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Ten man squad costs more than a Wraithknight

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Guardians abused to hell?

You planning on swinging the arse end of your 115pt Serpent toward the enemy are you? Their guns have a 12" range, your "90pt" Guardians (who are really 200+pts after Serpent) are going to get out, fire 1 shot that kills 3-4 marines assuming no cover and then explode into a pile of gore because they are point blank and made of paper.

Good luck spamming those Iranna, if you bring your entire troop contingent to bear you may even kill a whole tactical squad before your entire scoring force is wiped out.

Staying 12" range makes guardians just as worthless as they are now.

I don't know where you're getting "spammed" or "abused to hell" from, but it's rather hyperbolic.

I said staple, meaning they will feature in almost all of my games. Bread is a staple food in Britain, doesn't mean it's all people will eat.

Now, you're missing some details:

Yes, the unit will most likely end up being ~200-250pts including the Wave Serpent tax.

However, the 12" range isn't so much of an issue when you can disembark 6", run and then shoot. Furthermore, with Vectored Engines the Wave Serpent can swing it's back armour around after shooting, leaving it nowhere near as vulnerable. Also, with Star Engines that Serpent can move 24" and still fire 2 weapons. Range should not be an issue come turn 2.

With an attached warlock the squad gets very usable. With at least guaranteed Shrouding from him and the abundance of cover they should be getting a 3+ cover save most of the time.

With guardians being a whole 4pts cheaper than DA, with almost identical stats and a potential better save, I will most certainly be using them.

Iranna.

I would be surprised to see reapers in 10 man units, I would imagine 3-5 still being the unit size.

I am looking forward to actually wanting to put my avatar on the board. Even with the rumoured drop to his invuln save, the extra stats and fleet plus warrior skills means he should be a much more attractive option. Plus an ML3 stock Farseer with wargear to lower the warp charge on his powers means that 2 Seers is no longer essential it would seem.

I'm not that well versed on Eldar fluff, but wouldn't an Aspect Warrior have been around for much longer than, say, a Space Marine? So wouldn't he more experienced in the art of whatever s/he's doing?

Even a Guardian would have been around for thousands of years, so wouldn't it make sense if he was better than a trained normal soldier?

The thing that people seem to miss is that BS isn't just natural abilty, advanced sightings/targetting systems and just shear amount of shots can make up for alot .

As to the Guardians still ahveing a 12 inch range, that won't change them much from what they are currently, no mater how much more punch they have been upgraded to.

Always amazes me how GW aproach a problem with a codex/army book, ignore the Gamers and just think of something completly random and tell everyone how great it is.

If they where a mechanic and you took your car in with a stuffed battery they would put on a sports muffler and spoiler kit and tell you it is much better. The battery however would still be stuffed.

Guardians know kung fu nowadays since on their spare time they practice shooting at pottery and breaking staff with naked hands.

I have the following question thought. If a unit of dire avengers is embarked in a serpant that has a twin linked bs4 scatter laser do they get the twin linked effect if the serpant shoots first with the scatter laser and hits?

 Capamaru wrote:
Guardians know kung fu nowadays since on their spare time they practice shooting at pottery and breaking staff with naked hands.

I have the following question thought. If a unit of dire avengers is embarked in a serpant that has a twin linked bs4 scatter laser do they get the twin linked effect if the serpant shoots first with the scatter laser and hits?

Has it got firepoints?, if so most probably based on the rumours I have read so far

All this debate over Guardians being WS/BS is pointless. It is what it is. Also, the Black Guardians of Ulthwe used to be WS or BS 4. As was pointed out, Eldar live far longer than monkeigh and follow many paths. Who knows? Maybe GW has progressed the story and fluff in some way.

tedurur wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.

At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.

The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.

Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.

What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...

Are scatter lasers not heavy?, you wont be able to shoot and run with them based on the rumoers so far.

Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.

Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.

tedurur wrote:

Ok, so what you meant when you said that "you get a full tactical squad+a rhino+weapons" was that weapons = one flamer and that you get the worst MEQ for that price.

Anyway, now you are comparing a 90pts unit to a 180pts unit on planet flat i.e no cover. A 20 Guardian squad would not come without a warlock which would give them a 3++ save. On top of that they would have 2 scatters....

No i'm comparing it to 180pts of guardians, 20 guardians is 180pts not 90pts and if those marines get 2 shots and a double they sustain 17.6 casualties before they get in catapult range. Assuming the Warlock has been buffed to 3++ he saves the unit from 2 wounds before he expires and takes all his buffs with him. Your also likely weighing in at 200+pts including Warlock and even more with scatters. If they do have a Warlock it lets say they have cover, that's what, 12 dead guardians and 2 break tests before they shoot instead? Add in cover and unless it's the Warlock you're losing speed on difficult terrain.

Also, the worst MEQ? it's a standard 6th ed tactical marine, don't try and bill them as bad value.

