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When forced to choose between a Spartan and a Space Marine....

...I pick...

James T. Kirk.

this comes up so many times, and everytime it has to be the SM, GW has just made them superwarriors. a small company of them takes over whole planets will billions of enemy warriors on them. SM have genetic growths that puts anything else to shame, they have an arsenal of weapons that blow up tanks, superheavys, almost anything, they have psykers, they have termie armor, they can carry stormshields.

all the sparten has is skill, some basic IG weapons equivalent weapons, some good armor maybe up to PA level...maybe, and thats about it. The SM have so many options as well as the higher levels of training and genetic opperation. A SM has prob fought in 100s of wars while a sparten has not. A Sm has fought against 1000s of various alien species and combat tactics, a spartan has not, a Sm is a greater warrior since he lives in a world that is only war, and his only purpose is to be the best war-machine out there, any of his weakness can be made void by various weapons, gear, training, etc. While a spartan has too many weakness when placed against a marine.

Soladrin wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You can't really apply game rules to a purely fluff discussion you know...

Also, theres more of them.

Fluff?
Truly are the Terminators amongst the greatest Heroes of Mankind, bold warriors in whom the indefatigable heroism of a Space Marine is combined with the terrible weaponry and indomitable mass of Tactical Dreadnought armour. No foe is safe from a Terminator assault, not a hoard of Orcs, adamantium fortress or colossal Chaos Titan. Terminators are invincible, they are unstoppable and they never yield.

Terminators have to deal with more dangerous enemies on a more regular basis than any Mobile Infantry unit. and having a gun that needs to be dropped from the sky isn't an advantage.

You obviously have no clue how powerfull MI suits are. Mini nukes are standard weapons for them. I´d like to see the suit of terminator armor capable of surviving that.

Terminator armor was designed to protect the wearer, and remain functional, inside an operational plasma reactor. Your mini-nuke means nothing to them.

Deadshane1 wrote:When forced to choose

between a Spartan

and a Space Marine....

...I pick...

James T. Kirk.

Fixed that for ya.

Psienesis wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You can't really apply game rules to a purely fluff discussion you know...

Also, theres more of them.

Fluff?
Truly are the Terminators amongst the greatest Heroes of Mankind, bold warriors in whom the indefatigable heroism of a Space Marine is combined with the terrible weaponry and indomitable mass of Tactical Dreadnought armour. No foe is safe from a Terminator assault, not a hoard of Orcs, adamantium fortress or colossal Chaos Titan. Terminators are invincible, they are unstoppable and they never yield.

Terminators have to deal with more dangerous enemies on a more regular basis than any Mobile Infantry unit. and having a gun that needs to be dropped from the sky isn't an advantage.

You obviously have no clue how powerfull MI suits are. Mini nukes are standard weapons for them. I´d like to see the suit of terminator armor capable of surviving that.

Terminator armor was designed to protect the wearer, and remain functional, inside an operational plasma reactor. Your mini-nuke means nothing to them.

Did you read his post?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sageheart wrote:this comes up so many times, and everytime it has to be the SM, GW has just made them superwarriors. a small company of them takes over whole planets will billions of enemy warriors on them. SM have genetic growths that puts anything else to shame, they have an arsenal of weapons that blow up tanks, superheavys, almost anything, they have psykers, they have termie armor, they can carry stormshields.

all the sparten has is skill, some basic IG weapons equivalent weapons, some good armor maybe up to PA level...maybe, and thats about it. The SM have so many options as well as the higher levels of training and genetic opperation. A SM has prob fought in 100s of wars while a sparten has not. A Sm has fought against 1000s of various alien species and combat tactics, a spartan has not, a Sm is a greater warrior since he lives in a world that is only war, and his only purpose is to be the best war-machine out there, any of his weakness can be made void by various weapons, gear, training, etc. While a spartan has too many weakness when placed against a marine.

