated over and over.

You misunderstand me, i know marines are not slow, far from it in fact. However the SPARTANs are faster and their suits do grant more agility/manuverability.

Yes, but that's already been said I'm saying we move on to a different aspect of the fight maybe continue on the weapons thing.
I think the marine would have the obvious advantage here as I don't see any of the Halo guns doing much to power armor and the space marine has a chain saw while it was said that SPARTANS only carry a knife in close combat

Nicholas wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Nicholas wrote:It's been pointed out before that marines aren't slow. They are already much faster than a normal person and their armour does make them faster, as It is like a second skin. I'm not saying they are faster just that it is very close. Marines aren't much stronger either, as we've already compared their strength. Let's not forget everything we've already posted because I'm starting to see things repeated over and over.

You misunderstand me, i know marines are not slow, far from it in fact. However the SPARTANs are faster and their suits do grant more agility/manuverability.

Yes, but that's already been said I'm saying we move on to a different aspect of the fight maybe continue on the weapons thing.
I think the marine would have the obvious advantage here as I don't see any of the Halo guns doing much to power armor and the space marine has a chain saw while it was said that SPARTANS only carry a knife in close combat

a basic marines only carries a combat knife too.

What most people forget is that a SPARTAN has(or should have) an AI in the suit.

in addition the SPARTAN has a better mind set and is not restriced to the Empoer-fearing propoganda. The SPARTAN has a better grasp of tactics ect and is not a glory hungery person who is overcome by rage when the going gets tough. keeping a cool head in this situation would be essential as being angy makes you rash and a SPARTAN would exploit that and use it to his/her advantage

(i hope thats not been said)

in addition the SPARTAN has a better mind set and is not restriced to the Empoer-fearing propoganda. The SPARTAN has a better grasp of tactics ect and is not a glory hungery person who is overcome by rage when the going gets tough. keeping a cool head in this situation would be essential as being angy makes you rash and a SPARTAN would exploit that and use it to his/her advantage

(i hope thats not been said)

Really, space marines have a lesser grip on tactics? They just really on their faith and anger? Yeah that sounds right, I'm sure the Codex Astartes says nothing about tactics, it's all, PRAISE THE EMPRAH! GET ANGRY AND TEAR SOMEONES HEAD OFF YEAAAAH!!! Oh wait, that's not it, the Codex Astartes teaches a marine how to react to any given situation, it was written by one of the greatest tacticians of all time in the 40k universe (Gulliman, who was convenieantly on the other side of the galaxy when ever something happened), and pretty much shows them how to fight any enemy, any place, any time. Now, tell me the Space Marines have no grip on tactics, cause I really doubt they are anything like what you just described.

Sounds like Spartan speed/agility is similar to Dark Eldar Wyches/Eldar aspect warriors, minus eldar-level weapons tech.

Space Marines kill Eldar, literally, all the time 1v1 and 2v3 (or worse odds). Marines simply aren't slow 'enough' to offset the massive advantage that their armor and physiology offer in protection and endurance.

A Spartan can flip out and dodge all the bullets and make super ninja monkey back-attacks all day; he simply can't do enough sustained damage to overcome 7 redundant organs and auto-knitting bones.

Cinematically, this fight would be all super flashy Spartan jumping and cracking staggering blows off of Wolf Guard Hrolfdir's chest plastron, with Hrolfdir bellowing loudly and stumbling about for 30 seconds of slo-mo dancefight. Then Hrolfdir would roll a '6' and his 'grape'-mitt would close around something extraneous, and he would literally rip the Spartan in half.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Actually, no, you're putting your own conclusion on my argument. I have changed position a few times. At the moment, I say it's equal in armour and physical capabilities when you balance the equation, meaning that weaponry and environment will be the deciders. On weaponry, it depends. I've already given an example situation where both factions have about an equal set of weapons, the result came up that SPARTANs would win in a terrain covered environment, lots of vantage points and cover for him to use his speed, a Marine on open terrain where he can use his superior armour.
Bullet dodging itself may not be a huge help, it was given as an example of a SPARTANs speed and reflexes. And give an example where the Chief has fought an Elite and not conclusively won.
Don't represent your opinion as fact without backing it up.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_program
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine#Recruitment_and_training

I have 2 pages to back up my posts. And I don't change my opinions because someone is a little better in one area than the other.
To make long story short: Space Marines are MUCH, MUCH better than SPARTAN. And you can't use that kind of results because:

-they are from the different universe, not all laws of physics are the same.
-they are not fighting same enemies.
-they don't fight for the same things.
-they don't have same or similar level of technology.
-they are in to big time difference ( around 36.000 years ).