A pure shooting unit with a 12" range is bad by any measure you choose to make. There is practically no troop unit in the game that unit is going to win a firefight with over the course of a game. They carry practically zero threat until they get close enough to get slapped in the face. Were they 50pts for 10 you could afford such a distraction, at almost double that it's just not a valid option. Your opponent has 2-3 turns of firing before he has to even think about them. You've completely surrendered initiative to the enemy and have to chase him around.

MarkyMark wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.

At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.

The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.

Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.

What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...

Are scatter lasers not heavy?, you wont be able to shoot and run with them based on the rumoers so far.

I would assume they have relentless in this codex

 Capamaru wrote:
Ten man squad costs more than a Wraithknight

True, but that many Reapers will put out far more dmg than a Knight across all types of target, except AV14 and 2+ saves.

Even against AV14 the Reapers could glance it to death.

Also, they are better at taking out Hordes, flyers and FMC than the Knight, with Plasma and Flakk missiles respectively.

I think the fluff justification for the guardian buff is that they are thousands of years old so even being part time soldiers have built up a lot of combat experience.

Unfortunately, this fluff doesn't translate well to the professional soldiers of the craftworlds as they now have the same WS BS & I as the civilian soldiers.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.

Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.

tedurur wrote:

Ok, so what you meant when you said that "you get a full tactical squad+a rhino+weapons" was that weapons = one flamer and that you get the worst MEQ for that price.

Anyway, now you are comparing a 90pts unit to a 180pts unit on planet flat i.e no cover. A 20 Guardian squad would not come without a warlock which would give them a 3++ save. On top of that they would have 2 scatters....

No i'm comparing it to 180pts of guardians, 20 guardians is 180pts not 90pts and if those marines get 2 shots and a double they sustain 17.6 casualties before they get in catapult range. Assuming the Warlock has been buffed to 3++ he saves the unit from 2 wounds before he expires and takes all his buffs with him. Your also likely weighing in at 200+pts including Warlock and even more with scatters. If they do have a Warlock it lets say they have cover, that's what, 12 dead guardians and 2 break tests before they shoot instead? Add in cover and unless it's the Warlock you're losing speed on difficult terrain.

Also, the worst MEQ? it's a standard 6th ed tactical marine, don't try and bill them as bad value.

A pure shooting unit with a 12" range is bad by any measure you choose to make. There is practically no troop unit in the game that unit is going to win a firefight with over the course of a game. They carry practically zero threat until they get close enough to get slapped in the face. Were they 50pts for 10 you could afford such a distraction, at almost double that it's just not a valid option. Your opponent has 2-3 turns of firing before he has to even think about them. You've completely surrendered initiative to the enemy and have to chase him around.

Yes, DA MEQs are worse than vanilla and SW... WTF would I place the warlock in front of the unit? He gives shrouded to the whole unit so the whole squad will have a 3++ save vs bolters. 20 Guardians will have 2 weapon platforms you are only calculating with 1 scatter laser....But as I said, its pointless to arguee in hyperbole land so this will be my last comment on the guardian issue.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

tedurur wrote:
What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...

DAngles codex, ie the 6th ed Marine standard.

Your maths is *way* off.

10 Marines armed with only boltguns will score:

10 Shots
6.66 Hits
4.44 kills

A BS4 Scatter laser will score:

4 shots
2.66 hits
2.22 Wounds
0.74 Marine kills

That tells quite a different story.

We don't know anything for sure Rohan, the people we have supposedly posting actual rules could still be trolling but we're close enough to release for them to have a lot of traction.

I like the new guardians, let me present a scenario...

11 Guardians with scatter laser in a wave serpent move up, guardians get out and shoot at MEQ.

As you've said the scatter laser will do 0.74, guardians are now twin-linked with no need for psychic powers.

Of the initial 22 shots 14.67 will hit, of the rerolled shots 4.89 will hit for a total of 19.56 hits.

Now for wounding taking into account the new rules for shuriken weapons:
Of the 19.56 hits 3.26 will end up being a 6 so autowounds no save, and the marines will have to take saves against 6.52 wounds, of which they won't save 2.17.
So in total that is 0.74+3.26+2.17 = 6.17 dead marines. If you add in a warlock with the -1 to armour save that becomes 7.56 dead marines accounting for his extra shuriken pistol shot.
Real world accounting for everything including chance to fail psychic power and deny the witch it is: 0.74+3.41+2.17 so wounds 6.32 wounds with a 52% chance it will be boosted to 7.56 wounds.

Dire Avengers on the other hand are 4 pts more expensive, have the ranged bonus, no scatterlaser, same bs and cannot take warlocks in the squad.
So their mathhammer is 16 hits, 4.47 wounds base, adding in an exarch with 2x catapults and bladestorm if it's still there it's 26.17 hits, 7.26 wounds.

