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 orkcommander wrote:
So now I need the core rules, my codex, WD's, faqs, and who knows how many extra books each year that GW puts out to just play the game.

Yeah, but thats how it is since...Rogue Trader...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pray tell, what anti-flyer defense does Black Templars currently have outside of stuff that's available to everyone else (except Tyranids)?

But once Black Templar get into close combat with a flyer, they rock

 Kroothawk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pray tell, what anti-flyer defense does Black Templars currently have outside of stuff that's available to everyone else (except Tyranids)?

But once Black Templar get into close combat with a flyer, they rock

I think you are confusing BT with Angry Marines:

http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/4236217/Angry+Marines+are+Angry/

Now that is a Flakk Launcher

Have we heard anything about what FOC slot the stormraven goes in for BT and SM?

 Skriker wrote:
I am curious exactly how rules from the recent campaign book are "cool new rules"? How are they "new" if they already have been printed and released? What I don't understand from the beginning is given that all the chapters get their equipment from the mechanicus which only has access to a limited number of vehicle profiles to use from the days when they were actually designed new, why do they all have these different flyers? GKs and Blood Angels have one. Other marine forces have a 2nd. Dark Angels have 2 of their own. At least one of the Dark angels flyers makes sense a unique craft fitting their background. The whole "chapter X found the tech specs for this flyer/tank/weapon and despite being part of the same Imperium has told everyone else to piss off and won't share it" is getting old.

I don't mind adding flyers to the games. It adds another dimension to play and that works for me. What doesn't work for me is the typical GW method of completely changing the game dynamics and piling all the access on a few forces initially while others literally starve for access for years. Simplest solution would have been adding to each faq for the armies for 6th the ability to turn at least one of their readily available weapons into an AA weapon whether with flakk missiles for missile launchers or some other method. Would have been simple and easy to add to each faq off the bat, but GW doesn't do that. This book will come out and will probably do nothing to counter balance the lack of flyers and flyer defenses in other codecies either. I hope that is not the case, but judging from the rumors it is looking likely. :(

Gets boring when your army has to buy an imperial aegis defense line with quad cannon just to have some AA defense.

Skriker

I'm a little tired of people complaining that codices are different, they are suppose to be. If you don't like the one you're playing it's very simple play a different one or get some allies.

The imagery I have is the adeptus mechanicus finds or develops the technology and has an arms show every so often where the different chapters and forces of the imperium order up what suites them individually. Kind of like real life, our air force planes and navy planes are different . Everyone can't have everything there are economics and training involved. That's just my two cents.

And in case of imperium , just the distance being half a galaxy away may cause many chapters to not receive some new toys.

Unfortunately the "exception" that Chapters may have the occassional peice of old tech or rare design now seems to be the standard so that all Chapters will end up with their own custom armoury. This may be a good marketing tool (and hence likely to continue) but it does weaken the pivotal plot point of interdependance of the Astartes /Imperium/ Mechanicus IMO

Plus whole races that are shown repeatedly with large numbers of flyers (Eldar, Tau) are yet again sidelined for the latest Marine toy flyer.......

I play marines as well as other armies but the increasing production line of so many different (and IMO awful looking) Marine flyers is depressing................

 Mr Morden wrote:
Plus whole races that are shown repeatedly with large numbers of flyers (Eldar, Tau) are yet again sidelined for the latest Marine toy flyer.......

I play marines as well as other armies but the increasing production line of so many different (and IMO awful looking) Marine flyers is depressing................

Latest Marine toy flier? That has nothing to do with Death from the Skies, since it's only existing two fliers adressed here, and one of them given to two "new" Chapters, of which especially Templars truly need it.

There's of course the new DA flyer, but it only makes sense with their new Codex. Now, while there are older codices, at least DA was still quite old too and not exactly top notch, and thus also deserving of an update, even if Eldar, Tau and Templars certainly deserve it too.

Anyway, even with the new DA flyer there are in fact only 3 Marine flyers, which isn't even that many compared to just how many marine chapters and players there are. As for looks, yeah, Stormraven is quite lame, but for us Templars with this book it becomes kind of a must - it'd be cool to get a custom "fighter"-type flyer when we get out codex, we are a fleet chapter after. I actually quite like the Stormtalon's look even though it looks like it'd fall like a brick, and the DA flyer isn't bad either. But as always, looks are a matter of taste. I wouldn't touch Tau with a ten-foot pole, Eldar is bleh, DE have only some nice-looking things, Necron varies, Tyranids and Demons are mostly bleh, Orks are made of awesomesauce, Chaos Marines and normal Marines are nice and with nice vehicles - although regular non-elite marines and perhaps basic Terminators are admittedly a tad too plain (which is another reason why my tabardy Templars are such a good choice!).

Its probably me being old fashioned but I prefered that the Astartes just did not bother with fighter combat - they had hugely powerful dedicated gunships that blasted their way into and out of specific situations, or they used teleportation or they used Drop Pods. I think both the Storm Eagle and the Caestus looked and felt like they contine this theme nicely?

