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I was in GW yesterday and apparently the new empire are VERY hard hitting against the new VC...take with a heap of salt, this blue shirt did also say that the new 40k big box wont be marines and chaos...so yeah...LOTS of salt...

"Hardhitting against VC" = "Witchhunter will mulch basic VC infantry", if I had to guess. Not a lie (here's a new Empire model that hits new VC, especially if with magic / flaming equipment), but not by any means what was implied either (that new Empire can steamroll VC's if played at equal competitiveness w/ equal skill players).

As a VC player, Empire have gone pretty much to the top of the list as bad opponents to play against. Demons of Chaos are still up there too.

But the sheer amount of flaming and Light based attacks are scary. I can face any number of cannons and be fine with it, but the lazer is pretty damn scary I have to say.

A lot of the VC army now works on regen (from the Mortis engine, or inherent). An army which can field a multitude of flaming attacks negates this advantage easily, and adding in the other bonus' from the Lore of Light etc, and I will have real troubles going up against them. Not to mention sniping Witch Hunters and Warrior Priests.

I don't understand why so many people are up in arms about this new Empire book. Sounds pretty damn cool to me, and the new rules for detachments make it sound like they will be dead hard to go up against!

Are they coming out today or tommorow?

hotsauceman1 wrote:Are they coming out today or tommorow?

Yes

TBD wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Are they coming out today or tommorow?

Yes

Well i just got the Engineer from my FLGS.
They release it a day early

hotsauceman1 wrote:

TBD wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Are they coming out today or tommorow?

Yes

Well i just got the Engineer from my FLGS.
They release it a day early

My FLGS usually sells the stuff a couple of days early too... if GW forgets to intentionally send them the new releases late that is

On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.

Out of curiosity, who really charges cavalry at cavalry rather than flank charging?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.

Out of curiosity, who really charges cavalry at cavalry rather than flank charging?

Depends on the cavalry and situation. I have very little problem charging my Chaos Knights into other people's cavalry (most of the cavalry I see is either Empire or Brettonians).

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.

Out of curiosity, who really charges cavalry at cavalry rather than flank charging?

Depends on the cavalry and situation. I have very little problem charging my Chaos Knights into other people's cavalry (most of the cavalry I see is either Empire or Brettonians).

That's the example I was going to use - I've seen that particular scenario quite a bit!

I got a closer look at the new Empire models today. I have to say, the sculpting and design of the new war machines isn't up to the standard of recent Warhammer releases - the proportions are off, the 'crew' are poorly sculpted (and ugly) and no amount of ornamentation can hide the fact that they're distinctly uninspired. I have compared the large Warmachine models unfavourably with GW's plastic war machines, but these new Empire designs are greatly inferior. The demigryphs are okay, but the riders are uninspired and unattractive. The giant griffon and the 2 plastic character models seem to be the best of this 'wave'.

Oh, and regarding the the notion of the Empire being nerfed: The way I see it, if an existing army is going to effectively require the purchase of the brand-new kit released for that army to remain competitive, then the army has been nerfed. If my Empire collection, as currently composed, can no longer remain competitive, then it has been nerfed.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Oh, and regarding the the notion of the Empire being nerfed: The way I see it, if an existing army is going to effectively require the purchase of the brand-new kit released for that army to remain competitive, then the army has been nerfed. If my Empire collection, as currently composed, can no longer remain competitive, then it has been nerfed.

So when everyone is saying that the Empire is being nerfed, what they are actually saying is that the old units that were good have been nerfed, not that the Empire have been nerfed?

ph34r wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Oh, and regarding the the notion of the Empire being nerfed: The way I see it, if an existing army is going to effectively require the purchase of the brand-new kit released for that army to remain competitive, then the army has been nerfed. If my Empire collection, as currently composed, can no longer remain competitive, then it has been nerfed.

So when everyone is saying that the Empire is being nerfed, what they are actually saying is that the old units that were good have been nerfed, not that the Empire have been nerfed?

Since not everyone can feasibly acquire the new units (my wife gave me 'the look' when I told her about even getting the book), making the effectiveness of the army hinge on those units counts as a nerfing to me. As always, your mileage may vary.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Since not everyone can feasibly acquire the new units (my wife gave me 'the look' when I told her about even getting the book), making the effectiveness of the army hinge on those units counts as a nerfing to me. As always, your mileage may vary.

Gotcha.

GW needs to sell models. The new models only sell if there's a need for them.

Breotan wrote:GW needs to sell models. The new models only sell if there's a need for them.

I understand your point, but allowing people to spend two years painstakingly painting a horde army and then nerfing half of the models in it is not a sustainable way to grow your business - it's a way to get your customers to rage quit and go play warmahordes. A warhammer fantasy army is a massive investment of time and money, the biggest that any of the gaming system's asks for, and you need to know that you are going to get value out of it.

Hoard Of Hordes wrote:is not a sustainable way to grow your business

So is

-Rising prices for no reason
-Swapping a tried and true method of production for a miscast ridden one, and then raise prices
-Changing the cover of all army books, and then raise prices
-Changing the contents of a box, such as lowering the amount of models, and then raise prices

and on and on. Remember, GW logic is not business 101 logic

That said people buy their stuff regardless anyways for years now

Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.

Eidolon wrote:Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.

And there we go! The typical "Why is X army/system getting updated! I dont play X army/system!"

At least 40k got their books right off the bat of 5th, fantasy players had to wait half a year to get their first

At I'm not seeing the 2/1 ratio

5 Fantasy books for 8th. 8 40k books for 5th, and thats not counting all the supplements 40k got and all the FW books. 40k seems to be slower because it is more drawn out timeline wise, plus with the rumors of 6th it will look like this summer will be almost nothing BUT 40k

People are so impulsive and impatient Remarks like this does not help the schism between each fanbase

Got some Empire yesterday at the FLGS and paints etc.

