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GoatboyBeta wrote:
Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.

From 2d edition Codex description of Exarches.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.

That's my memory as well.

2nd ed codex imperialis and codex Eldar.

That's the kind of lore idea that sounds cool, but makes you ask so many awkward questions the moment you stop to think about it.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
That's the kind of lore idea that sounds cool, but makes you ask so many awkward questions the moment you stop to think about it.

Phoenix lords are still described this way.

And it's no more awkward than farseers turning to crystal, which is still true.

Hellebore wrote:
Phoenix lords are still described this way.

Not exactly.

Also here's a comparison - the only Exarch lore from current Codex:

EXARCHS

In theory, an Asuryani is capable of compartmentalising and
controlling their warrior selves, casting aside their blood-
hungry persona just as they would their wargear. When as
Aspect Warrior loses this ability to disassociate from their
killer-self, they become an Exarch. High priests of Khaine,
Exarchs are the keepers of the Bloody-Handed God’s shrines
and the teachers of his creed, and their abilities are far more
developed than even the finely-honed Aspect Warriors whom
they lead to battle. Theirlives are utterly dedicated to their
Aspect’s particular way of war, and the teaching, training and
ceremony that go with it.

Upon initiation, an Exarch will don an elaborate version of
Aspect Warrior armour, studded with waystones that contain
the souls of their shrine’s previous Exarchs. Thewearer will
assume the sacred name associated with the armour, and his
own spirit mingles with those of the departed. So empowered,
the Exarch can draw upon the skill, wisdom and emotions
of their predecessors, and any remaining sense of themselves
as a distinct being is lost amidst the susurrus of the dead. It
is a process that can never be reversed, and all who undergo
it spend the rest of their days held in both fear and awe by
their kin.

Still p grimdork.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.

That's my memory as well.

Indeed, that's the current lore. An apparently, the Exarch process CAN actually be reverted, as with the Visarch, who is a former Exarch (however, you could attribute this to bad writing, as it directly contradicts other lore).

Hellebore wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Where does this thing about Exarch's being empty suits come from? My understanding was that even with the Phoenix lords there is a physical Eldar inside the suit. It was the wearers personality that was overwritten and absorbed by the suits spirit stones not there body.

That's my memory as well.

2nd ed codex imperialis and codex Eldar.

That, and this:

To be fair the Visarch is something totally new

so whether you prefer the old version of an exarch vanishing inside their armour, or the new version of their body still existing, but never taking the armour off

a new warp God or God in Waiting is going to be able to reverse things and pull the exarch out of the warrior dream, providing a new body if necessary (after all nothing is sweeter to a god than pinching an important follower from a rival)

While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:




Similar sketches exist for the other Aspects, all dating from around the same time. These sketches can be found in The Eldar Collection which is basically Jes Goodwin's compiled sketches down the years.

One possible reconciliation of the two is that an Exarch is still flesh initially but over time becomes absorbed into the armor. So all the helmetless ones are just ones that have yet to be absorbed.

All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.

Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.

It might also be a bit like the Jedi from Starwars - that the body remains until right at the point of death and then, for those with the most powerful bond, it vanishes into the suit in those very last moments. Not all will achieve this level of bonding, but some will; their form absorbed into the powerful suit. That would account for how the suit can move and operate the whole time; and also accounts for the variation in absorption.

It's also worth to remember Ynnari (specifically Yvraine in the crucibael ) are capable to recall the memories and knowledge of previous absorbed souls.

So it may be the way GW has chosen to develop the Ynnari version of aspects as individuals that use the memories of previous Eldar who walked the Path as Banshees.

P.S: either way i'm anxious to know what else they'll show this monday i hope some more insights on the campaign than just the Banshee models and rules.

Iracundus wrote:
While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:

All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.

Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.

Phoenix lords have retained the absorbed by their armour schtick though and as Karandras is not the original scorpion, it's pretty clear that absorption is a factor of time more than anything else.

I REALLY wish GW would give us a range of exarchs rather than crappy team leader or uber demigod.

IMO, the team leaders are basically new exarchs. Older veteran exarchs would be better with more exarch powers, while the shrine masters, leaders for the entire shrine (because I ignore the impracticality of a shrine equaling one squad that Thorpe has used) would be on their way to being phoenix lord level.

