Psychic Awakening N&R - FAQs p.183.

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**Eumerin**

Phoenix Lords are still eldar, but not in a physical or biological sense. There's no body in the armor.

**Hellebore**

BrianDavion wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:

All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.

Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.

Phoenix lords have retained the absorbed by their armour schtick though and as Karandras is not the original scorpion, it's pretty clear that absorption is a factor of time more than anything else.

I REALLY wish GW would give us a range of exarchs rather than crappy team leader or uber demigod.

IMO, the team leaders are basically new exarchs. Older veteran exarchs would be better with more exarch powers, while the shrine masters, leaders for the entire shrine (because I ignore the impracticality of a shrine equaling one squad that Thorpe has used) would be on their way to being phoenix lord level.

To use a marine analogy:

Team leader Exarch = Lieutenant
Elder Exarch = Captain
Shrine lord = chapter master
Phoenix Lord = Primarch (there are even less phoenix lords than there are primarchs, which should kick in the 'inverse law of ninjitsu... :p)

there are only 3 primarchs in the game and a half dozen pheonix lords, whom also are not restricted by their craft world unlike primarchs whom are restricted by their chapter tactics. Also Primarchs are warp infused super beings, Pheonix Lords for all their prowess are still ELDAR. there are physical limits on what they can do and all.

Phoenix lords are basically infinity circuits inside a small wraithlord, powered by the warp completely. They have no organs to damage, no brain to fatigue.

They Are a singular will powered by the souls of those who have sacrifices themselves to the armour.

**Elbows**

From the novels and fluff I've seen, the Exarch is still eventually absorbed into the suit. Essentially they adopt it as a normal Aspect Warrior through whatever machinations lead to them getting lost on the path. It's reasonable to expect they'd remain a normal physical Eldar for some time. ..only slowly being absorbed into suit. It doesn't seem to be like the Phoenix Lord suits which more or less suck the soul of the Eldar into them.

Think of a leper. Initially you'd be sickly and covered in boils, etc. The more infected you become, the more clothing, wraps, bandages you'd wear. Eventually you'd even don a mask or face shield to hide your features etc. That's how I see an Exarch. Eventually the helmet simply doesn't come off after a battle...

I do think (while we're on the topic), the Eldar need a cool stratagem where an Aspect Warrior Exarch can sacrifice themselves to bring back a slain Phoenix Lord (with D3 wounds or something)....obviously of its own Aspect. You could limit it to once per game, etc.

**Shadenuat**

One thing I don't remember lore about is what exactly happens to physical eldar body when they die? Do they get a funeral and get buried? Go into the recycling tanks Alpha Centauri style? Ejected into space?

**Cronch**

Eumerin wrote:
Phoenix Lords are still eldar, but not in a physical or biological sense. There's no body in the armor.

yes, but they're only an amalgam of eldar culture's finest warriors since time almost-immemorial...of course they can't be as strong as Emperor's finest creation, they're just eldar. Eldar are dumb, slow and deaf compared to Emperor, the certified brain genius that plunged humanity into death spiral as a species.

**An Actual Englishman**

Cronch wrote:
Eumerin wrote:
Phoenix Lords are still eldar, but not in a physical or biological sense. There's no body in the armor.

yes, but they're only an amalgam of eldar culture's finest warriors since time almost-immemorial...of course they can't be as strong as Emperor's finest creation, they're just eldar. Eldar are dumb, slow and deaf compared to Emperor, the certified brain genius that plunged humanity into death spiral as a species.

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace.

There's no point comparing the Primarchs and Phoenix Lords, or trying to make comparisons between an Eldar unit and a space marine one.

GW aren't even consistent with the respective power of these creations - if I'm reading an Eldar focused book an Exarch is incrsdibly powerful, a Phoenix Lord is a demigod and an Avatar of Khaine is a walking god. If I'm reading a marine book an Avatar of Khaine might become a plaything. The same thing happens in the codexes. Its impossible to draw comparisons because one day a tactical marine is taking on an entire army of Eldar while another day a singular Harlequin is enough to destroy a company. It all depends on what suits the story.

What are we going to see on Monday? A new Jain Zar preview? Rules preview instead?

**Shadenuat**

If/when we see Jain we'd see what place GW considers right for Aspects and their leaders. In my opinion a good place for PL is between Chapter Masters and the end of the pricing line models. With interesting rules and synergies over pure killing power. Like Asurmen for his price but with better rules and stat line. A 110 points Phoenix does look goddamn weird I admit. A 175 points one looks reasonable. But honestly at this point and all the suffer PL and Aspects went through I will take basically anything.