Nothing above disproves my points. I was merely making the remark that aside from vaguely saying that marine can hit banshees, your counter-argument was more like my opinion is stupid and you are right, just because.
Basically, what you're saying is that they aren't part of the same universe, so we can't compare them, ergo, you undermined your own argument as well.

It's not. Power armour or super-soldiers aren't exclusively a GW thing. They are largely based of the super-soldier stereotype and off of the Spartans of old.

Really? "In the far future there is only war. Mankind trembles before mighty Alien Empire called Covenant who is determined for nothing more than to eradicate our little bordeosome race. All that stand in their way are genetically engineered super-solders, who leads with determination and fury. They represent the last hope for Mankind survival."

Now where id I heard that plot? I am so sure that something is missing in the puzzle ( *ahem* The Emperor *ahem* ).

That's a very vague and largely biased overview. The description is wrong from the outset, not really comparing the two at all. The story lines are different, get over it.

A few things here. Enemies, yes, the marine fights a larger variety of enemies. Training, about the same, both taken from an early age. Living? You'll have to elaborate. They're both alive if that's what you mean. Psychic powers are a massive advantage, but it wouldn't exactly make it an equal fight. Zeal and Faith, uhhuh, and? The same thing can be said for the SPARTANS. Equipment is difficult, they both have potentially effective weapons. Neither are Genetically altered. They are biologically enhanced with various implants and chemical substances. Speed, no, unless you can compare the two. Accuracy? Dunno, both are damn accurate, depends on the weapon.

I thought that you would know:

-Enemies. Space Marine looks at Chief enemies and ROFL until he dies of laughter
-Training. Not the same according to both wiki. Marine is trained for 200 years at least. And after that he stays battle brother until he has at least 100 or 200 years of battlefield exp. to became sergeant. While SPARTAN live normal Human lifespan. And SM is having his training right on the field, while SPARTAN trains in simulations ( like comparing me in CoD and real life SpeOp. ).
-Living. Space Marines are always on the move, always fighting, always preparing for battle. They live to stict monastic code and order. While much of the SPARTANS are frozen until needed.
-Psychic powers. Chief ask Mephisto how could he killed 2 ton beast by only looking at it?
-Zeal and Faith. SPARTANS are created for the purpose of Earth Government officials. They where used for assassination of "suspicious officers". Space Marines are created for only one thing: defense and survival of Mankind. Except Horus Heresy no Space Marine has ever fight for anything except Emperor and Mankind. And due to their monastic way of life and complete loyalty to the Emperor they have SO MUCH MORE zeal and faith then SPARTANS ( like comparing zeal and faith in U.S. Solder and Japanese Solder during WW II ).
-Equipment. Marines have way better tech than SPARTANS. From Armor to Tanks.
-Biologically enhanced. Marine have much more organs, better protection and he is virtually immortal. SPARTANS only get speed and some strength.
-Speed. SPARTANS are faster, that is why they suck in stand of fight ( you are fast but then your light armor suck ). Marines are slow, but what did you expect from 1000kg solder?
-Accuracy. As stated in fluff, Marines were able to hit Eldar on move. And we all know how Eldar move ( to them we move in slow motion ). And for example take last stand of Ultramarine 1'st company on Macragge. To kill so much Tyranids with limited ammo, you need to have very high Accuracy. SPARTANS are not so bad rither, but I really doubt that they can hit Eldar on the run...