To use a marine analogy:

Team leader Exarch = Lieutenant
Elder Exarch = Captain
Shrine lord = chapter master
Phoenix Lord = Primarch (there are even less phoenix lords than there are primarchs, which should kick in the 'inverse law of ninjitsu... :p)

Considering that the helmetless Exarch is specifically called out as being related to Ynnead, maybe that's the answer.

After all, Yvraine was able to undo the Rubric of Ahriman. Maybe she does something similar with the exarch, and "frees" them from their armor? Craftworlders find this offensive and that's why they're exarchs aren't helmetless?

GaroRobe wrote:
Considering that the helmetless Exarch is specifically called out as being related to Ynnead, maybe that's the answer.

After all, Yvraine was able to undo the Rubric of Ahriman. Maybe she does something similar with the exarch, and "frees" them from their armor? Craftworlders find this offensive and that's why they're exarchs aren't helmetless?

The Dire Avenger Exarch has had the helmetless option for years now, again long before the Ynnari were introduced.

Hmm. Pretty sure I have a helmetless exarch already. A dire avenger from the old hybrid kit- guardian sprue with metal DA bits. One head option was a bare head with the DA hair crest.

Even newest Exarch would be a being of incredible experience and skill, not someone on a level of a marine sargeant...but then again, lorewise eldar guardian has the experience to match a veteran space marine, and aspect warriors should be probably on par with chapter masters.
So much for theory, we all know how it looks in the game.

The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

changemod wrote:
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

Nope. The soulstone of the individual is removed from their exarch armor (in effect, severing them from the collective of souls whirling about in the thing) before they go on their playdate with the Avatar. The extant Exarch personality and memories remain in the armor.

changemod wrote:
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

This is where the background is inconsistent because of different authors with differing visions writing different things.

2nd edition Codex says it is an Aspect Warrior, not an Exarch, that is sacrificed. Gav Thorpe, in his works, writes it as an Exarch.

I personally prefer Aspect Warrior because it allows for the Eldar to participate in regular battles without basically destroying all their Exarchs and shrines. Secondly, the entire Avatar awakening ceremony is a symbolic re-enactment of the final battle of Eldanesh against Khaine, wielding Anaris. Eldanesh had refused Khaine's offer of supremacy in return for swearing the Eldar race to Khaine. Therefore it is symbolically more appropriate IMO to have an Aspect Warrior, one not yet given over permanently to Khaine, to be the sacrifice rather than the Exarchs, who are trapped on the Path of the Warrior and thus already Khaine's.

I never read the 2nd ed codex to imply that the body melded or was absorbed into the armor.
Rather, the term "spirit stone" implies a body/spirit dualism.
It records the spirit. The body is left out of the equation...
because it dies, perhaps is honored, perhaps is never recovered,
in which case a new suit of armor is necessary.
Or, its recovery (cue scenario).

changemod wrote:
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

Avatar stays around more than a battle iirc. More like campaing.

IIRC, in the scorpion novel, the protagonist's original exarch doesn't participate in the final battle of the novel as he's getting a bit too old. That would suggest that there are still working biological parts in that armor. But there's definite confirmation that there's no body in a Phoenix Lord's armor.

Personally, I've always held the opinion that an Exarch's body doesn't fade so long as it's still alive. But if the body dies in a fashion that doesn't wreck the armor (such as natural causes), then the physical body will wither away while the exarch's consciousness continues to animate the armor.

Iracundus wrote:
Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place

You mean he collaborated with Priestley and Chambers.

Iracundus wrote:

changemod wrote:
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

This is where the background is inconsistent because of different authors with differing visions writing different things.

2nd edition Codex says it is an Aspect Warrior, not an Exarch, that is sacrificed. Gav Thorpe, in his works, writes it as an Exarch.

I personally prefer Aspect Warrior because it allows for the Eldar to participate in regular battles without basically destroying all their Exarchs and shrines. Secondly, the entire Avatar awakening ceremony is a symbolic re-enactment of the final battle of Eldanesh against Khaine, wielding Anaris. Eldanesh had refused Khaine's offer of supremacy in return for swearing the Eldar race to Khaine. Therefore it is symbolically more appropriate IMO to have an Aspect Warrior, one not yet given over permanently to Khaine, to be the sacrifice rather than the Exarchs, who are trapped on the Path of the Warrior and thus already Khaine's.

Except the 2nd Ed fluff was over written in 3rd through the codexes when they further explored the ritual and the Court of the Young King and clarified that it is, indeed, an Exarch chosen.