Good job not realizing that you nearly described SPARTANS in that Please don't make "clever" attempts to circumvent the swear filter. Again. post about Space Marines. The only difference being the variety of enemies.

Yes, I did, specifically this part that I replied to:

You obviously have no clue how powerfull MI suits are. Mini nukes are standard weapons for them. I´d like to see the suit of terminator armor capable of surviving that.

... Terminators still laugh at your mini-nukes.

Are we talking bad fluff terminators, yknow the ones that can survive being stomped on by a titan?

Yes. Most lubriciously overpowered fan boy fluff in the 40k universe vs halo

if its any other spartan than the MasterCheif or Emile, then the marine would win.

That is where this entire... argument... falls apart: fluff vs in-game mechanics.

In the fluff, both sides of this comparison are nigh-invulnerable, near-perfect killing machines, the absolute best their faction (Imperium or UCAS) has to throw at their enemy.

In actual game play? Hmm... not so much. I can't count the number of SPARTANS I've killed with a butt-stroke to the back of the head with a shotgun in deathmatch, or the number of times in the 1P-campaign I've had to restart a section because of getting killed. I also cannot count the number of Space Marines I've left dead on the field on Kurava, or a Space Hulk, or any other number of settings in the WH40K universe.

While rad grenades/weapons have fell out of use, SM armor and terminator armor both had rad suits incorporated into them in RT. They could shrug off a radiation attack. While I would Imagine a direct hit or blast radius hit would kill a marine, thinking a tactical nuke is roughly a D weapon. It would also do the same to PA or Spartan armor. This is what it comes down to, luck.

A spartan has about a 16% chance to kill a Space Marine. While a Space marine given enough time will automatically kill a Spartan. Spartan's armor is in game play able to sustain x amount of damage, SM armor has a 1/3 chance to shrug off any normal attack. Followed by a the marines natural toughness; assuming Spartan armor increases damage to the toughness of a marine, that's a 50% chance to wound, followed by a 1/3 chance to penetrate armor giving a 16% of penetration. But, most likely the Spartan power armor has a strength similar to a sister power armor. That's now 1/3 chance to wound, 1/3 chance to penetrate armor, giving roughly 11% chance to damage a Marine.

This does mean though, that a Spartan could 1 shot a marine, and a marine can't one shot a Spartan without a "butt-stroke" from a shotgun.

iproxtaco wrote:

Soladrin wrote:The difference is that dodging a bullet seems to say that you are seeing the bullet flying and dodging it (neo style) when you dodge a gunshot, your not seeing the bullet, but dodging the path you think it will take. It's acadamic but that's how I like to see it XD

Anyway, aren't bolts slower then regular bullets? So this would make it easier.

There's still not a huge difference, or one that matters. It's pretty over the top I admit, but the evidence is there, and I won't argue with it, preferring the SPARTANS over the Space Marines.

Edit: Thanks for the heads up! I forgot about RvB completely.

Wait, just because SPARTAN can dodge a bullet you are putting him above Space Marine?
What about Space Marine super reflexes? It is stated in cannon xxxxx times that Space Marines can hit Eldar on run, and I bet that Banshee can even dodge Lasgun shot.
And how is bullet dogging is going to help SPARTAN in cc with Space Marine? It is clear that Marines are match even for Tyranids and Orks when it comes to cc. Master Chief can barelly kill Elite in cc without power sword.

I am sorry but Spartan is so down against Space Marine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

I would have the same conversation. If it's down to "luck" then Master Chief has plenty of "luck".

No kidding?
Slaming the planet, twice. And survive.
Blowing up one of the greatest structures in the universe, twice. And survive.
Killing 99% of Covenant army.
Blowing up Covenant ship by taking himself and bomb trough the airlock, entering the ship, exiting the ship while explodes and them landing on one of his own ships...

I bet that MC and Draigo are drinking beer and watching football every Sunday night, and giving hive-five to one another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:When forced to choose between a Spartan and a Space Marine....

...I pick...