So if guardians get the power off they do .3 more wounds than bladestorming DA, if not they do 0.94 less wounds.
Price wise 12 guardians plus wave serpent is 223 pts +15 for scatterlaser (238)
11 guardians plus warlock and WS is 249 pts + 15 for scatterlaser (264)
12 DA plus wave serpent is 271 pts
11 DA plus exarch is 291 pts (if bladestorm is the same price as last codex)

So It seems base guardians in a wave serpent is more point efficient than dire avengers with exarch for killing space marines, funnily enough vanilla DA is the least efficient. Of course this is all mathhammer so YMMV

Also don't forget the upgrade that allows vehicles to swivel after shooting now.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.

Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.

I'm confused: What single shot?

3+ cover sounds quire durable to me in all honesty. Even 5+ cover is still okay.

Iranna.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
Guardians know kung fu nowadays since on their spare time they practice shooting at pottery and breaking staff with naked hands.

I have the following question thought. If a unit of dire avengers is embarked in a serpant that has a twin linked bs4 scatter laser do they get the twin linked effect if the serpant shoots first with the scatter laser and hits?

Has it got firepoints?, if so most probably based on the rumours I have read so far

I don't think WS will have fire points but what if avengers disembark and the serpant shoots at an enemy unit before the dire avengers

 Sarigar wrote:
Fortune appears work on a Beastpack now. And Karandaras gets Shrouding...

I like where your head's at.

 Red Viper wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Fortune appears work on a Beastpack now. And Karandaras gets Shrouding...

I like where your head's at.

What is fortune now?

Hm, flak missiles for the Reapers might be fun. I'll have to go check out my basement and see if I actually kept the small horde of the things I ended up with. (I bought someone's bitz years ago... dang thing had something like 20 reaper bodies in it. No guns, but lots of bodies.)

 Iranna wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.

Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.

I'm confused: What single shot?

3+ cover sounds quire durable to me in all honesty. Even 5+ cover is still okay.

Iranna.

I think he means you'll only get one round of shooting off.

The 10 x Reaper squad will make me a very happy player if we get it.

*Says the man who has still got 4 squads of them from 3rd ed when they were troops *

So how are people feeling about Storm Guardians now as they have buffed stats and can take two power swords?

 Iranna wrote:

I'm confused: What single shot?

3+ cover sounds quire durable to me in all honesty. Even 5+ cover is still okay.

Iranna.

That assumes you've been able to drop into a position where you can fire your 12" range gun at the desired target *and* still be in cover without bunching up too badly and without allowing someone with an 8" range plus 6" move flamer to slaughter the entire unit. It also assumes you pass any psi test you may have to make and that they are immune to things like runic weapons, that your transport isn't damage along the way or your enemy aren't Eldar or Tau, Slaaneshi, or that they don't just charge you...

You are having to make the stars align to get any versatility out of the unit and while if you can pull all those things together they are okay, it's too many caveats to make them useful. Those Guardians are dead next turn, only difference is the flavor.

Use Avengers and you remove the charge threat, the flamer threat and any AP5 or worse cover ignoring threat, the risk of failing psi checks and you have more place you can stand and still attack your desired target. They are simply a better unit fulfilling the same battlefield role.

 Crimson wrote:
So how are people feeling about Storm Guardians now as they have buffed stats and can take two power swords?

Banshees get all power swords and they're poo.

 Crimson wrote:
So how are people feeling about Storm Guardians now as they have buffed stats and can take two power swords?

That depends on if you can assault out of a Serpent and if the potential to throw -1 WS on people with psi powers is true. With both those things they might be okay if they are cheap but if they have to stand around outside for a turn 6-18" from the enemy they are going to get hosed even with a Shroud-Lock. They have the same problems as Defenders, they have to get close and are far too vulnerable to basic weapons and stuff like flamers.

You're probably better off paying more and getting Wraithblades.

Gods, looks like we're gonna drag up every panzee whine from the last 15 years. It's pretty obvious that most Eldar players secretly really want to play Marines.

Hope the Corsairs list gets an update for the new codex, run shoot, jetpack sounds fun.

The only pooh unit right now is banshees... Scorpions might be able to make it walking into assault, harlies are kinda the same with the veil power getting

nicer: (veil of teirs: blessing, every enemy shooting on the fateseer and his unit has to roll 2d6 x 2 to see if they are within range. if they are not they

cannot decide to shoot on a different target) and wraithblades can deliver quite a punch since they are tough as nails.

Do we know what the banshee mask does and if the exarch two hand weapon is AP2? If they are not able to assault out of a serpant then they will collect

dust for the next 6 years or so.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Gods, looks like we're gonna drag up every panzee whine from the last 15 years. It's pretty obvious that most Eldar players secretly really want to play Marines.

Well that's just wrong. I would probably rate Space Marines second last on my list of armies that I'd play, with Eldar at the top. The fluff bores me and the units bore me. I'd take our old codex over the new space marine codex any day, which makes it even more awesome now that we have a new codex that will kick SM players ass.

Very interesting new rules. Pretty much every unit has got a buff in some way, although banshees are still crap it sems :(