The new ones just don't do that for me in looks or abilities.

AA: LR Helios, Whirlwind Hyperios, Contemptor-Mortis, Hyperios. All make sense to me and provide their intergral air support without having to worry about creating yet more dedicated craft that require Astartes to crew them - that approx 1000 mariens keeps getting stretched.

I like Black Templars - I have a small force of my own - and likely get more as I enjoyed Helsreach so much. One of the many things I really liked in that novel was the Navy squadron that took such pride in having served with the BT before and being allowed to bear the Templar Cross. I am thinking about getting a Navy flyer painted up in that scheme especially

Looks are def a matter of taste

Didn't the DA get two new flyers? - so in 40K they have 3 or perhaps 4 and the Eldar and Tau have Zero - which makes no sense. What makes it silly is that this new book could (perhaps it still will - please god) have given a flyer to those races that don't have one and /or an AA option (especially for the poor Tryanids) at the same time as giving the new options to the Astartes. There are still Codex entries that have no model........ Dark Eldar bomber being an obvious example.

Again these new Marine flyers just have no sense of heritage or continuitiy to me at least - just a way of selling models to marine players and trying to patch some "flyer" holes in the rules (but not all) that they failed to do when the released 6th ed, the FAQs and then IA Aearonautica and did not make it totally official.

Yes, DA got "two" but it's still just one model kit. Just like how Orks have one kit but three flyers that come out of it, etc.

Other than that the units you list are FW ones. I mean, if we start to include FW then Tau and Eldar already have flyers too.

Mind you, I'd love to have Storm Eagle (as well as the WW Hyperios) in codices rather than in IA, but I don't think that's going to happen. It looks far better than a Stormraven, but unfortunately aside from the FW aversion a lot of people have it's just too damn expensive at £90. By comparison I just ordered a Stormraven for 46€ from Wayland.

 tvih wrote:
Yes, DA got "two" but it's still just one model kit. Just like how Orks have one kit but three flyers that come out of it, etc.

Other than that the units you list are FW ones. I mean, if we start to include FW then Tau and Eldar already have flyers too.

Mind you, I'd love to have Storm Eagle (as well as the WW Hyperios) in codices rather than in IA, but I don't think that's going to happen. It looks far better than a Stormraven, but unfortunately aside from the FW aversion a lot of people have it's just too damn expensive at £90. By comparison I just ordered a Stormraven for 46€ from Wayland.

I think the point he was making with those FW units was that they are AA units that fit with the fluff of how Marines operate. In the fluff they've always been a ground-based force. The only aircraft ever mentioned in BL books or "studio fluff" has been for the explicit purpose of getting boots and treads on the ground safely, until they started selling flyer kits. A rapid-insertion strike force, which is what the Marines are, shouldn't need or be able to maintain air support. Sure, in long protracted campaigns they'd have Navy support, but that's the exception, not the norm. Meanwhile, you have the Eldar, whose biggest advantage has always been their air and space assets, and the Tau, who are also known for air superiority, getting nothing from the main design studio. Sure, it's a good business decision, but it's still a little confusing as a gamer.

^This. GW is being silly, and us xenos players are somewhat befuddled by their decisions from a gamer's standpoint. From a business standpoint, it makes sense, but you really don't want a game that in the long run has only marines versus marines. After all, the Imperium isn't in total civil war (yet) according to the fluff. It doesn't look cool on the table, and won't attract little Timmy who wants the cool space bugs or the totally awesome fast elf people in space.

Well that much is true, Marines don't seem to use "planetary" fighters much in the fluff, and rather seem to rely on IG for that.

 tvih wrote:
Well that much is true, Marines don't seem to use "planetary" fighters much in the fluff, and rather seem to rely on IG for that.

That's what I see on the table top also...

 Red Viper wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Well that much is true, Marines don't seem to use "planetary" fighters much in the fluff, and rather seem to rely on IG for that.

That's what I see on the table top also...

Well, that's mostly because C:SM are the only marine codex to currently have fighters, and Stormtalon being that fighter totally pales in comparison to Vendettas. So no surprise there. I've used Stormtalon twice so far. I do have Vendettas but haven't fully assembled them, and as such not used them either. Though them being so cheesy a choice dims my will to use 'em as well

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Yes, DA got "two" but it's still just one model kit. Just like how Orks have one kit but three flyers that come out of it, etc.

Other than that the units you list are FW ones. I mean, if we start to include FW then Tau and Eldar already have flyers too.

Mind you, I'd love to have Storm Eagle (as well as the WW Hyperios) in codices rather than in IA, but I don't think that's going to happen. It looks far better than a Stormraven, but unfortunately aside from the FW aversion a lot of people have it's just too damn expensive at £90. By comparison I just ordered a Stormraven for 46€ from Wayland.

