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Johnny-Crass wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

See, this is why previews are bad.

Because they save you money?

Because people fixate on whatever their favored unit getting nerfed slightly is, and disregard new units, new abilities, changed units, etc.

(it's totally possible that Empire is not uber tier now, but I think the natural tendency is to not factor in new positive changes)

ph34r wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

See, this is why previews are bad.

Because they save you money?

Because people fixate on whatever their favored unit getting nerfed slightly is, and disregard new units, new abilities, changed units, etc.

(it's totally possible that Empire is not uber tier now, but I think the natural tendency is to not factor in new positive changes)

I don't think they ever were 'Top Tier'.

You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

Johnny-Crass wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

See, this is why previews are bad.

Because they save you money?

I swear I think half the population that plays 40k/fantasy would quit if they actually took the time and closely examined the rules

Anyways I dont mind less people playing an army, means that the army is an underdog! People love underdogs!

I'm sore from the last time I played the empire.

Alpharius wrote:You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

And because you think nothing larger than a horse should be allowed to leave the opposing deployment zone.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Alpharius wrote:You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

And because you think nothing larger than a horse should be allowed to leave the opposing deployment zone.

I watched a 2k empire army with 100 handgunners 2 mortars a cannon and some sprinkled point filler demolish everything yesterday.....i think that the horse size quota is actually fairly generous, speaking of which, are handgunners changing? (in case ive missed it).

Sirius42 wrote:speaking of which, are handgunners changing? (in case ive missed it).

Point increase, but that's it.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, thanks to everyone for the rulebook rumors. I canceled a pre-order for the griffon and army book.

See, this is why previews are bad.

Because they save you money?

Exactly!

lord_blackfang wrote:

Alpharius wrote:You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

And because you think nothing larger than a horse should be allowed to leave the opposing deployment zone.

Now that made me laugh - thanks!

quick question, if it is allowed?

so theres no sign of the empire battalion on the UK site, not sure about any other countries, looked at wayland games site, and they're got a new cheaper (the standard price is £60, opposed to the old box's £70) battalion up for advanced order, no sign of this on workshops website, and of course no mention in white dwarf or any of the forums I've looked at, unless of course i've not been looking hard enough, so, do wayland know more than we do? or is this just some horrible mistake on their part =S

Alpharius wrote:

I don't think they ever were 'Top Tier'.

You don't play Empire to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

I think you're wrong. Empire (and Dwarves) were the reason why you saw everyone scoff at the new monsters. 75pt Mortars made Hordes cry. Fairly cheap Troops made for easy Horde/Steadfast units. Add a Warrior Priest and they actually fought decently in close combat. Access to every lore made the army versatile. Making dispel dice like Dwarves gave it a huge advantage in the magic phase. 1+ armour knights that were core. Awesome Pegasi heroes. Steam Tank that was near invincible (except to initiative tests.)

The only problem would be a lack of cheap chaff, but otherwise, the Empire were definitely a top tier army.

I stand corrected!

So...

You don't play a non-gunline Empire army to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

Alpharius wrote:I stand corrected!

So...

You don't play a non-gunline Empire army to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

You intentionally misrepresent the facts by stating that any empire army with mortars and/or cannons is a gunline. The army that he described is far from a gunline.

I actually now agree more with the cannon/mortar nerf. They just have no place in 8th edition as pseudo-mandatory options; they mess with the core balance of things. They hammer hordes and monsters too hard, hordes and monsters being units that GW is balancing their new army books around.

If anything you should be happy that the supposed "gunline" units are nerfed. Now your non-gunline empire army is in fact relatively more competitive. Does that change your mind? I expect it won't, but I believe you are being somewhat unreasonable.

ph34r wrote:I actually now agree more with the cannon/mortar nerf. They just have no place in 8th edition as pseudo-mandatory options; they mess with the core balance of things. They hammer hordes and monsters too hard, hordes and monsters being units that GW is balancing their new army books around.

This attitude really makes me fear for an 8th edition Dwarf book - artillery has as much, if not more, of a place in WHFB than ridiculous monsters we've never heard of before the last two years.

Dysartes wrote:

ph34r wrote:I actually now agree more with the cannon/mortar nerf. They just have no place in 8th edition as pseudo-mandatory options; they mess with the core balance of things. They hammer hordes and monsters too hard, hordes and monsters being units that GW is balancing their new army books around.

This attitude really makes me fear for an 8th edition Dwarf book - artillery has as much, if not more, of a place in WHFB than ridiculous monsters we've never heard of before the last two years.