Yes, but the second ed fluff is the best. Later retcons are heresy that should be ignored.

tneva82 wrote:

changemod wrote:
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

Avatar stays around more than a battle iirc. More like campaing.

Be interesting to see an Avatar with some down time between battles. Does it stand in the corner, glowing and seething? Does it keep itself busy by curling up with a good book? Play tennis?

Avatars don't have down time. When a battle is over, they go off looking for another battle, and the rest of the army has to try to keep up with them. That's how Eldar end up losing all the time even though they can see the future. Once the avatar comes out they just have to fight until the avatar gets destroyed.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, but the second ed fluff is the best. Later retcons are heresy that should be ignored.

This ^^

Hellebore wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
While the 2nd edition background had Exarchs being absorbed and being animated suits of armor like Phoenix Lords, this has been modified since at least 2004 by Jes Goodwin, the one that created the Eldar in the first place:

All 2004-2005 helmetless sketches are of Exarchs, not average Aspect Warriors. One sketch of the Banshee Exarch has notes from Jes saying force fields protect the head, and also labeling the pods on either side of the head as the psychosonic amplifiers that project the Banshee scream. Other sketches for the Scorpion and Dark Repear Exarch (both of which can be easily Googled) show their specialized headgear are still present even in the helmetless Exarch versions. Exarchs wear their psychological war mask all the time, so to them it does not matter any more whether they wear a physical helmet or not. For normal non-trapped Eldar, the donning of their armor and the helmet is a ritual and the helmet has ritual significance, symbolizing the wearing of their war mask. We don't see them helmetless. Possibly also because a force field setup might be too much effort to make for a non-Exarch.

Personally I prefer Exarchs to have helmets, but the possibility of helmetless Exarchs has existed since Jes sketched them in 2004, long before the Ynnari were introduced. There is nothing specifically I can see in the new Banshee Exarch helmetless head that specifically denotes Ynnari. It could just as easily represent a Craftworlder non-Ynnari Exarch.

Phoenix lords have retained the absorbed by their armour schtick though and as Karandras is not the original scorpion, it's pretty clear that absorption is a factor of time more than anything else.

I REALLY wish GW would give us a range of exarchs rather than crappy team leader or uber demigod.

IMO, the team leaders are basically new exarchs. Older veteran exarchs would be better with more exarch powers, while the shrine masters, leaders for the entire shrine (because I ignore the impracticality of a shrine equaling one squad that Thorpe has used) would be on their way to being phoenix lord level.

To use a marine analogy:

Team leader Exarch = Lieutenant
Elder Exarch = Captain
Shrine lord = chapter master
Phoenix Lord = Primarch (there are even less phoenix lords than there are primarchs, which should kick in the 'inverse law of ninjitsu... :p)

there are only 3 primarchs in the game and a half dozen pheonix lords, whom also are not restricted by their craft world unlike primarchs whom are restricted by their chapter tactics. Also Primarchs are warp infused super beings, Pheonix Lords for all their prowess are still ELDAR. there are physical limits on what they can do and all.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

changemod wrote:
The one that confuses me is the sacrifice of an exarch to awaken the Avatar. Do they take a newly lost to the path of the warrior Eldar, or do they toss away millennia of experience and multiple aggregate souls... for one battle’s worth of activity?

This is where the background is inconsistent because of different authors with differing visions writing different things.

2nd edition Codex says it is an Aspect Warrior, not an Exarch, that is sacrificed. Gav Thorpe, in his works, writes it as an Exarch.

I personally prefer Aspect Warrior because it allows for the Eldar to participate in regular battles without basically destroying all their Exarchs and shrines. Secondly, the entire Avatar awakening ceremony is a symbolic re-enactment of the final battle of Eldanesh against Khaine, wielding Anaris. Eldanesh had refused Khaine's offer of supremacy in return for swearing the Eldar race to Khaine. Therefore it is symbolically more appropriate IMO to have an Aspect Warrior, one not yet given over permanently to Khaine, to be the sacrifice rather than the Exarchs, who are trapped on the Path of the Warrior and thus already Khaine's.

Except the 2nd Ed fluff was over written in 3rd through the codexes when they further explored the ritual and the Court of the Young King and clarified that it is, indeed, an Exarch chosen.

And in the last Codex it is back to Aspect Warrior