Empire rumors (Fantasy) -- 3/30 official advance order pics are up!

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**plastictrees**

sebster wrote:

But if GW has already built a new plastic sprue for horses, as we know they have by the existance of new horses in the new kits, why not offer those with knights?

There isn't a new seperate barded horse sprue though, they're on the larger "fancy wagon" sprue. The horses are also straining forward, which is a nice little detail but makes them less than ideal for cavalry mounts.

**Minsc**

Kroothawk wrote:Also all statetroops except spearmen have gone up 1 points (including crossbows, handgunners and greatswords)

So, wait, an Empire Swordsman is 7pts? That's... interesting. I can't see them winning against most other core at this price.

Kroothawk wrote:The steam tank will have t6

This change will greatly reduce tarpit potential. And anti-War Machine capabilities (Bolt Throwers will wound on 4's or 3's now, depending on if normal or Dorf, and Cannons on 2's).

**Kroothawk**

More from frenka over at Warseer who claims to have access to the book:

Ok report on the book now:
Magic items are as i've said about them. steel banner is 35 points

General up with 15pts start with light armour and the hold your ground special rule. No ancient heirlom rule.
Grand master i think was up by 20pts and cannot choose demigryph mount
Archlector down by 25, altar up by 50, only has power lvl 4 banishment as spell now
Wizard down by 10

Captain up by 10 start with same as general
warrior priest down by 25pts same prayers as i said before.
witch hunters will be the same as the old captain price, and the "heresy rule" is that he gains reroll to hit and killingblow against the target. He gives his unit immune to terror ( it only causes fear to the unit) and himselfe is also immune to fear (not the whole unit). He reroll to wound against wizards, undeads and demons.

(core)
All heroes and chars that used to be able to ride pegasi can still do so. pegasi down by 5pts and got some upgrades like +1 stomp or reroll 1's on the charge.

All statetroops are up by 1 point except spearmen. Swordsmen are down to i3.
militia is up by 1 and archers goes down 1pts.
knights ( i correct myselfe here) is down by ONE point. and only 1 unit may be innercircle and ONLY that unit may take a magic banner.

(special)
greatswords are up by1 but can take magic banners
mortars are up by 33% and are s2(6)
great cannons are up by 20%
Flagellants are now a special unit (gets ws3!! ) and takes d6 s3 when sacrificing 1 dead= reroll to hit, 2dead = reroll to wound, 4+dead = +1t
Huntsmen are now special choice at same price as old handgunners and archers.
Demigryphs can take either halberds or lances (normal halberds)

(rare)
Helblaster is like before but with new missfire chart: 1 missfire, the rest of the barrels shoot half their number, 2 missfires, roll on blackpowderchart, 3 missfires, 30hits and the machine explodes. Can now use the engineers BS to fire
helstorm fires d3 s3 small templates. roll artillery dice + the number of template scatterdices ( allways counted as inderect fire)
Steamtank is now down by 50pts. the steamboiler works like you roll a artydice, if the number is higher than your current wounds or a missfire, roll on the missfirechart. to do this roll a d3 + the number of steampoints you generated.
gets d6 random move per steam point. steamgun now works like a breathweapon in CC aswell as shooting only that it works in CC every turn. The strenght of the steamgun depends on how much steampoints you put on it up to s6.

The light mobile gives a dispeldice, 6++ to all units within 6" and fires a boundspell power 4. s8 flaming magic missile that does d3wounds and pierce ranks like boltthrower. reroll wounds against undeads and demons
The heavens mobile gives +1 to hit in cc and has a boundspell that shoots a template that can do damage or turn the targeted unit towards a random direction.

Detachment rule is as i've mentioned. there was a list of special rules that passed from the parent unit to the detachment. i dont remember all of them
(...)
The missfirechart for the steamtank isnt just BAD, it can be that it looses d3 steampoints that turn etc. So it might still be able to do its buissness.
On the charge it can do d6+d3xsteampoints spent s6. and in CC it does d3 s6 hits per steampoint to 1 unit
I can confirm that it is down to t6
The chance that the tank will have to roll on the missfire chart doesnt depend on how many steampoints you generate anymore. You nominate how many steampoints just like 7th ed. And yes to your question about consequences

Wait so it does D6 + (D3 x SP) on the charge, and then once it's in it does another (D3 x SP)?

No. it does d3 x sp when not charging
And the pass all characteristics test rule seemed to be gone. same thing with allways failing I-tests. as the engineer has i3. i think that is what it passes on

**Aerethan**

Swordsmen losing 1I is rough on top of the points increase. I'll still run them as I have the models but I'm less happy about it now.

Making things more expensive seems to go against the GW rule of making things cheaper so you need more of them.

I suppose we'll have to wait until the book is out to really figure out how to min/max them properly. I see myself playing 2 lists: a balls to the walls list with a Waltar and a Sigmarite theme, and then a more traditional Empire list with a GotE, wizard lord and some captains.

