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besbin wrote:Can we somehow took the knight off from the demigryph and just let them loose? with the current stat line of the demigryph, the rider is actually the weak point of the whole model. I would take that demigryph along for 4xpts any day.

Sadly, no.
I think GW may have derped a bit when they made the rules for him :/

I think they will be quite good. With 1+ armour they will grind down most infantry quite reliably. They are fast so they can get into combat quickly, and they are fairly durable so they can take the odd wound.

I can see myself taking 3 blocks of 4 with musician, maybe a champ.

the thing is the demigryph knight base is twice as big as a chaos knight and the point cost is around the same. So in face to face combat you will most likely lose horribly with their 2x Str 5 I 4 attack and 4+ ward save. BTW the demigryph doesn't have any ward save no?

besbin wrote:the thing is the demigryph knight base is twice as big as a chaos knight and the point cost is around the same. So in face to face combat you will most likely lose horribly with their 2x Str 5 I 4 attack and 4+ ward save. BTW the demigryph doesn't have any ward save no?

No...but they have 3 wounds and 1+ armor. And chaos knights don't have 4+ ward, unless they are tzeentch iirc.

That means that the demigryph knight will take 3+ saves, and will have to be wounded 3 times before being removed. As they are supposedly the same price as a chaos knight, I would say that's decent.

Oh, and the demigryph itself comes with S5 armor piercing, meaning the chaos knight takes 4+ saves, and can only be wounded once before being removed.

besbin wrote:the thing is the demigryph knight base is twice as big as a chaos knight and the point cost is around the same. So in face to face combat you will most likely lose horribly with their 2x Str 5 I 4 attack and 4+ ward save. BTW the demigryph doesn't have any ward save no?

The Demigryph also gives 3 WS4, S5 attacks.

So with 3 wounds, it's not a terrible buy at 60-ish points.

the Demigrpyh give 3 WS4 S5 atk + 1 atk at S5 WS4 by the knight with halberd. Per the rule of statistic you will cause average 0.444 wound after save per round of combat per model to the knight of chaos while the knight of chaos with 2 WS 5 S5 with I5 will strike first and cause 0.278 wound. If we count in the frontage advantage of the chaos knight and point value. It save to assume that we might win combat in the frist round but in the second round, after the stacking wound catch up and kill the models we are in serious trouble.

besbin wrote:the Demigrpyh give 3 WS4 S5 atk + 1 atk at S5 WS4 by the knight with halberd. Per the rule of statistic you will cause average 0.444 wound after save per round of combat per model to the knight of chaos while the knight of chaos with 2 WS 5 S5 with I5 will strike first and cause 0.278 wound. If we count in the frontage advantage of the chaos knight and point value. It save to assume that we might win combat in the frist round but in the second round, after the stacking wound catch up and kill the models we are in serious trouble.

...I have no idea what you just said.

Regardless, the Demigryphs will win due to pure attrition. In an equal fight between the two (let's say 5v5) the demigryphs will win (assuming all break tests are passed on both sides) simply because they have 3x the number of wounds than a chaos knight.

The Hurricanum and Luminark look suspiciously like they wandered in off of a Warmachine/Hordes battlefield into WFB. I'm not sure what I think of them.

To Besbin - also, the Demigryphs are on 50x75mm bases, so you wouldn't get more Chaos Knights in, assuming equal numbers.

For 3 demigryphs (with a standard and musician) I guesstimate I can get 4 blood knights, if the blood knights get the charge i'd wager you'd be looking at a lot of dead demigryphs, however i'd say if the gryphs got the charge, it'd be less nasty i'd guess about a draw.

They'll get a stomp, too, yes?

abbazabba1920 wrote:They'll get a stomp, too, yes?

against infantry but not against Cavalry IIRC.

If the Demigryphs got the charge, the mounts alone would kill 2 Blood Knights, and the 4 Str 6 attacks from the Knights thenselves have a good chance of killing one.