I think the point he was making with those FW units was that they are AA units that fit with the fluff of how Marines operate. In the fluff they've always been a ground-based force. The only aircraft ever mentioned in BL books or "studio fluff" has been for the explicit purpose of getting boots and treads on the ground safely, until they started selling flyer kits. A rapid-insertion strike force, which is what the Marines are, shouldn't need or be able to maintain air support. Sure, in long protracted campaigns they'd have Navy support, but that's the exception, not the norm. Meanwhile, you have the Eldar, whose biggest advantage has always been their air and space assets, and the Tau, who are also known for air superiority, getting nothing from the main design studio. Sure, it's a good business decision, but it's still a little confusing as a gamer.

Thank you that was exactly what I was trying to say

 orkcommander wrote:
I'm a little tired of people complaining that codices are different, they are suppose to be. If you don't like the one you're playing it's very simple play a different one or get some allies.

The imagery I have is the adeptus mechanicus finds or develops the technology and has an arms show every so often where the different chapters and forces of the imperium order up what suites them individually. Kind of like real life, our air force planes and navy planes are different . Everyone can't have everything there are economics and training involved. That's just my two cents.

Feel free to be tired about it. I don't even put space marines on the table these days, so really don't care. I just think it is silly because of the fluff. Luckily I am entiteld to my opinion and you are entiteld to yours as well. Unfortunately while we are both discussing based on fluff and the environment the real answer is more akin to GW wanting people to have to buy more armies to use all the cool stuff out there, or buy more allies now. With allies now they might sell more of those speciality vehicles since it is easier to buy an hq/1troop/1 slot for whichever vehicle you want than to buy another whole army. Kind of like those cool new monster summoning rules in WFB 8 so that they can sell more of those high priced monster kits that people generally didn't used to need too many of.

Skriker

These updated rules: Are they the same as the codex units + the FAQ update or will for instance the dark eldar flyers gains vector dancer rule?

 Niiai wrote:
These updated rules: Are they the same as the codex units + the FAQ update or will for instance the dark eldar flyers gains vector dancer rule?

Probably the former, but we'll know in a few days.

Should it not have been announced by now?

Given what I have seen thus far I can only hope that.

1: Add new flyers to armies that are in need of them, or access to other flyers to armies with just one.

2: update 5th ed flyers(Stormraven/Vendeta/Valkerie/Stormtallon,Night Scythe/Doom Scythe...ect) Maybe giving them some new Load out options.

3: Fix or explain some of the issues regarding Fighters Ace's from Crusade of Fire book.

4: Add some new Skyfire units to Armies that do not currently have them.

5: This is a patch to the game and not a "use it if you want to but, you don't have to" supplement.


Other than that, I look forward to this wave of flyers.

Please no to #2. Unless point costs are raised in certain specific cases there's no reason to "give them new load out options".

In regard to number 5 if it's a compulsory alterering of the rules then it should be available as a free FAQ on the GW website not a paid purchase.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Should it not have been announced by now?

No, as it is a silent mail order only release without any preorder period. Seems they themselves are not quite comfortable with this English-only product.

Romeras over on warseer wrote:
Can confirm guys, definitely going ahead, nothing new in it just a compilation of all the flyer rules into one handy supplement, supposed to be au $35 so for every one else about half that price lol. Storm ravens are definitely able to be taken for Space Marines and Black Templar, bu that's the only change.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
In regard to number 5 if it's a compulsory alterering of the rules then it should be available as a free FAQ on the GW website not a paid purchase.

Check this link - it will show you some examples of exactly what you are saying they should not do.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat790002a&rootCatGameStyle=books

@nolzur: I lol'd.

 nolzur wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
In regard to number 5 if it's a compulsory alterering of the rules then it should be available as a free FAQ on the GW website not a paid purchase.

Check this link - it will show you some examples of exactly what you are saying they should not do.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat790002a&rootCatGameStyle=books

Take five minutes to re-read bladerikers point five and my comment and then try and engage brain.

Bladeriker mentions a patch for the game.. If it is an all encompassing rules change for core mechanics then it should be available as an FAQ like how they changed the Look out Sir rule for 40k or when they errata'd Power Scroll for fantasy. In no way should whole game changes be a compulsory purchase between editions.

Again if the rules are a fundamental change to a codexes rules the it should be available as a free supplement like with the Blood Angels or Sisters Codex. If they want to implement a binding rules change to codex or army book and charge for it then they should release a new edition.

Creating charged for 0.5 editions of core rules or codexes/army books sets the perfect precedent for gouging the living daylights out of gamers.

The point made above coupled with the fact that it is english only makes me belive this will an optional supplement and not required for 6th edition play.

In all honesty it's very much like a lot of old faq's and updates in a bound paid for volume. As long as these are available for free, even if in a less convenient format then I see no problem in offering a bound compilation, some people will want and benefit from that. It will be interesting to see if the supposed update allowing storm ravens for c:sm will be updated in the digital codex.