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Kill team is entirely the gateway drug for 40K. That fact has failed to detract from the enjoyment I get playing 100 point games. I have 6 kill teams based on the models I have kicking around in my miniature chest. GW isn’t leading me down the path of 40K, it’s reenergizing my collection. As long as I can get a game in around an hour or so, GW can add all the options they want. Maybe this week we will use Commanders, maybe next week we will use expansion x, and next week try and and z combined. I hope they add all sorts of neat options. The basic mechanics of the game means it will never be just sub 500 40K. At its core, it’s much more clever than that.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy Kill Team for Kill Team...but nobody should be complaining about it adding more and more stuff (to help bridge that gap for future consumers) etc.

I know plenty of people who only play Kill Team.

I just enjoy seeing people blown away by simple mechanics in Kill Team and Necromunda which have been around in hundreds of other games for decades. I feel like saying "welcome to the rest of wargaming"

Seems to me that with the prices being so out of wack with the regular prices of these particular models, GW might be future proofing the Commanders concept to make way for future Commander models ($35 makes more sense for a new model than an old one).

I'd wager we are just seeing the beginning of what Commanders brings to the Kill Team game system. We probably haven't even seen KT's final form yet, and we're trying to figure it out what the puzzle looks like without having all the pieces.

zamerion wrote:
From Bols
*Images cropped for space*

Hmm... I don't think I would take Stealth and I likely would not upgrade a Psyker beyond level 1. The right half of the tree isn't going to do anything against a lot of teams (and my understanding is that you have to commit to your Commander's build when you build your command roster) while the Psybolt shenanigans on the left side seems highly situational. Maybe if you bought up all the way to level 4 so you can have both the 24" range and the unrestricted targeting but at that point an Exalted Sorcerer would be essentially your entire kill team. Maybe a decent idea for a Warlock.

CassianSol wrote:

Well... this kind of content is a turn off. It feels like it doesn't belong.

Then don't buy the highly priced, optional add on content! Voila!

I'm sorry, should I not discuss Kill Team news in a Kill Team news thread on a discussion forum?

 Albertorius wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

Well... this kind of content is a turn off. It feels like it doesn't belong.

Then don't buy the highly priced, optional add on content! Voila!

I'm sorry, should I not discuss Kill Team news in a Kill Team news thread on a discussion forum?

\

I wouldn't call what you said a discussion. Personally I think there is enough negativity on the forum that saying "not interested" adds nothing of value. If you elaborated further, sure.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Kill Team is not just about your local meta, it encompasses all types of play, Im glad this is out and for narrative gamers like ne it adds some nice ready made easy to use extra options for different games/forces. If you are that concerned about commanders then why not just run a standard Kill team only tournament yourself? Im sure a lot of other gamers would be willing to participate in that

I think worry is the commander will become de facto standard so getting to play without it is going to be hard. Like matched play is de facto standard of 40k and good luck getting game elsewhere and even more specifically tournament rules are de facto standard. Technically 3 det limit and 3 datasheets for 2k is SUGGESTION for ORGANIZED play. In practice those are so hard coded rules you need to pre-arrange to NOT follow it.

In similar vein possibility is KT becomes de facto commanders in. At that point doesn't matter if you keep saying "it's optional". Sure it's optional but if that means no game for you not much it helps.

Easily more than half the missions - all the missions that come with the core rule book and all of the the starting boxes and kill zones - aren't even playable with commanders. And even the missions that come with the commanders books don't have commanders on both sides in all missions.

So I very much doubt it'll become the de facto mode of play anytime soon.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Kill Team is not just about your local meta, it encompasses all types of play, Im glad this is out and for narrative gamers like ne it adds some nice ready made easy to use extra options for different games/forces. If you are that concerned about commanders then why not just run a standard Kill team only tournament yourself? Im sure a lot of other gamers would be willing to participate in that

I think worry is the commander will become de facto standard so getting to play without it is going to be hard. Like matched play is de facto standard of 40k and good luck getting game elsewhere and even more specifically tournament rules are de facto standard. Technically 3 det limit and 3 datasheets for 2k is SUGGESTION for ORGANIZED play. In practice those are so hard coded rules you need to pre-arrange to NOT follow it.