They had 2 Witch Hunters in stock. One had a warped sprue and the other didn't, I bought the one that didn't. Mostly a good Finecast, nothing that wouldn't be fixable.

I also got the Empire Captain (broadsword) and on checking out, realized that the Empire Engineer sprue was inside my captain container... so I made sure to get the correct Captain before I left.

Seems like mistakes easily attributed to rushing releases out so fast. I don't play Fantasy, but the models are incredibly well suited for Mordheim. Wish they had more plastic foot dudes in boxes. Deathclaw, the War Machines, etc. are of no use to me.

ph34r wrote:So when everyone is saying that the Empire is being nerfed, what they are actually saying is that the old units that were good have been nerfed, not that the Empire have been nerfed?

Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.

The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.

Eidolon wrote:Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.

[Insert not sure if serious picture]

inferior system? We have a balanced system compared to whatever 40k wants to be. Just can it and wait for your edition change yea?

biccat wrote:Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.

The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.

Fair enough. What is your opinion on the reroll to wound and 5++ warrior priest powers, along with the parent units giving detachments steadfast? If I am not mistaken (I might be!) these are new and strong abilities for standard infantry?

biccat wrote:Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.

The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.

T3 and nearly 60pts? Sorry when a unit can be plinked to death by arrow reliably and you can take Reiksguard for a comparible cost (being stubborn and all) or can get a flaggelant horde due to uncapping, they should be at the bottom of the priority list unless you're in it purely for the models. For the demigryph's points cost you won't be able to get enough models to negate steadfast ever (a unit of 6 will cost around 350pts unupgraded in any way). Expect them to be held up in combat until weight of attacks bring them down.

Inner circle are Core now anyway, so they don't eat into your Special points allotment and you can have both if you want (now being able to both have your cake and eat it).

Ehsteve wrote:

biccat wrote:Except I (and others) don't think that the new units make up for the nerf that the old units got.

The Demigryphs are the best new unit in the book (with new models). The Reiksguard might replace Inner Circle knights.

T3 and nearly 60pts? Sorry when a unit can be plinked to death by arrow reliably and you can take Reiksguard for a comparible cost (being stubborn and all) or can get a flaggelant horde due to uncapping, they should be at the bottom of the priority list unless you're in it purely for the models. For the demigryph's points cost you won't be able to get enough models to negate steadfast ever (a unit of 6 will cost around 350pts unupgraded in any way). Expect them to be held up in combat until weight of attacks bring them down.

Inner circle are Core now anyway, so they don't eat into your Special points allotment and you can have both if you want (now being able to both have your cake and eat it).

Demigryphs are 3W with 1+ saves. I don't think S3 is going to do much.

^ They're also toughness 4. I think Steve needs a copy of the book before commenting.

Flagellants are laughably bad. 12 points for standard human statline with flails and no armour (yes, that means worse stats than chaos marauders), and you have to kill d6 of them per turn before they can hurt anything.

Yeah, they're unbreakable, but that doesn't really matter when state troops and their detachments are clocking in with LD 10, Hold the Line, BSB support and possibly Stubborn/Steadfast as well. They are an incredibly easy target for magic and missile fire, easily baited, and even if they do make it into combat, they'll gradually kill themselves over time, so you can throw cheap units at them like hounds or slaves or goblins and watch the unit kill itself.

scarletsquig wrote:^ They're also toughness 4. I think Steve needs a copy of the book before commenting.

Demigryph Knights count as T3. The Knight's T3 trumps the mount's T4.

scarletsquig wrote:^ They're also toughness 4. I think Steve needs a copy of the book before commenting.

Flagellants are laughably bad. 12 points for standard human statline with flails and no armour (yes, that means worse stats than chaos marauders), and you have to kill d6 of them per turn before they can hurt anything.

Yeah, they're unbreakable, but that doesn't really matter when state troops and their detachments are clocking in with LD 10, Hold the Line, BSB support and possibly Stubborn/Steadfast as well. They are an incredibly easy target for magic and missile fire, easily baited, and even if they do make it into combat, they'll gradually kill themselves over time, so you can throw cheap units at them like hounds or slaves or goblins and watch the unit kill itself.

Troll much? Monstrous Cavalry, they use the same rules as cavalry (never use the tougness or wounds of the mount for stats) with the exception that with monstrous cavalry, you use the highest wound value between the rider and mount (in this case the 3 wound demigryph). I suggest you read the main rulebook (cavalry p82-83, monstrous cavalry p83).

Flaggelants are awesome because now you can run units of 50 (or whatever number you feel is necessary). Units of 50 which can be buffed by a double Hurricanum for +2 to Hit (no rules to say they do not stack). Their new martyr table is no worse than before since it's d6 S3 hits (4+ to wound) so on average you're losing just as much as the old d3 system. Lore of Life them back to full strength, Lore of Shadow the enemy tougness down or otherwise Lore of Light them for +1 Attack, your have battle wizards with access to all 8 lores.

Also finally my Hellblasters have some use given the new misfire table means there's no 1 in 2 chance of rolling on the old misfire table of doom.

There are ways around the empire leadership bubble: death sniping the captain/general/BSB, Doom and Darkness and Iceshard Blizard. Not to mention that 3d6 Hold the Line! is on break tests, not panic tests, can't benefit from Inspiring Presence or Hold the Line! when he's fleeing.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Why is fantasy getting all this attention when it has less players and is an inferior game system? It seems like they are releasing 2 fantasy books for every 40k book.

[Insert not sure if serious picture]

inferior system? We have a balanced system compared to whatever 40k wants to be. Just can it and wait for your edition change yea?

Brets?