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Sorry, it's pointless to compare a storm bolter and power fist to mini-nukes and guns that are seen on 40k navy ships that are used to bombard a planet? That's funny.

if an elite can bash through a shield in one hit, so can a SM considering the fact that their muscles are genetically enhanced to be at optimum efficiency, and a punch isnt a long lasting over the entire shield heat wave, it is a concentrated blast in one locale. and for resourcefulness, it most definitely depends on which spartan and which SM, some SM are very very smart and very very resourceful. Some Spartans are very very smart and very very resourceful.

but as i said before, its close with armour, its close without armour. SM's genetic mods and super fast healing will mean that the only way for a spartan to bring it down in CC is with an instakill, which would be very hard to do. and the space marine just needs to get one good punch in and spartan is on the ground and SM rips his/her head off.


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im not saying its impossible for the spartan to get behind SM and break his neck, but im saying its easier for SM to kill spartan than spartan to kill SM


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imo

This healing isn't that fast. It's fast clogging to stop bleeding which SPARTANS have as well. And no, an Elite can't punch through a shield in one hit, that's only in game, and we've agreed that neither in-game system is an accurate representation of their abilities, barring cut-scenes and the specific events and over-arching storyline.
All Spartans are very very smart and very very resourceful, the same can't be said for a Space Marine, being educated humans in intelligence.
And for the last time, a marine is not genetically modified.

Well, Spartan's can take a punch too, so if it was without armor. It'll probably turn into a battle of atrittion. Which an SM would win because in a battle of stamina, they would be far superior.

So yeah in the end, pretty much evenly matched (IMHO), they just are better in different situations.

The main problem is the weapon difference, a bolter will would shred a Spartan, since it's pretty much a brute shot, but rocket proppeled. And in one of the novels, a spartan died from a single direct shot (goodbye stomach).

Can we use Plasma Launchers? :3 4 lock on homing plasma grenades? yes please.

lol, i mispoke(typed?) i meant that they have the organs implanted. and i remember reading the books and i forget which one but a spartan gets hit by an elite and his shields are basically gone. And im assuming that most if not all SM are very very smart and very very resourceful because if they werent, then they would not have been selected for the chapter and past that, would not have survived the scouting stage of their careers, and would never have been made a Battle Brother.

dajobe wrote:lol, i mispoke(typed?) i meant that they have the organs implanted. and i remember reading the books and i forget which one but a spartan gets hit by an elite and his shields are basically gone. And im assuming that most if not all SM are very very smart and very very resourceful because if they werent, then they would not have been selected for the chapter and past that, would not have survived the scouting stage of their careers, and would never have been made a Battle Brother.

SPARTANS are a lot more resourceful, they are better at infiltration and covert ops, trained for a much greater variety of roles. A marine also is not a genius. Strong willed and instinctual in war, a SPARTAN however are trained to be thinkers as well as soldiers, and have augmentations which improve this massively.

You may be thinking of the first book, The Fall of Reach, where the chief defeats an Elite in hand to hand, but the does not have his shield taken out in one punch.
Grace was killed by a savage beating and three shots from a brute-shot to the stomach. That was with lower grade shielding.

on infiltration and covert ops, think of the raven guard, experts of ambushes and covert ops. and arent intelligence and resourcefulness one of the factors taken in to consideration when recruiting SM. And i guess i was wrong in the book thing, my apologies

dajobe wrote:on infiltration and covert ops, think of the raven guard, experts of ambushes and covert ops. and arent intelligence and resourcefulness one of the factors taken in to consideration when recruiting SM. And i guess i was wrong in the book thing, my apologies

Yes it is, but the main problem is, SM's get most things "taught" to them by just planting everything in their head, needing to be unlocked in meditation.

Spartans we're trained from age 6 or something to be the best possible tacticians they could be, along with all their other training.

Astartes have eidetic memories and are nearly as much intellectual superiors to non-augmented humans as they are physically. As a bonus, the first Astartes to come across a dead Spartan can eat it and ingest any genetic memory/knowledge that it possessed.

I simply have no idea what background material you guys are reading where Astartes are thug-HURR Herp Derp fighters.

Never said they were. Just saying the way they are taught is completely different

As for finding a deaed SPARTAN, if he has buddies around they will most likely destroy the corpse by making the fusion reactor have a bad case of the meltdowns.

sourclams wrote:Astartes have eidetic memories and are nearly as much intellectual superiors to non-augmented humans as they are physically. As a bonus, the first Astartes to come across a dead Spartan can eat it and ingest any genetic memory/knowledge that it possessed.

I simply have no idea what background material you guys are reading where Astartes are thug-HURR Herp Derp fighters.

Astartes aren't taught to be intellectuals. Skilled in tactics yes, but thinkers, not really. Nothing suggests they are intellectual superiors to the average educated human, that's pure conjecture. A SPARTAN is however, and his enhancements increase his abilities significantly.

No one's saying they are.

SPARTANS have enchantments?! Adding magic isn't fair!

Sorry had to be done

I'm still for the evenly matched apart from weaponry.

dajobe wrote:on infiltration and covert ops, think of the raven guard, experts of ambushes and covert ops. and arent intelligence and resourcefulness one of the factors taken in to consideration when recruiting SM. And i guess i was wrong in the book thing, my apologies

Yes, it is, but they aren't as proficient as a SPARTAN, who is trained to be highly independent. Taking the Raven Guard is now choosing a very specialized strain of Astartes, I would then choose Grey Team, or Team Black, either would punk your Raven Guard into submission if it were down to stealth, or I would choose Noble Team, or Beta Platoon, good luck is all I can say.

Fanboy levels are now out of the roof.

I think we're done here...

Blood Angels are intellectuals. Also, artists.

If we're ignoring both fluff and game mechanics, then this entire debate boils down to which of the two you think is better, with absolutely no corroborating details or background information to support the claim. Then it simply becomes a matter of opinion, which means this "debate" (and I use that term very, very loosely) will never end.

Hah, done? What? My power levels are greater than your power levels.

Although those specialized stealth units you mentioned are all very...very good. It is tough to say that they are better than raven guard, as i have stated before, they face different types of enemies and all we can judge them upon is thier interactions with foes. where gray team(yes i read that book, but forgot which one) fights rebellious humans and covenants on patrol, raven guard fight chaos and orks and eldar. and generally speaking, i think that any of those races could OWN normal humans and most if not all covenant, both physically and technologically(maybe not orks on that one). So i think that SM generally have the more difficult foe, making the SM look worse and spartans look better.

Then its no longer a question on stealth and reverts to one of combat ability, which has stagnated. If its still about stealth, its hard to beat the Headhunter teams who have active camo and energy shielding. Fanboi levels aren't that high, I will have to disagree on that, guilty as I am.

i think this entire thread has stagnated,lol

Psienesis wrote:
If we're ignoring both fluff and game mechanics, then this entire debate boils down to which of the two you think is better, with absolutely no corroborating details or background information to support the claim. Then it simply becomes a matter of opinion, which means this "debate" (and I use that term very, very loosely) will never end.

Quite. This seems a great post to end this on.