James T. Kirk.

quoted for truth, they always win at the end in a very unsuspected way.
I thing that they can actually kill Chaos Gods if they ever face them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
Good job not realizing that you nearly described SPARTANS in that post about Space Marines. The only difference being the variety of enemies.

No, the difference is that Bungie used Space Marines as plot for SPARTANS ( like that was not obvious enough ).

The difference is: enemies, training, living, psychic powers, zeal, faith, equipment, genetic alteration ( level of ), speed, accuracy...

But, giving that there are people on this forum that actually thinks that we can beat Imperium at war, any other pointing is futile. As much as I love Master Chief, I realize that he would be baked and eaten by Space Wolves, and his blood drunk after short cc duel.

And as much as you people argue with this 12 pages none has even said about SPARTAN chance in cc against Marine. You just implemented the genetic alteration, bullet dodging and how SPARTAN is superior ( even if that isn't true ).

Toastedandy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
actually,


TDA was first developed as a maintanance suit for operating inside a working plasma reactor(aka Fusion)


a suit of armor which can operate inside a working Fusion core can withstand a nuclear blast.

I dont want to be pedantic, but you dont need to push enter so many times after each sentence. As it makes it a little confusing to read.

would you rather i type like this with little to no punctuation like little kids often do I think its alot easier to understand how i type then how other posters do so dont cast stones at people who are doing mostly correct

Just making a point

Grey Templar wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
actually,


TDA was first developed as a maintanance suit for operating inside a working plasma reactor(aka Fusion)


a suit of armor which can operate inside a working Fusion core can withstand a nuclear blast.

I dont want to be pedantic, but you dont need to push enter so many times after each sentence. As it makes it a little confusing to read.

would you rather i type like this with little to no punctuation like little kids often do I think its alot easier to understand how i type then how other posters do so dont cast stones at people who are doing mostly correct


Just making a point

Pressing enter a lot isn't punctuation either you know... your kinda making yourself look silly now.



Anyway, as for direct cc, yeah a Space Marine probably would win 95% of the time. But that isn't really a fair comparison to begin with. SPARTAN's, though hand to hand experts, don't come from a universe where melee weapons are seen as useful when you can shoot someone up close just as easily, all they get is a good knife.

If we were to look at this as 2 competitors in a giant arena with lots of stuff going I'd say that purely based on skills and abilities etc. it's pretty much a 50/50 battle. However, the W40k Universe just has far superior weaponry. The only non-heavy weapon a SPARTAN can bring to kill a SM would be the sniper rifle, any of the normal gun's would never penetrate.

So in the end, comparison is crap because of the giant difference in weapons.

Sageheart wrote:this comes up so many times, and everytime it has to be the SM, GW has just made them superwarriors. a small company of them takes over whole planets will billions of enemy warriors on them. SM have genetic growths that puts anything else to shame, they have an arsenal of weapons that blow up tanks, superheavys, almost anything, they have psykers, they have termie armor, they can carry stormshields.

all the sparten has is skill, some basic IG weapons equivalent weapons, some good armor maybe up to PA level...maybe, and thats about it. The SM have so many options as well as the higher levels of training and genetic opperation. A SM has prob fought in 100s of wars while a sparten has not. A Sm has fought against 1000s of various alien species and combat tactics, a spartan has not, a Sm is a greater warrior since he lives in a world that is only war, and his only purpose is to be the best war-machine out there, any of his weakness can be made void by various weapons, gear, training, etc. While a spartan has too many weakness when placed against a marine.

It doesn't matter if a small company can take a planet when we're talking 1 v 1, also the bullet dodging debate was to show the SPARTAN has better reflex's, although I don't think they far excell from the Marines

As I said earlier they are close enough where it very well may come to luck(standard SPARTAN vs. standard SM) however everyone on the SPARTAN side seems to take the Mary Sue of the SPARTANs and pit it against standard SMs, of course the SM will lose, however if we pitted 2 mary sues then it would be different

so you can have Master Chief if we get Draigo.


lets see. insanely lucky vs a dude who went and burned an in the front yard of a god and roasted marshmellows over it.


my money is on Draigo

iproxtaco wrote:Gun shot, bullet, is there a difference? It was dodged regardless. There's not a chance because that's not how it's written.