**Cronch**

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace

Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor

**BrianDavion**

Cronch wrote:

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace

Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor

and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human

A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman

**Not Online!!!**

BrianDavion wrote:
Cronch wrote:

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace

Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor

and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human

A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman

Or a catachan or a khornate Heretic.
You were saying?

**NinthMusketeer**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
GW aren't even consistent with the respective power of these creations - if I'm reading an Eldar focused book an Exarch is incrsdibly powerful, a Phoenix Lord is a demigod and an Avatar of Khaine is a walking god. If I'm reading a marine book an Avatar of Khaine might become a plaything. The same thing happens in the codexes. Its impossible to draw comparisons because one day a tactical marine is taking on an entire army of Eldar while another day a singular Harlequin is enough to destroy a company. It all depends on what suits the story.

And they say 40k isn't realistic.

Anyways, I really, really like the face on the helmetless banshee. Because it isn't a 'pretty' scream where the figure still looks handsome/beautiful/heroic, it's an 'ugly' scream that heavily distorts the face with emotion. It is hard to state how rare that is, and how rare it is for it to be done well.

**Dudeface**

Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Cronch wrote:

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace

Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor

and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human

A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman

Or a catachan or a khornate Heretic.
You were saying?

Catachan are noted for higher than normal muscle mass beyond that of an average human are they not? The strength on the charge for khorne stuff is to represent a more frenzied attack, lending reckless strength to the charge.

These are supposed to be representing human +1 circumstances.

**Justyn**

I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"

**An Actual Englishman**

BrianDavion wrote:
Cronch wrote:

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace

Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor

and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human

A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman

What you seem unable to grasp, Brian, is that almost every faction has their primarch.

I play Orks. Therefore do I believe my boy Ghazzy could take on any primarch and stomp him flat? You'd better believe it. For some Eldar players, they may believe the same thing of their Phoenix Lords.

Basically - in this insane, inconsistent and make believe setting that GW have created in 40k most factions believe they have a 'primarch level' character/thing that's the pinnacle of the faction because it's cool as feth. Players of none marine armies all know that their pinnacle creation would likely get rekt by a primarch if GW ever wrote a story around it, but that's more to do with GW hyper biased writing than any in game power metric.

Lest we forget there was an Ork, a Big Mek of all things, that almost killed big daddy empy himself. Legit had him in a death grip, would've straight up killed if not for interference.

**Not Online!!!**

Justyn wrote:
I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"

It will anyways just be a bunch of marines.

**Cronch**

BrianDavion wrote:
Cronch wrote:

It's not like the Eldar ever plunged themselves into a death spiral is it? They certainly never fell from grace

Yes, but they're just dumb eldar, not Emperor

and not alchemicial creations blending the warp with flesh etc. Understand, the primarchs are not human

A HUMAN stat line is S3 T3 etc, any 4s on your statline is superhuman

And Phoenix lords are not eldar either, they're essentially self-propelled magical suits imbued with souls and god's powers. Piloted by souls of finest warriors ever birthed by a race renowned for it's skills and dedication/obsession with it's chosen path. But marine fans would feel insecure if marines weren't best at everything in lore, so I get it. It's even reflected in BL. For every book that has a phoenix lord or avatar do something cool, there's five where squaddie Brooding McGrumpyface of Emperor's Dirty Laundry chapter murders six avatars like they're made out of candyfloss. Let's be honest, the game at this point in time is aimed solely at keeping marine fans happy and their superhuman self-inserts undefeated. Expect nothing else in the upcoming campaign.

**BrianDavion**

yeah I know all the fluff describes eldar not being primarch level, how about that?

**Fayric**

Everybody knows Azur-man is the Guilliman of the elves.

Funny though how the dire avengers use the sybolism of actual mythological Horus, the original dire avenger.

**xttz**

Justyn wrote:
I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"

Sure is weird how they're not showing the next year's worth of releases all at once, huh? Almost like they're trying to build up interest gradually or something...

**the_scotsman**

Justyn wrote:
I feel like GW is mirroring Trump with this campaign. "Its going to be big, UGE, biggest campaign yet" ..... again and again, one model preview, no information. "UGE, listen to me, I'm telling you UGE!!!!"

*David Attenborough Voice*

Here, we see the wild internet poster. A playful, innocent creature, frolicking in its youth by a seemingly threat free meadow, making a simple joking comment post on a thread.