The Blood Knights would swing first, of course, but they on average will only cause 2 wounds, even with their Str 4 steeds.

So it's pretty close, but with the charge bonus and a banner, the Demigryphs win by 2, crumbling the remaining two knights.

I was talking about units equal in point value, not number of models. I doubt that the demigryph will win even if they fight 5v5 against the chaos knights. 5 demigryph = 50x5 = 250mm while as 5 chaos knight are only 5x25 = 125mm. So actually all 5 chaos knight will fight while only 3 demigryph can get in combat. So the knight will have 10 + 5 mount atk = 15 atk while the demigryph only got 3 x 4 = 12 atk.

Zoned wrote:If the Demigryphs got the charge, the mounts alone would kill 2 Blood Knights, and the 4 Str 6 attacks from the Knights thenselves have a good chance of killing one.

The Blood Knights would swing first, of course, but they on average will only cause 2 wounds, even with their Str 4 steeds.

So it's pretty close, but with the charge bonus and a banner, the Demigryphs win by 2, crumbling the remaining two knights.

If my maths is correct, if blood knights charge then they will drop 2 gryphs before they get to attack, then the horses will do nothing... correct? (i have done this in my head so i could be wrong)

Sorry besbin, I had a derp moment, thought that cav were on 50mm wide bases.

And in your example, you would get 4 Demigryph to fight, since you get corners (100mm fits into 125mm, plus corners.)

But anyway, let's assume equal points. 4 Demigryphs with 6 Chaos Knights (both have no command.)

The Chaos Knights swing first and should on average cause 2.22 wounds - not enough to kill a Demigryph.

The Demigryphs swing back and kill 2. If the Demigryphs charged, it should be another 1 dead due to the Str 6 lances. So if the Demigryphs charge, they should kill about 3 guys, and they will win combat by 2 points.

Without the charge, the Demigryphs should kill 2, and will probably lose combat by 1.

Note that it's all about whether or not the Chaos Knights can kill a Demigryph in the first round. The Mark of Khorne in this case is probably better than a 6th knight.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, it's no contest if the Blood Knights charge, the Demigryphs would lose horribly.

But the math is surprisingly not that bad - the Blood Knights should only do 4.44 wounds. If you think about it, 12 attacks, 8 hits, two thirds of that is saved by the armour, that's 2-3 blocked right there, plus you have to roll to wound...etc.

I was just contesting your statement:

"...however i'd say if the gryphs got the charge, it'd be less nasty i'd guess about a draw."

Just showing that if the Demigryphs charge, they should not lose a model and wipe the Blood Knights.

Alpharius wrote:Damn ph34r, you really only have one setting, don't you?

I was KIDDING. Note the presence of the Orkmoticon?

Yeah, you did a bad job. You could have been using it to be snarky or using it to imply your entire post was a joke. Don't get mad when other people don't understand the one true intention of your ": )"

You are also being rather rude and belligerent, I'd rather my Dakka Mod Team did not constantly insult me. I'm attacking your argument, you're attacking me and calling me a tight-ass. Not chill. I have no beef with you and I'd rather you just explain things civilly, I ain't got time for more Dakka Vacations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:No, no harm in talking I guess.
Its just that these sort of discussions always lead to the "OMG THEY NERFED MY ARMY!!!!! DAMN YOU GW" threads that always give me a headache.

These are my thoughts exactly. As a non-empire player the levels of buff upon buff upon buff that Empire is getting thrown to give to their (now one point more expensive, true) infantry is extremely scary, and having a large crowd of Empire players rushing to cry nerf without considering the buffs is weird. I played VC in 6th ed, and I payed 11 points for a skeletal spearmen. The only way to win with them was to use your buffs, and from that perspective this Empire book seems crazy.

ph34r wrote:As a non-empire player the levels of buff upon buff upon buff that Empire is getting thrown to give to their (now one point more expensive, true) infantry is extremely scary, and having a large crowd of Empire players rushing to cry nerf without considering the buffs is weird. I played VC in 6th ed, and I payed 11 points for a skeletal spearmen. The only way to win with them was to use your buffs, and from that perspective this Empire book seems crazy.