In similar vein possibility is KT becomes de facto commanders in. At that point doesn't matter if you keep saying "it's optional". Sure it's optional but if that means no game for you not much it helps.

Mot really, BOTH players have to agree to use commanders, or you don't. Some tournament MAY or MAY NOT use commander rules, potentially for some, none or all games in the tournament, campaign events likewise. Pick up and play games both players have to agree AND they both need to have commanders. I feel the norm will be people brining standard Kill Teams and potentially having Commanders along for the ride in case fellow gamers also have them id they want to play using them, otherwise theyll jusr play standard

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Mot really, BOTH players have to agree to use commanders, or you don't. Some tournament MAY or MAY NOT use commander rules, potentially for some, none or all games in the tournament, campaign events likewise. Pick up and play games both players have to agree AND they both need to have commanders. I feel the norm will be people brining standard Kill Teams and potentially having Commanders along for the ride in case fellow gamers also have them id they want to play using them, otherwise theyll jusr play standard

Technically speaking matched play suggestions in 40k are "both players have to agree". But as I just said that doesn't help the player who doesn't want to use them as he won't be able to play any game then.

Sure you could go for "I don't agree with commanders" but if you getting a game depends on you agreeing to use commanders what good that does?

My only real opportunity to play Kill Team is the monthly tournament my local game store hosts. Whether or not I use Commanders entirely depends on if it's adopted into their ruleset. Fortunately I don't particularly care either way and will adapt as needed but I can imagine someone with a stronger opinion in a similar situation being more unhappy about it.

I absolutely do not understand the hate towards commanders. The lack of commanders and elites is one of the main things that held me back from kill team initially.

Creating your own character is one of the best parts of the hobby.

Wasn’t the whole point of KT to be an advanced version of 40k on a small scale?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I absolutely do not understand the hate towards commanders. The lack of commanders and elites is one of the main things that held me back from kill team initially.

Creating your own character is one of the best parts of the hobby.

Wasn’t the whole point of KT to be an advanced version of 40k on a small scale?

In concept, I have no problem with Commanders. As game size goes up, the sergeant-level leaders get replaced with basic HQ's, that's fine.

The problem I have with the execution GW pulled out here was the poor integration of commanders in your core game (they don't level up with the rest of your team, they have to be in their own self-contained missions, they hoover up your turn's allowance of Tactics extremely fast) and the scale of the commanders implemented. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have cried foul if the first thing they implemented as an expansion for Kill Team was "Heavy Tanks for each faction! Now your kill team can include the mighty Leman Russ Battletank!" but for some reason an HQ who costs the same as a Leman Russ nobody minds.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I absolutely do not understand the hate towards commanders. The lack of commanders and elites is one of the main things that held me back from kill team initially.

Creating your own character is one of the best parts of the hobby.

Wasn’t the whole point of KT to be an advanced version of 40k on a small scale?

Because Kill Team is exactly the enviroment to make the regular soldiers the "Characters". Characters are allready relevant in normal 40k. All my DA captains have "names", and are customized and converted. I don't do the same with all my marines, but I have done it with my marines in Kill Team because the team is much smaller. I don't need for GW to tell me one model is a "character" to customize it and personalize it.

I understand what you’re getting at, admittedly I haven’t bought the book yet so the rules could suck.

These are generally low ranking heroes though, are they not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because Kill Team is exactly the enviroment to make the regular soldiers the "Characters". Characters are allready relevant in normal 40k. All my DA captains have "names", and are customized and converted. I don't do the same with all my marines, but I have done it with my marines in Kill Team because the team is much smaller. I don't need for GW to tell me one model is a "character" to customize it and personalize it.

For me, If they wanted to make the sergeant the hero, they should’ve given them 2 or 3 wounds. The game is still a unit level game. Adding one or 2 more models to your army doesn’t make it 40k. I absolutely need special character models, rules etc. It added another layer of depth for me. The initial rules for kill team minus characters and elites felt like it was really lacking what I personally required to make it immersive. I would like to see it get bigger personally. I would love to see 3 squads and an hq as a standard game.