However, the ominous bassoons in the background tell you, dear viewer, that if you don't want to see this little creature's blood and guts as it's snarfed down by some hideous predator, it's probably a good time to look away.

**Iracundus**

Fayric wrote:
Everybody knows Azur-man is the Guilliman of the elves.

Funny though how the dire avengers use the sybolism of actual mythological Horus, the original dire avenger.

??

Ulthwe uses the actual Eye of Horus wadjet symbol, not the Dire Avengers.

**Red Corsair**

This hole thread has turned into "my dad is stronger then your dad" arguments lmao. Trying to convince anyone that the faction they love is somehow beneath the one you love is not productive. It's also not possible.

It's not even a worthwhile thought exercise since GW don't have established rules in their own universe that they don't regularly contradict, they just write whatever sounds cool and keeps everyone happy.

The fluff is marketing to sell each brand of models to it's target audience. Only in this case GW owns every brand, so it's kind of hilarious. It's like that car dealer telling a Ford guy Fords are better then Chevy's and ten minutes later telling the reverse to a Chevy guy in order to make the customers all happy.

Red Corsair wrote:
This hole thread has turned into "my dad is stronger then your dad" arguments lmao. Trying to convince anyone that the faction they love is somehow beneath the one you love is not productive. It's also not possible.

It's not even a worthwhile thought exercise since GW don't have established rules in their own universe that they don't regularly contradict, they just write whatever sounds cool and keeps everyone happy.

The fluff is marketing to sell each brand of models to it's target audience. Only in this case GW owns every brand, so it's kind of hilarious. It's like that car dealer telling a Ford guy Fords are better then Chevy's and ten minutes later telling the reverse to a Chevy guy in order to make the customers all happy.

To me, it's interesting to watch people "argue" things that, as far as I can tell, don't exist as matters of fact, only as matter of interpretation, on the basis of "seeming" facts.

There really is not a "fact" of GW fluff. Because even the fact of the matter on what-has-been-written, is only a "fact" in so far as it is the selected interpretation of whoever happened to write that. So, there is no necessity here; tomorrow, if someone at GW decided to write some fluff that Eldar are actually only 1 year old, suddenly this is a seeming fact. Since there is no Eldar as a fact of the matter which to compare with, since any past fluff is as arbitrary as the "new" fluff, there is no way to "prove" anything one way or the other.

It really is just a case of "this is the interpretation I personally like." There isn't anything wrong with that, but it means there is no "correct" or "incorrect" Eldar. There could be what someone might consider "logically consistent" Eldar, or "thematically consistent" Eldar, but again, these will just be arbitrary, personal opinions, not matters of fact.

OK, I doubt anyone is still reading, or that this makes sense, so I'll stop nonsensically rambling now,

**Nurglitch**

The theology of 40k is what keeps us coming back to it.

**H.B.M.C.**

Yeah but this whole thread has been very nasty.

Nurglitch wrote:
The theology of 40k is what keeps us coming back to it.

I'm not against it, I just (maybe mistakenly) find myself apt to pointing out what it is we all seem to "really" be doing. I think that conceding those points lets us get to a place of actual productive discourse, but again, maybe I am misguided.

Perhaps, aside a notion of 40k theology, we need more 40k teleology?

**Red Corsair**

I think people just need to take a step back and realize it's OK for everyone to be the hero based on perspective. If you are a die hard space marine player then it's fine to be convinced your primarch is the BAMF. If you play Eldar it's OK to feel the same for a Phoenix lord. The list goes on, it's totally not productive to try to "win" an argument on who is the best of those though IMHO. That's why it's designed this way, you get to decide with your games

IDK maybe it comes with playing for so long, but there seem to be other folks in here that have played just as long as me (early 2nd) but over those years I have been lucky enough to amass quite the collection of armies, so when you read the fluff from one army sitting next to another on the shelf and both lay claim to being to ultimate authority and inhereitor to the galaxy and the number 1 BAMF you kind of have to chuckle and realize each source is pretty biased toward cheer leading you on. And that's OK!

Legitimize your fluffs claims through gaming on the table.

**Dudeface**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but this whole thread has been very nasty.

Maybe this is why xenos players dont get nice things?

Dudeface wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but this whole thread has been very nasty.

Maybe this is why xenos players dont get nice things?

"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

**Azreal13**

Cronch wrote:

Let's be honest, the game at this point in time is aimed solely at keeping marine fans happy and their superhuman self-inserts undefeated

Whereas the fluff now seems aimed at people who find Saturday morning cartoons too wordy and complicated.