I don't know. The buffs look pretty tasty, but most(if not all) are in the form of Bound Spells. Your mileage may vary, but, in my experience, Bound spells are pretty darn easy to dispell.

It also seems weird to me that practically everything(at least every unit/warmachine, not to well informed on 7th Empire characters) got a points hike(and in some cases a nerf too, Mortar) and the new stuff seem to vary from so-so(Demigryphs/Hurricanium) to kind of lame(Super-laser thing, "Sure, I'll take a dispellable S8 Bolt Thrower instead of a Cannon for the same cost. What?").

I don't play Empire btw.

Doesnt the Magnifying Glass of Doom give a buff to all the troops around it? Might be useful to surround it with hordes of dudes.

It gives an automatic 6++ buff to all friendlies within 6" and an automatic dispel dice. The heavens version gives an automatic +1 to hit in close combat, also to units within 6" I believe. I believe that these buffs transfer from parent units to detachments, but I can't confirm either way as I am only saying this based on info in this thread.

I actually can confirm what rules are passed on to detachments(Indy store is selling the book a couple days early). It's only a few Special Rules(Like Hatered, Frenzy, etc.) from the main rulebook and an Empire specific rule. No spells or passive buffs.

++6 is kind of lame, and although the +1DD is nice, I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop and way overshadowed by a similar weapon. The buffs are ok, but it's too many points to for them.

Good to hear that information. That puts a bit of a hamper on the empire infantry uber-buff-block, at least the detachments do not get it unless they are within range as well.

200mm wide is a bit too fat for a cav footprint. 150 is very workabe. 250+ will cost too much in maneuverability.

3 demigrifs sounds like a great size. Won't break the bank in points, so 2 units of them will probably be a regular sight. Also point for point 3 of them is a pretty mean cav unit to charge into an infantry blocks flank.

Final note on demigrif v chaos knight debate. 5 chaos knights charge 3 demi=steam rolled. Its a more expensive unit squashing a less expensive unit. 3 demigrif flank charging 5 chaos knights=demigrif wins combat, has a solid chance to repeat the process on round 2. 3 of them is a mean unit for the price, and heavy cav can not allow them to get a flank charge.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:++6 is kind of lame

Same as a parry save, only you can use it against shooting and magic.

But it's really overshadowed by the 5++ you can get from warrior priests.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop

The main function is easy to stop, but the advantage Empire has in this book is lots of bound spells.

I plan on taking 2 warrior priests (mainly because I have 2 models), and each has a bound spell I can potentially get off with 1 die. That means my opponent has to spend at least one die if he wants to dispel each of my bound spells. If you take the planetarium and laser, that's two more bound spells.

With a L4 wizard lord (almost mandatory), your opponent will have to spend DD to either stop the wizard or stop the bound spells. He won't be able to afford to do both.

This isn't, really, much different from the previous (current?) book, but it makes it more of an essential tactic.

biccat wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop

The main function is easy to stop, but the advantage Empire has in this book is lots of bound spells.

I plan on taking 2 warrior priests (mainly because I have 2 models), and each has a bound spell I can potentially get off with 1 die. That means my opponent has to spend at least one die if he wants to dispel each of my bound spells. If you take the planetarium and laser, that's two more bound spells.

With a L4 wizard lord (almost mandatory), your opponent will have to spend DD to either stop the wizard or stop the bound spells. He won't be able to afford to do both.

This isn't, really, much different from the previous (current?) book, but it makes it more of an essential tactic.

One dicing the bounds means a 50% fail rate while you opponent's fail rate is 33% and a canny opponent will use his lvl2, not lvl4. The priests bounds only work in CC too, so you either won't be using all four bounds or be targeting less useful targets with the arcane machines since they can't be cast into CC.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:One dicing the bounds means a 50% fail rate while you opponent's fail rate is 33% and a canny opponent will use his lvl2, not lvl4.