Not sure if it's been covered:

Necron Overlord - £17 for the blister, paying £3 for the cards/tokens
Commissar - £12.50 for the blister, paying £7.50 for the cards/tokens
FireBlade - £12 for the blister, paying £8 for the cards/tokens
Deathwatch Commander - £15 for the blister, paying £5 for the cards/tokens
Ork Warlord - *
Tech Priest Dominus - £22 for the blister, saving £2, and getting the cards/tokens free
Librarian - £22.50 for the blister, saving £2.50 and getting the cards/tokens free
Succubus - £16 for the blister, paying £4 for the cards/tokens

*The Ork HQ is the only wierd one, in that if you really wanted that figure seperate, you'd have to pay the £32.50 to get the model, so this is the cheapest way to get it without a bits seller.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I understand what you’re getting at, admittedly I haven’t bought the book yet so the rules could suck.

These are generally low ranking heroes though, are they not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because Kill Team is exactly the enviroment to make the regular soldiers the "Characters". Characters are allready relevant in normal 40k. All my DA captains have "names", and are customized and converted. I don't do the same with all my marines, but I have done it with my marines in Kill Team because the team is much smaller. I don't need for GW to tell me one model is a "character" to customize it and personalize it.

For me, If they wanted to make the sergeant the hero, they should’ve given them 2 or 3 wounds. The game is still a unit level game. Adding one or 2 more models to your army doesn’t make it 40k. I absolutely need special character models, rules etc. It added another layer of depth for me. The initial rules for kill team minus characters and elites felt like it was really lacking what I personally required to make it immersive. I would like to see it get bigger personally. I would love to see 3 squads and an hq as a standard game.

Primaris Captains/Chaplains/Libbies, Exalted Sorcerors on Discs, Watch Masters (the Chapter Master equivalent for Deathwatch), Techpriest Dominus, Harlequin Solitaires...they all cost more than the points limit of what is now a standard game of kill team.

I would not call these "low ranking" characters.

If they used a little more restraint, kept it to stuff like Lieutenants for marines, maybe an Apothecary, maybe even added in some new stuff like Skitarii commanders or something to ensure everybody had a 30-80 point commander or two, I think it'd be a fun little expansion pack for the game that I'd happily pick up for 30-40$. But they want 60-70$ to throw characters that cost the same points as a main battle tank into Kill Team. I'm good on that.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Kill Team is not just about your local meta, it encompasses all types of play, Im glad this is out and for narrative gamers like ne it adds some nice ready made easy to use extra options for different games/forces. If you are that concerned about commanders then why not just run a standard Kill team only tournament yourself? Im sure a lot of other gamers would be willing to participate in that

I think worry is the commander will become de facto standard so getting to play without it is going to be hard. Like matched play is de facto standard of 40k and good luck getting game elsewhere and even more specifically tournament rules are de facto standard. Technically 3 det limit and 3 datasheets for 2k is SUGGESTION for ORGANIZED play. In practice those are so hard coded rules you need to pre-arrange to NOT follow it.

In similar vein possibility is KT becomes de facto commanders in. At that point doesn't matter if you keep saying "it's optional". Sure it's optional but if that means no game for you not much it helps.

Exactly this. It's like asking your opponent "Mind if we play Index only ?". Sure you have the right to play without additional content but that doesn't mean your FLGS will do the same when they see the possibility to have more choices to their army. I'm fairly sure this is going to be the case in KT.

And the argument I've seen somewhere that said a lot of missions can't be played with Commanders is not really true. Nothing prevents you to play the missions from the Core Manual with Commanders and adding 50 points.

Brutus_Apex wrote:For me, If they wanted to make the sergeant the hero, they should’ve given them 2 or 3 wounds. The game is still a unit level game. Adding one or 2 more models to your army doesn’t make it 40k. I absolutely need special character models, rules etc. It added another layer of depth for me. The initial rules for kill team minus characters and elites felt like it was really lacking what I personally required to make it immersive. I would like to see it get bigger personally. I would love to see 3 squads and an hq as a standard game.

It's not because your character have a name that it will make it more resilient. I feel models in KT are already hard to kill with the Flesh Wound mechanic. There's already a handful of rules and customisation, and we can't speak of "being immersive" when a SM Captain or a Dominus (the guys who command hundreds of soldiers, millions for the Dominus) leads 8 guys in a hive city to get some fuel. Sergeants and the likes are supposed to handle this kind of mission.