**kenshin620**

I can foresee oodles of Empire people dumping swordsmen for Halberds now

Ahh the classic "nerf something everyone has so people will buy more of a different unit" tactic

**Ehsteve**

Great job nerfing swordsmen GW, could've sold me a whole bunch before this. Certainly looked cooler than Halberd spam and the stats made them a cut above the rest.

Hurricanum sounds awesome though, +1 to hit in CC in combination with rerolls to hit has some serious potential, though we will have to wait for the points cost and to see if it actually has a ward save (if it doesn't, it is a wasted kit). No a complete fan of the steamtank nerf seeing as how expensive the model is.

Hist mobile bolt thrower does sound interesting, especially against Ogres and ethereal enemies, especially since it's so easy to cast. However a 6+ Ward is lacklustre, they should take a note from the Lizardmen Engine of the Gods and turn that into a 5+ Ward minimum (Wow! My halberds have an effective parry save, sorry GW, no dice).

Cheaper wizards, always good. Cheaper warpriest, obviously they want you to use 1-3 in each army. Witch Hunter stands on a knife edge, he will need access to some good magic items and a decent statline or otherwise he is another wasted character.

**Alpharius**

Can someone explain why Swordsmen would go up by a point AND lose a point of initiative?

Because the only reason I can see is the one that kenshin620 put forth...

Too many people took Swordsmen, GW thinks Halberdiers are the Iconic Empire Troop, i.e., "nerf something everyone has so people will buy more of a different unit" that they probably don't already own?

**biccat**

Considering spearmen stayed the same price, I suspect GW wanted to push spearmen.

Lots of people already run Halberds, after all.

**kenshin620**

biccat wrote:Considering spearmen stayed the same price, I suspect GW wanted to push spearmen.

Lots of people already run Halberds, after all.

Yea but spearmen in most armies dont do very well anyways so no one would take spearmen

Supporting attacks killed off the main reason to take spears (double attack vs 1/3 more). S3 troops tend to just be a block that holds, not kill. Parry saves help that, not spears

**xxvaderxx**

Did we get ANYTHING good out of this edition?, i mean, compared to the 7th edition book, we got nerfed all around and we were already a mid tier army to begin with.

The swordmen loosing I, is not a big deal, I isnt useful for blocks, but getting one point more expensive on an already overcooked troop (all state troops for that matter is ridiculous).

Mortairs s2 and 30% more expensive? really?.

**Minsc**

The Witch Hunter - assuming stats at least slightly comparable to a Hero - should do decent against the armies he re-rolls to Wound against (Undead, specifically, as Daemons can probably mulch him before he strikes).

Steam Tank is at once more and less reliable. On one hand, does this mean a max of 10 Steam Points? And now if reduced to, say, 6 wounds, you can still reasonably function (half your rolls giving you 2-6 steam points, whereas now 6 wounds means 50% failure chance at 2 Steam Points). On the other, you can Misfire and auto-fail any turn, and you can't choose how many Steam Points you're going for (33% chance of only 2 or insta-misfire when at max wounds, whereas 10 Wounds now means 100% success rate for four Steam Points).

I can only assume the Swordsman went up in cost due to the detachment changes (if some special rule is applied to Swordsmen, it's also applied to their sub-units) and as part of some long-term plan to raise the Core costs in general (Orcs went up in price, for example, and while Skeletons went down they're still 4pts / model for Goblin statline with crumble and fear). Not that this makes them any more viable now: Halberdiers will rule the day for at least the next few army books.

**xxvaderxx**

Minsc wrote:
I can only assume the Swordsman went up in cost due to the detachment changes (if some special rule is applied to Swordsmen, it's also applied to their sub-units) and as part of some long-term plan to raise the Core costs in general (Orcs went up in price, for example, and while Skeletons went down they're still 4pts / model for Goblin statline with crumble and fear). Not that this makes them any more viable now: Halberdiers will rule the day for at least the next few army books.

How does this work? this is the only thing i can see saving the army, state troops were already expensive for what they did, now are MORE so. Unless we get grate benefits from what you described, like say, casting beast default on main unit and detachment getting it as well.

what about the prayers, are they finally useful?.

**Polonius**

I nevere really played fantasy, but I have a painted empire army that I've occasionally thought about bulding up to modern standards. 8th edition didn't interest me much... and these rumors aren't helping.

Anybody interested in 6th edition empire?

**sebster**

biccat wrote:Considering spearmen stayed the same price, I suspect GW wanted to push spearmen.

Lots of people already run Halberds, after all.

I think that's basically it. Spearmen were woeful in 8th compared to the other state troops, so they raised the price. The problem being the other troops were hardly wonderful for what you paid, they were par to slightly below, with the Empire doing well because of their other strengths (mortars, cannon and warrior priests).

They should have given spearmen a slight boost, perhaps by giving free shields to all state troops (which would benefit spearmen just enough, and halberdiers very little). Swordsmen would remain the same, but get their own small boost by making the wizard mobile (I forget which one) that gives the ward save stack with their own parry save.