And when we sum all that we can see that SPARTANS are only better in 1 area. ( Logically. Same when comparing the speed of Sentinel and Baneblade ).

Enemies, I agreed with you on. A brute could give a Marine a run for his money, so would Elites. I wouldn't like to compare the covenant navy to the IN.
I'm so confused. That's experience, a marine is trained for roughly the same duration and intensity as a SPARTAN. He's already a fully fledged battle-brother for the majority of that 200 years, when he gets a PROMOTION.
That's exactly the same for a SPARTAN, with some time taken by cryo which is actually advantageous to their operational ability. SPARTANS rarely ever stop moving, marines will return to their home-world of Fortress Monastery regularly to repair their weapons and receive new recruits.
SPARTANS were created for the same purpose. Faith in the Emperor is just as strong as a SPARTANS duty to mankind. They actually have a slight advantage because they aren't weighed down by near religious beliefs and practices.
Psychic powers I have already agreed on.
Not necessarily true. I agree that 40k is generally more advanced, that doesn't mean that a Spartan laser won't take a marines head off.
It's not just speed and some strength, this is why I suggest you read the thread first.
Yes, SPARTANS are faster, saying that's not an advantage is a bare faced lie. Coupled with very durable armour, as in surviving re-entry from orbit durable, then they are very good in close combat. Don't deny any possible attributes because you instantly favor your faction. I agree that Marines have better protection, there's no need to argue that point. On weight, read the thread, the Chief weighs more than 1000Lbs in his armour.
Why would you say that? Ever read Fist Strike? A Spartan hangs upside down on a wire strung between some posts and snipes the pilots out of low altitude skimmers through centimeters small holes in the canopy. I'm fairly damn certain that they could hit an Eldar. Using Tyranids is a bad example. As Learchus said, accuracy against them isn't important.
And when you compare them the SPARTANS come out in only one area. Again, read the thread and back up your points

This has kinda been the entire argument, speed versus strength. If you would kindly go and read some of mine and others posts. To be honest, noone has really come up and given anything to help the marines.

Marine has the advantage because accuracy. No matter when SPARTAN decide to pouch him with his fist, the Marine will see that and react faster. And one pounch from Marine will send SPARTAN buy-buy...

Because better accuracy? Again, not necessarily true. It's damn difficult to hit a faster moving object with better combat awareness and reflexes. That comparison would only work if the SPARTAN were blind.

One last thing, not a single person has made the argument that SPARTANS are superior.

No, but you are all working very hard to prove that.

And one last thing, to really see who is better not just in cc. Jsut see two things:

1.Enemies.
2.How many of them are alive.

We already discussed that SPARTANS would piss in their pants when they see Bloodthrster.
I don't see much SPARTANS after only 1 war...

Lyzin Locrian wrote:

in addition the SPARTAN has a better mind set and is not restriced to the Empoer-fearing propoganda. The SPARTAN has a better grasp of tactics ect and is not a glory hungery person who is overcome by rage when the going gets tough. keeping a cool head in this situation would be essential as being angy makes you rash and a SPARTAN would exploit that and use it to his/her advantage

(i hope thats not been said)

It's kind of valid, but I think you may be exaggerating how easily a marine will revert to a state of zealous fury. Maybe when he sees something particularly heretical or if his brothers are dying. That said, a marine has a great grasp of tactics, arguing that they are oft blinded in battle I think is wrong. Their tactical ability is sound, there ability to apply a wider range of tactics is questionable. They aren't as adaptable as a SPARTAN, fulfilling roughly the same roles, but SPARTANS are more effective at infiltration, defensive operations, mobile combat, but would be out done by a marine in their chosen field and in an all out pitched battle.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:

yes space marines have a lesser grip on tactics! SPARTANs learn tactics and stratagies since the were 6, war is all they think about, no praying or faiths, just war and tactics. in addition to this each SPARTAN is tought to think independantly (before you go off on one i'm not saying that marines don't simply SPARTANS more so) Reading a book is different from learning every victory and defaeat to learn why they were won or lost.