I feel like you had the wrong idea of KT initially, hence why you feel disappointed. Play 500 pts games of 8th if you want that kind of format.

I understand the gripe with using captains and dominos etc. They seem to be too high ranking to be part of a game like kill team. Lieutenants, aspiring champions, exarchs would be more appropriate.

I sort of see them as adding these characters as counts as lieutenants, but just using the 40k model of a captain so as not to confuse the two in the retail department by having different names for different games.

I have no interest in small games of 40k. I’m not playing 500pts, it’s more like 5000 pts. Hence KT.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I understand the gripe with using captains and dominos etc. They seem to be too high ranking to be part of a game like kill team. Lieutenants, aspiring champions, exarchs would be more appropriate.

I sort of see them as adding these characters as counts as lieutenants, but just using the 40k model of a captain so as not to confuse the two in the retail department by having different names for different games.

I have no interest in small games of 40k. I’m not playing 500pts, it’s more like 5000 pts. Hence KT.

You may see characters that way, but I'm not getting the impression that GW does, too.

From the store description, bolded for your convenience:

Even before he rose to lead a brotherhood of the Deathwatch, Acastian of the Ultramarines was known for his calculating demeanour. It is said that he can calculate the number of warriors needed for a victory with but a quick glance at the battlefield. With the resources of an entire Watch Fortress at his disposal, he has waged war in the Vigilus System, personally leading 8 missions to victory, most recently crossing swords with the Drukhari.

GW clearly wants this character to be an actual Watch Master. You know, chapter master equivalent, highest rank a Marine can achieve.

GW doesn't do counts as. They're dead serious about the leader of a chapter, massive army or even a star empire to lead a squad of half a dozen regular joes on raids and the like.

I dunno what the fuss is with the commanders not having a place in kill team. Isn't half the exciting 40K fluff about how the Commander does some heroic mission. Short of some of the Forgeworld Imperial Armour stuff, I can't really recall any instances of:

"The Colonel sighed as he went into the COA recommendation brief, one of the final steps of the military decision making process. He'd been shuffled from meeting to meeting as his staff toiled to identify enemy forces, select targets, and maintain logistics trains. He missed his days as a company commander on the front lines, but realized the Regimental Command Post was where he could influence the battle the most."

I mean, isn't it usually: "Cain wanted to be far from the action so he volunteered to go with the lowly squad of miscreants to blow up the supply dump" or "Commander Farsight saw a hole in his defences and while his cadre was doing battle, he personally shored up a hole in the line alongside a single squad of Fire Warriors."

I mean Colonel Schaeffer, the original Kill Team Commander should be supervising a regimental staff and commanding a formation of some 3000 IG, not skulking around on some covert ops raids like he's watched the dirty dozen one too many times.

On the flip side; as 80% of Space Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes I’m pretty certain it will talk about Chapter Masters and Captains leading from the front in some
Combat situations sure. But I doubt it says; and when you fancy it just sack off commanding the bigger picture (there’s probably a Chaplain who can cover) and go deep behind enemy lines with a couple of scouts and a tactical marine. Not only will the Chapter lose centuries of experience if you die but it will also shatter imperial morale and give out foes a wonderful propaganda tool! Have fun out there!

 Legiocustodes wrote:
On the flip side; as 80% of Space Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes I’m pretty certain it will talk about Chapter Masters and Captains leading from the front in some
Combat situations sure. But I doubt it says; and when you fancy it just sack off commanding the bigger picture (there’s probably a Chaplain who can cover) and go deep behind enemy lines with a couple of scouts and a tactical marine. Not only will the Chapter lose centuries of experience if you die but it will also shatter imperial morale and give out foes a wonderful propaganda tool! Have fun out there!

Yeah it would be a good source of fluff. Especially if WD does some KT games and transfers some tabletop story into the lore, as they used to do all the time. "Chapter Master Raphael lead the Crimson Blades for 3 centuries, achieving notable victories across the Arctara system, and saving the Forge world of Dumox from a Tyranid invasion fleet. He was eventually killed by an Eldar guardian whilst attempting to retrieve a broken Auspex from a hill village on the outskirts of Nowheresville".