Instead they went for the blunt approach of increasing both units. It looks like they're going for a new model for the Empire, base troops that are way more expensive than they should be, supported by bonuses from characters and engines of war. It isn't a bad model per se, but GW's recent effort in making it work, the Tyranid book in 40K, was pretty much pure fail, because from what I can see of their game design, they price the big unit that gives a bonus according to the bonus it provides, but then also price the new unit for having the option of getting a boost.

One price or the other is workable, charging for both ensures a mediocre army.

And then when you consider mortars weren't just corrected by positively gimped, the already more expensive than they should be missile troops got a price hike, and the boosts given by the new wizard mobiles don't really sound that great, then the whole book starts to look pretty woeful.

**Talarn Blackshard**

Well Empire was my first army so I will probably make a return to WFB with them once again...

**Sirius42**

While this is going to sound like i'm trolling i'm really not...

I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).

more expensive war machines might also cut down on some of the WM spam lists that seem ever present in empire currently. Also, I3 swordsmen seems right, from a fluff perspective, remember, its still only a bog standard human.

Also, more expensive war machines means we might just see some of the larger monster gribblies make the table now.... maybe?

**biccat**

kenshin620 wrote:S3 troops tend to just be a block that holds, not kill. Parry saves help that, not spears

Good news - there's a brand-new kit (only $40) that will give your spearmen blocks a 6+ ward save! It's vulnerable to shooting, so you should take two.

Sirius42 wrote:I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).

If you were just talking about O&G, then I'd agree. But Ogres, Vampires, and Tomb Kings are all going to run circles around the new Empire.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Are GW really saying that a 7 point swordsman is better than a 6 point dark elf spearman (elf!) with higher WS,I,Ld and eternal hatred.

**Thunderfrog**

Obviously puffy shirts and cod piece saves come at a premium.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Well, the swordsmen do get ward saves, so I guess that's worth the extra point....if it weren't for the DE's higher WS, I and rerolls to hit.

**kenshin620**

biccat wrote:

Sirius42 wrote:I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).

If you were just talking about O&G, then I'd agree. But Ogres, Vampires, and Tomb Kings are all going to run circles around the new Empire.

Hmm there may have been some negatives tweaks but come now, I dont think Empire has hit Beastmen tier yet

**Clarence**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Are GW really saying that a 7 point swordsman is better than a 6 point dark elf spearman (elf!) with higher WS,I,Ld and eternal hatred.

They actually have the same WS. And a 6pt Dark Elf Spearman has no shield.

It's better to compare the 6pt Empire Spearman with shield to the 7pt Dark Elf Spearman with shield.

+1pt gives you extra M, WS, I, and LD

Then again, it's generally accepted that the Dark Elf Spearman is undercosted.

**Sirius42**

kenshin620 wrote:
biccat wrote:

Sirius42 wrote:I think that these changes are pretty good actually to bring empire in line with the other 8th ed books (which so far all seem remarkably consistent to themselves, even though they are no where near some of the 7th ed ones).

If you were just talking about O&G, then I'd agree. But Ogres, Vampires, and Tomb Kings are all going to run circles around the new Empire.

Hmm there may have been some negatives tweaks but come now, I dont think Empire has hit Beastmen tier yet

Part of the issue of the points costs (and this also goes to the dark elf spearmen comments) is that it has to take into context with the army as a whole. For example IMO VC ghouls are overpriced on their own, but with the vampire magic, items, corpse cart and mortis engine they become well worth it.

**abbazabba1920**

Again, we're comparing to 8th ed., not 7th ed. books. I'm sure there will be plenty of viable Empire lists.

**Aerethan**

I'll play the empire for fun and fluff. If I want to win I'll play VC or DE.

I have always loved the Empire and will continue to do so no matter what the nerfs and laser beams are.

**sebster**

Sirius42 wrote:more expensive war machines might also cut down on some of the WM spam lists that seem ever present in empire currently. Also, I3 swordsmen seems right, from a fluff perspective, remember, its still only a bog standard human.

Which is a perfectly sensible piece of reasoning, if we weren't also expected to pay 7 points per model for that bog standard human.

And that's really the core of the issue people are having here, everyone expected and was okay with war machines copping a hit, but they've nerfed most everything else and increased the price (flagellants were increased in price, had martyrdom made worse and they weren't very good to begin with).

**Alpharius**

sebster wrote:
Sirius42 wrote:more expensive war machines might also cut down on some of the WM spam lists that seem ever present in empire currently. Also, I3 swordsmen seems right, from a fluff perspective, remember, its still only a bog standard human.

Which is a perfectly sensible piece of reasoning, if we weren't also expected to pay 7 points per model for that bog standard human.

And that's really the core of the issue people are having here, everyone expected and was okay with war machines copping a hit, but they've nerfed most everything else and increased the price (flagellants were increased in price, had martyrdom made worse and they weren't very good to begin with).

You're right - and you're making me get even more depressed!

**Agamemnon2**

Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

**lord_blackfang**

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

See, this is why previews are bad.

**Johnny-Crass**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

See, this is why previews are bad.

Because they save you money?