Technically there is a huge difference. There are two noises that come from a gun when a bullet is fired. The first one is the hammer hitting the primer and creating a small "pop" noise as it ignites the powder inside the shell casing. The second noise it makes is the sonic boom from coming out of the barrel. That means that most bullets travel at or above the speed of sound. You would hear it, but only after it had traveled a few thousand feet possibly more if it is a high powder load.

So, I would have to assume two things about SPARTANS then (granted I am guessing I don't like the Halo games):

1) The SPARTAN actually can see the bullet and dodged it
2) The SPARTAN anticipated the bullets trajectory and preemptively dodged it


I think given the lore and the mythos of both worlds, and yes I played through Halo 1 and 2 and thought they weren't all that great, that the Warhammer 40K universe just has better technology. If you go all the way back to Rogue Trader, or hell, the 31st Millennium the Space Marines in most regards are better warriors. Are we comparing Space Marines now, via 5th edition or at their prime? SPARTANS at their latest, or at their prime?

Dodging bullets is one thing, dodging orbital air strikes they use to cleanse Tryanid planets is another thing. You cannot dodge Psyker abilities, you cannot dodge giant blast radius weapons. Then we look at end game warfare. Space Marines have Titans, and I cannot think of any of the Halo end game war machine technology that would stand up to say, a Titan.

Though I suppose I am digressing since the comparison is strictly meant to compare the SM and the SPARTAN.

Reflexs don't count for sh*t when a SM can punch a hole through your armor.

coolyo294 wrote:Reflexs don't count for sh*t when a SM can punch a hole through your armor.

Sure they do, it's called "dodging" so you don't get hit.

King Pariah wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Reflexs don't count for sh*t when a SM can punch a hole through your armor.

Sure they do, it's called "dodging" so you don't get hit.

I said when, implying that once a SM can land a blow on a SPARTAN, it's all over.

King Pariah wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Reflexs don't count for sh*t when a SM can punch a hole through your armor.

Sure they do, it's called "dodging" so you don't get hit.

Try dogging a enemy that can hit Eldar Banshee in full speed...

Grey Templar wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
actually,


TDA was first developed as a maintanance suit for operating inside a working plasma reactor(aka Fusion)


a suit of armor which can operate inside a working Fusion core can withstand a nuclear blast.

I dont want to be pedantic, but you dont need to push enter so many times after each sentence. As it makes it a little confusing to read.

would you rather i type like this with little to no punctuation like little kids often do I think its alot easier to understand how i type then how other posters do so dont cast stones at people who are doing mostly correct

Just making a point

So my choice is either for you to type so its confusing to read, or impossible to understand? Id rather you didnt post at all then

How is it hard to understand if there is a couple of lines in between sentances?

are peoples attention spans getting so short they can't jump a few space down and hold the thought?

Grey Templar wrote:How is it hard to understand if there is a couple of lines in between sentances?

are peoples attention spans getting so short they can't jump a few space down and hold the thought?

Man I didn't mean to offend.







But it makes it seem you are moving to another point.










Instead of just continuing the same sentence.







So hitting enter so many times is unnecessary.









See what I mean?

Its usually just a couple of lines and they are always even numbers(not random numbers between them)

stop nitpicking over a minor detail. go after the txt spkers, not me.

There is another way to see who is better.
Just look at SPARTAN and Space Marine enemies...

SPARTANS only faced Covenant ( who raped them ) and Flood who they defeated with pure luck ( giant ancient time super weapon galaxy killing * destroy all life with push of a button* machine. Give me a break.... ).