I think that cannons will always have a place. 20 points more is not going to make or break a 2500 point list, not by a long shot. The maximum penalty the new book imposes upon your cannons now is what, 60 points? Is that REALLY that awful out of 2500? I'm sure dwarves will still be appropriately uber at cannons.

ph34r wrote:If anything you should be happy that the supposed "gunline" units are nerfed. Now your non-gunline empire army is in fact relatively more competitive.

My non-"gunline" Empire army is more competitive?

Is that because they made core troops more expensive? Because they took away easy flank charges from detachments (I know they changed other rules too, but I think the free flank charge was one of the reasons to take them)? Maybe it was by making Flagellant's a terrible army choice and cramming most of the useful selections into the special section.

The non-"gunline" Empire army is not more competitive. Mortars and cannons are what gave the Empire a way to deal with unbreakable hordes and monsters. Now we get...unbreakable hordes and monsters.

I will concede that mortars suck now.

But, cannons still seem well worthwhile to me.

There are always plenty of ways of taking out hordes from magic (you get all 8 lores, your wizards are now cheaper) to new monsters (hate on them if you want, but they're part of your army book and might be competitive), to buffing your own hordes with the new warrior priests which seems significant.

Not every army gets killer mortars. It sucks that you don't get them any more either, I feel you, but you have many other options.

How about instead of whining about the new army, we wait until the new is released and THEN start whining?

I recall alot of whining at news of the new Necron rules, and Necrons turned out to be a fairly powerful army.

Actually, I think the Necron book is pretty poor overall.

Can you build a few good lists with it? Yes. Are there many units that are crap and therefore all the good lists look the same? Yes. Compare that to Space Wolves or Grey Knights who are spoiled for choices.

I've seen some more stuff into the Empire book and I'm despairing less. And ph24r's points make me understand some of the nerf's better - they make Fantasy play as it is intended to in 8th.

+1pt for nearly all the State Troops still irks me, though. But Warrior Priests buff them even better now (for cheaper,) and the Celestial Hurricanum is apparently pretty cheap in points and yields a +1 to hit aura (supposedly) so it's not as bad as I thought.

The cavalry (all types) sound better and better so I think I might be building an all cav list led by Karl Franz to supplement my take all comers army.

ph34r wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I stand corrected!

So...

You don't play a non-gunline Empire army to win lots and lots (though it is certainly possible!), you play them because you love the models, theme, background, etc.!

You intentionally misrepresent the facts by stating that any empire army with mortars and/or cannons is a gunline. The army that he described is far from a gunline.

Damn ph34r, you really only have one setting, don't you?

I was KIDDING. Note the presence of the Orkmoticon?

You might want to take a deep breath and relax now and again.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:How about instead of whining about the new army, we wait until the new is released and THEN start whining?

I recall alot of whining at news of the new Necron rules, and Necrons turned out to be a fairly powerful army.

Yeah, that's pretty much all we're doing here - spitballing until the actual book hits.

No harm in just talking.

I thought?

No, no harm in talking I guess.
Its just that these sort of discussions always lead to the "OMG THEY NERFED MY ARMY!!!!! DAMN YOU GW" threads that always give me a headache.

To the above I'd say that I see about 3 builds out of Space Wolves consistantly and maybe 4 builds out of GK's consistantly. Considering 3 very different Necron army lists have won GT's and all diverge from significantly from "Web Lists" I don't see how you can view the Necrons as a poor book. Especially since it's designed for an edition that's not out yet.

Regarding Empire I'm gonna get the Army Book and pick up my Vamp one too. We'll see about models but right now due to where I live Fantasy is a read for enjoyment kind of thing because nobody around her plays much

Has anyone heard anything about demigriffin knights? I have heard they will effectively be only T3 and approximately 60 pts, which don't sound great

There stats are on the GW site. And they are awesome.

S5,T4, W3, A3, and armour piercing for the mount. The rider is an inner circle knight in stats. 1+ armour is the kicker. Also, the mount is I4 and WS4, meaning less death to Purple Suns (unlike most other Monstrous Cav) and actually hit realiably.

but the rider is T3 and I 3 so do you not use the riders T and I?

Sorry, you're right, the rider is T3, so that is the value you use for wounding.

In the case of I3, I only care for the purpose of initiative tests. And in those cases you use the highest value.

ah Cool, still at almost 60pts im not convinced

Aren't they monsterous mounts? I thought those follow different rules.

Cavalry: Mount's Wounds and Toughness are never used.
Monstrous Cavalry: All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with one exception — monstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristic the model has.

They use the T of the rider, which is kinda dumb, but whatevs. I guess they're assuming everyone's taking a Life wizard and assuming that, don't want your T getting too high.

Can we somehow took the knight off from the demigryph and just let them loose? with the current stat line of the demigryph, the rider is actually the weak point of the whole model. I would take that demigryph along for 4xpts any day.