 Legiocustodes wrote:
On the flip side; as 80% of Space Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes I’m pretty certain it will talk about Chapter Masters and Captains leading from the front in some
Combat situations sure. But I doubt it says; and when you fancy it just sack off commanding the bigger picture (there’s probably a Chaplain who can cover) and go deep behind enemy lines with a couple of scouts and a tactical marine. Not only will the Chapter lose centuries of experience if you die but it will also shatter imperial morale and give out foes a wonderful propaganda tool! Have fun out there!

Your first mistake was assuming that the Imperium (or any of the other factions really, except maybe the Tau I guess) do anything because it's the tactically wise decision. If you get an opportunity to charge a building-sized bug with a sword, damn straight you're going to charge that bug!

Only if you’re Uriel Ventris... and he got exiled to the Eye of Terror for that little trick

I've been reading the blood of iax book and in that a primaris chaplain goes on a small mission with 3 or 4 reivers which is basically a kill team in it's own right so I don't see it being that much of a problem fluff wise.

I've seen plenty of times in the fluff where a big hero character was leading a "kill team" sized force, and no-one particularly cared.

Chaplain Cassius and Captain Artemis, leading Deathwatch Kill Teams, sets precedent for Primaris characters, as well as the Watch Master (who isn't THAT far above them).

Colonels Schaffer and Gaunt, who even was released by GW as a special commander at their Kill Team event.

Eldrad has also led very small teams (Death Masque)

High ranking Techpriests have been seen leading small teams for recovery, such as in Baneblade.

It's all about how you fluff it, but they can all appear in small Kill Teams.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Kill Team is not just about your local meta, it encompasses all types of play, Im glad this is out and for narrative gamers like ne it adds some nice ready made easy to use extra options for different games/forces. If you are that concerned about commanders then why not just run a standard Kill team only tournament yourself? Im sure a lot of other gamers would be willing to participate in that

I think worry is the commander will become de facto standard so getting to play without it is going to be hard. Like matched play is de facto standard of 40k and good luck getting game elsewhere and even more specifically tournament rules are de facto standard. Technically 3 det limit and 3 datasheets for 2k is SUGGESTION for ORGANIZED play. In practice those are so hard coded rules you need to pre-arrange to NOT follow it.

In similar vein possibility is KT becomes de facto commanders in. At that point doesn't matter if you keep saying "it's optional". Sure it's optional but if that means no game for you not much it helps.

This I understand and sympathize with. Everyone always talks about narrative play, for 30K, 40K, KT. But to date I've never, ever gotten anyone to ever try any narrative missions. With the power that Commanders will bring, they will almost certainly be the defacto game set until other infantry make their appearance.

 Geifer wrote:

Even before he rose to lead a brotherhood of the Deathwatch, Acastian of the Ultramarines was known for his calculating demeanour. It is said that he can calculate the number of warriors needed for a victory with but a quick glance at the battlefield. With the resources of an entire Watch Fortress at his disposal, he has waged war in the Vigilus System, personally leading 8 missions to victory, most recently crossing swords with the Drukhari.

GW clearly wants this character to be an actual Watch Master. You know, chapter master equivalent, highest rank a Marine can achieve.

GW doesn't do counts as. They're dead serious about the leader of a chapter, massive army or even a star empire to lead a squad of half a dozen regular joes on raids and the like.

Eh, DW is kinda bad example. Sure, a lot of Watch Masters command Chapter-like army. A lot more, though, command some outpost that is lucky to have 50 marines in total, and, if they lack proper officers, might well do lead missions themselves. Even DW captains don't command 100 line SM + supporting personnel, but anywhere from 20 to 50 marines, so if his "company" splits, he might well be left in command of Kill Team sized force...

JWBS wrote:
Yeah it would be a good source of fluff. Especially if WD does some KT games and transfers some tabletop story into the lore, as they used to do all the time. "Chapter Master Raphael lead the Crimson Blades for 3 centuries, achieving notable victories across the Arctara system, and saving the Forge world of Dumox from a Tyranid invasion fleet. He was eventually killed by an Eldar guardian whilst attempting to retrieve a broken Auspex from a hill village on the outskirts of Nowheresville".

That's basically how Snikrot was killed off in White Dwarf...