Space Marines face Chaos with Daemons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, Tau Empire, various rebel forcess, rasing alien empires... and they all face them in the same time. And they kick all their buts with only more, less 1.000.000 battle brothers ( and with HUGE help from Guard, Sisters, PDF, Mechanicus, Navy and Inquisition ).

One more thing:






I








SUPPORT








GREY











TEMPLAR










!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Soladrin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You can't really apply game rules to a purely fluff discussion you know...

Also, theres more of them.

Fluff?
Truly are the Terminators amongst the greatest Heroes of Mankind, bold warriors in whom the indefatigable heroism of a Space Marine is combined with the terrible weaponry and indomitable mass of Tactical Dreadnought armour. No foe is safe from a Terminator assault, not a hoard of Orcs, adamantium fortress or colossal Chaos Titan. Terminators are invincible, they are unstoppable and they never yield.

Terminators have to deal with more dangerous enemies on a more regular basis than any Mobile Infantry unit. and having a gun that needs to be dropped from the sky isn't an advantage.

You obviously have no clue how powerfull MI suits are. Mini nukes are standard weapons for them. I´d like to see the suit of terminator armor capable of surviving that.

actually,


TDA was first developed as a maintanance suit for operating inside a working plasma reactor(aka Fusion)


a suit of armor which can operate inside a working Fusion core can withstand a nuclear blast.

No, it can't, because a plasma reactor is just heat and Radiation, a nuklear explosions main damage comes from the instant release of energy and resulting shockwave.

well I can say that in games terms a Terminator has a 45% chance of surviving a Nuke. otherwise, what is this Nuke? is it a grenade or explosive round? in either case are you setting up a situation specifically where the MI could win, meaning, 1000 miles away? (keep in mind, I know nothing about nuclear blast damage and area of effects).

the only situation where the MI has a clear advantage is at extreme range as far as I know, which, I admit, isn't out of thier capabilities to achieve.

Lotet wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You can't really apply game rules to a purely fluff discussion you know...

Also, theres more of them.

Fluff?
Truly are the Terminators amongst the greatest Heroes of Mankind, bold warriors in whom the indefatigable heroism of a Space Marine is combined with the terrible weaponry and indomitable mass of Tactical Dreadnought armour. No foe is safe from a Terminator assault, not a hoard of Orcs, adamantium fortress or colossal Chaos Titan. Terminators are invincible, they are unstoppable and they never yield.

Terminators have to deal with more dangerous enemies on a more regular basis than any Mobile Infantry unit. and having a gun that needs to be dropped from the sky isn't an advantage.

You obviously have no clue how powerfull MI suits are. Mini nukes are standard weapons for them. I´d like to see the suit of terminator armor capable of surviving that.

actually,


TDA was first developed as a maintanance suit for operating inside a working plasma reactor(aka Fusion)


a suit of armor which can operate inside a working Fusion core can withstand a nuclear blast.

No, it can't, because a plasma reactor is just heat and Radiation, a nuklear explosions main damage comes from the instant release of energy and resulting shockwave.

well I can say that in games terms a Terminator has a 45% chance of surviving a Nuke. otherwise, what is this Nuke? is it a grenade or explosive round? in either case are you setting up a situation specifically where the MI could win, meaning, 1000 miles away? (keep in mind, I know nothing about nuclear blast damage and area of effects).

the only situation where the MI has a clear advantage is at extreme range as far as I know, which, I admit, isn't out of thier capabilities to achieve.

They have mini-nukes as standard equipment. That means that each MI trooper has more than one mini-nuke. Whereas a terminator can survive a mini-nuke, I think it'd be hard-pressed to survive a barrage of them.

and a Terminator can use an Assault Cannon or a Storm Bolter/Cyclone Missile Launcher combo. he can ake out tanks. I mean, we both know the Terminator can take more damage but the firepower of both is so powerful as to make it pointless to compare, the MI would die from the guns first.

unless the Terminator isn't shooting at him for some reason