They have a hundreds of years to lean any tactic they want by book or experience cause they dont die of old age, spartan punches marine punches,
(not much need to be an awesome tactition right now is ther)
marine strength of 10 men on his own, spartan nothing, marine win
LEARN: http://www.factpile.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Space-marine-vs-master-chief.gif
its been done a thousand times

JamesMclaren123 wrote:yes space marines have a lesser grip on tactics! SPARTANs learn tactics and stratagies since the were 6, war is all they think about, no praying or faiths, just war and tactics. in addition to this each SPARTAN is tought to think independantly (before you go off on one i'm not saying that marines don't simply SPARTANS more so) Reading a book is different from learning every victory and defaeat to learn why they were won or lost.

This is a stupid non-argument.

Marines spend 19 hours of their waking day fighting, drilling, and learning 'war' ('Day in the Life of a Space Marine, posted in WD and GW's main site).

Even allowing for 2-3 hours of reflection and faith-building (Marines do not actually worship the Emperor as a God, more a revered ancestor), that is literally 16+ hours a day in combat training including squad-based tactics and broader strategy.

A SPARTAN has the strength of nothing? And not the capability to lift 2 tonnes whilst wearing a 1000Lbs suit of armour?

iproxtaco wrote:It's kind of valid, but I think you may be exaggerating how easily a marine will revert to a state of zealous fury. Maybe when he sees something particularly heretical or if his brothers are dying. That said, a marine has a great grasp of tactics, arguing that they are oft blinded in battle I think is wrong. Their tactical ability is sound, there ability to apply a wider range of tactics is questionable. They aren't as adaptable as a SPARTAN, fulfilling roughly the same roles, but SPARTANS are more effective at infiltration, defensive operations, mobile combat, but would be out done by a marine in their chosen field and in an all out pitched battle.

would not the very exsistance of a SPARTAN be heretical to a marine? Also i have a copy of halsey's diary from the reach special edition thingy. and it says that SPARTANs have almost intantanious blood clots.

again i must stress that i donot think the marine to be bad at tactics i think they are very good just not as good. also marines can be quiet overconfident at times.

Since they're human, no. Once the helmet is off, a marine would hesitate. so would a SPARTAN. That's a situation where they somehow meet on the battlefield with no prior knoledge of each other.

sourclams wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:yes space marines have a lesser grip on tactics! SPARTANs learn tactics and stratagies since the were 6, war is all they think about, no praying or faiths, just war and tactics. in addition to this each SPARTAN is tought to think independantly (before you go off on one i'm not saying that marines don't simply SPARTANS more so) Reading a book is different from learning every victory and defaeat to learn why they were won or lost.

This is a stupid non-argument.

Marines spend 19 hours of their waking day fighting, drilling, and learning 'war' ('Day in the Life of a Space Marine, posted in WD and GW's main site).

Even allowing for 2-3 hours of reflection and faith-building (Marines do not actually worship the Emperor as a God, more a revered ancestor), that is literally 16+ hours a day in combat training including squad-based tactics and broader strategy.

but have they been learning since they were 6, i think not.
and @rogal

thats Kinda niive unles your joking in which your not helping

The minimum age doesn't really matter when the marine is immortal.

James Maclaren, i believe(i may be wrong) that the OP intended this to be a fistfight in an arena or someplace else where the only factors are their skill and prowess in close combat and armour(if they both use theirs). So i'm not sure how useful learning about the tactics of themistocles at thermopolaye or patton in WWII or of any other battle will help in a close combat 1v1 scenario. Also, yes spartans learned tactics since six, but dont live to be 200-300+ years old, all of which are spent training and learning of tactics. So at a max the spartans have been learning tactics for 30-40 years of their lives whereas the SM have been for at least 180 if it was a veteran, or at least as much as the spartan for a regular SM. Also spartans have been trained to fight against fellow(usually weak to no armour) or the covenant. That is 2 very diverse armies upon which extensive tactics that spartans have learned. The SM have to know the tactics and abilities of Chaos, Nids, Necrons,Tau, Eldar, DE, Orks and whatever they might face. That is a great deal more armies that the SM has to be able to deal with. Also, since these fighters are from completely different universe's, the spartan would have no prior 'victories or defeats' to learn from and would not know the SM fighting style, but the same can be said against the SM. To me, this comes down to a few major categories. Speed, power, toughness, resourcefulness and prior combat experience.
IMHO
Speed:Spartan(just by a little)
Power: SM
Toughness:Sm(all of the Sm organs and uprades help alot)
Resourcefulness: depends on which spartan and which SM
Combat Experience: SM(usually)