Well, the priest spells are cast on a 3, so that helps. And a 1-2 means his wizard is done dispelling for the turn, which is nice. Not reliable, but nice when it happens.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:The priests bounds only work in CC too, so you either won't be using all four bounds or be targeting less useful targets with the arcane machines since they can't be cast into CC.

I try not to engage my opponent's entire army at once. So there should be something to shoot.

I see what you're saying, and I agree it's not ideal. It's becoming apparent that the Empire magic phase took a huge hit this edition. But I'm trying to make the best of the bad, and I think either AL + 2 WP or L4 + 2 WP, both with 2 magemobiles is the way to go, magically speaking.

On the chaos knight vs. demigryph discussion. CKs can have a character which the demigryph's are unable to so even though you're no longer looking at equal point values, the Lord alone will off most of the gryph unit. I usually see a hero or lord in a unit of CKs so to be fair that's what will happen in most games vs those two units.

The new shrines are cute but die to cannons like everything else that's a big target in this game.

Warrior priests, meet sniper maneaters.

I really love the War Alter. That is a buffing monster.

I do like the Hurricanium since it's buffs are much more useful(+1 to hit and another PD to power the bounds). It's bound is ok since the results are all decent enough, but each result is random.

I just don't like the Laser since a Cannon heavily overshadows it's bound spell and it's buffs are a little on the meh side.

The important thing is are they bound items that break or innate bound abilities. If it;s the latter than forcing the laser in turn 1-2 when there is less need for augments and hexes is pretty sweet. Might not be as devastating as a casket of souls, but still nice.

ph34r wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Damn ph34r, you really only have one setting, don't you?

I was KIDDING. Note the presence of the Orkmoticon?

Yeah, you did a bad job. You could have been using it to be snarky or using it to imply your entire post was a joke. Don't get mad when other people don't understand the one true intention of your ": )"

You are also being rather rude and belligerent, I'd rather my Dakka Mod Team did not constantly insult me. I'm attacking your argument, you're attacking me and calling me a tight-ass. Not chill. I have no beef with you and I'd rather you just explain things civilly, I ain't got time for more Dakka Vacations.

...

Tzeentchling9 wrote:
I don't know. The buffs look pretty tasty, but most(if not all) are in the form of Bound Spells. Your mileage may vary, but, in my experience, Bound spells are pretty darn easy to dispell.

It also seems weird to me that practically everything(at least every unit/warmachine, not to well informed on 7th Empire characters) got a points hike(and in some cases a nerf too, Mortar) and the new stuff seem to vary from so-so(Demigryphs/Hurricanium) to kind of lame(Super-laser thing, "Sure, I'll take a dispellable S8 Bolt Thrower instead of a Cannon for the same cost. What?").

Pretty much!

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

++6 is kind of lame, and although the +1DD is nice, I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop and way overshadowed by a similar weapon. The buffs are ok, but it's too many points to for them.

Yup!

ph34r wrote:Good to hear that information. That puts a bit of a hamper on the empire infantry uber-buff-block, at least the detachments do not get it unless they are within range as well.

...

biccat wrote:
But it's really overshadowed by the 5++ you can get from warrior priests.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't think the Laser is worth it's cost since it's main function is pretty easy to stop

The main function is easy to stop, but the advantage Empire has in this book is lots of bound spells.

I plan on taking 2 warrior priests (mainly because I have 2 models), and each has a bound spell I can potentially get off with 1 die. That means my opponent has to spend at least one die if he wants to dispel each of my bound spells. If you take the planetarium and laser, that's two more bound spells.

With a L4 wizard lord (almost mandatory), your opponent will have to spend DD to either stop the wizard or stop the bound spells. He won't be able to afford to do both.

This isn't, really, much different from the previous (current?) book, but it makes it more of an essential tactic.

Sounds about right - here come the Warrior Priests!