Using these categories, i think i give it to the SM, not in a landslide, but i do think that he would win the majority of the fights

iproxtaco wrote:Coupled with very durable armour, as in surviving re-entry from orbit durable, then they are very good in close combat.

My thoughts go to a certain space shuttle that had orbital re-entry-surviving armour plates that got smashed by a piece of plastic. Heat resistance means little in a fistfight.

Care to give an example of Space Marines strength? Currently, we have nothing in this thread that details it bar a single marine lifting the back end of a small truck.

IMVHO
Speed: SPARTAN
Power: Currently undecided, I would side with the marine.
Toughness: Base armour, marine, with shield, it's even.
Resourcefulness: SPARTAN, able to improvise better and adapt to roles a lot better.
Combat Experience: Marine, there's no doubting that.

dajobe wrote:James Maclaren, i believe(i may be wrong) that the OP intended this to be a fistfight in an arena or someplace else where the only factors are their skill and prowess in close combat and armour(if they both use theirs). So i'm not sure how useful learning about the tactics of themistocles at thermopolaye or patton in WWII or of any other battle will help in a close combat 1v1 scenario. Also, yes spartans learned tactics since six, but dont live to be 200-300+ years old, all of which are spent training and learning of tactics. So at a max the spartans have been learning tactics for 30-40 years of their lives whereas the SM have been for at least 180 if it was a veteran, or at least as much as the spartan for a regular SM. Also spartans have been trained to fight against fellow(usually weak to no armour) or the covenant. That is 2 very diverse armies upon which extensive tactics that spartans have learned. The SM have to know the tactics and abilities of Chaos, Nids, Necrons,Tau, Eldar, DE, Orks and whatever they might face. That is a great deal more armies that the SM has to be able to deal with. Also, since these fighters are from completely different universe's, the spartan would have no prior 'victories or defeats' to learn from and would not know the SM fighting style, but the same can be said against the SM. To me, this comes down to a few major categories. Speed, power, toughness, resourcefulness and prior combat experience.
IMHO
Speed:Spartan(just by a little)
Power: SM
Toughness:Sm(all of the Sm organs and uprades help alot)
Resourcefulness: depends on which spartan and which SM
Combat Experience: SM(usually)

Using these categories, i think i give it to the SM, not in a landslide, but i do think that he would win the majority of the fights

but you have forgotten a major catagory Armour which the spartan gets due to his sheild. and simmilar armour componds

also i disagree i think that a SPARTAN is more resorseful.

@iproxtaco you got me there

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Coupled with very durable armour, as in surviving re-entry from orbit durable, then they are very good in close combat.

My thoughts go to a certain space shuttle that had orbital re-entry-surviving armour plates that got smashed by a piece of plastic. Heat resistance means little in a fistfight.

My thoughts then go to the other 20 or so SPARTANS who did it unprotected, and the other SPARTAN III who did it without protection. Heat resistance means little, it's a testament to the shields durability though, that it can take that much constant energy, and the SPARTANS durability on surviving the impact with no serious injuries bar two broken ribs, and no serious injuries in the case of the weaker SPARTAN III.

Lotet wrote:and a Terminator can use an Assault Cannon or a Storm Bolter/Cyclone Missile Launcher combo. he can ake out tanks. I mean, we both know the Terminator can take more damage but the firepower of both is so powerful as to make it pointless to compare, the MI would die from the guns first.

unless the Terminator isn't shooting at him for some reason

Like being miles away.

Or not being able to keep up with an MI. Those suits are amazingly fast, and have jumpjets.