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I have right now at last count 10 lootas in my orc 1500 point army. I haven't had any great success or miserable failures with them either. My issue always seems to be placement, being able to set them up by turn 2 or 3 and exact any sort of real damage has been tough, so my thought is maybe I'm missing something. I haven't looked over too many tournament lists but at the local shops I've been to it seems that people have at least moderate success with them when they are used to full effect.
SO, two questions:
Am I missing something? Please tell me a good tactic if you have one.
Or Should I just dump them for better used points?

Loota spam is a good guide to success, given that you apply them in accordance with their abilities. If the deployment allows it, toss them in a high building or a hill and let them do work. They're far from hardy, which sucks. In a tournament I bring at least 30 of them, relying on my HQ selections to allow more elites as troops.

The secret with Lootas is you take them in min squads, so with your 10, you take 2 x5 loota mobs (make sure they are ALL LOOTAS, dont waste your time with a mek,make that mek a friggin loota) That way you can potentially pop 1 vehicle each, or you can shoot them both at the same unit. And doing that, means on average youll get more shots down range then if they were 1 single unit.

Also, you should most matches, be able to set them up during your set up, that way turn 1 they are blasting away. Im failing to see why you need to take upto 3 turns to do this. Another pro to the size of these squads, if its only 75pts, so if the enemy is shooting at them, then its less fire being shot at the rest of the boyz. Totally a win/win

schmikah wrote:I have right now at last count 10 lootas in my orc 1500 point army. I haven't had any great success or miserable failures with them either. My issue always seems to be placement, being able to set them up by turn 2 or 3 and exact any sort of real damage has been tough, so my thought is maybe I'm missing something. I haven't looked over too many tournament lists but at the local shops I've been to it seems that people have at least moderate success with them when they are used to full effect.
SO, two questions:
Am I missing something? Please tell me a good tactic if you have one.
Or Should I just dump them for better used points?

You didnt miss anything. The problems you have highlighted is the problem many of us face with lootas.

1) 6+ armor means you have to almost always place them in cover, i.e. your options are limited.
2) Ld 7 means they are running almost half the time if they take 25% casualty.

If you would compare them with LongFangs (3+ armor, Ld9, split fire, etc), of course the LFs give you better flexibility and survivability. HOWEVER, that being said, Lootas aren't really poor choice either.

Just make sure you spend the first 1 or EVEN 2 turns moving them into the ideal spot, and then fire off after that. And keep the squad small (if you can help it), because the larger your squad, the more difficult it is for every single member to have LOS to a single target.
In terms of damage per point (against light vehicles especially), lootas are the most point efficient within the ork codex. And you really need them to crack open the transports (light vehicles most of the time) and skimmers blocking, so that your mobs can chew the contents or advance. I would say although they might not be the best (and have their cons), they are pretty much indispensable in an ork army.

Isseyfaran wrote:1) 6+ armor means you have to almost always place them in cover, i.e. your options are limited.
2) Ld 7 means they are running almost half the time if they take 25% casualty.

It only takes a single unit's shooting to kill 5 Lootas in cover. If you leave them out of cover the enemy still has to spend a squad killing them. This also fixes your Ld issues: the squad will almost certainly be dead in either case. Deploy them where ever you need to, comfortable in the knowledge that cover wouldn't save them from damage. There is absolutely no reason for them not to be shooting on the first turn. It is tactically detrimental to do otherwise.

It seems you may have a problem with your battlefield terrain rather than the Lootas themselves. Are there no 2+ storey buidlings in your DZ each game, no hills, no large ruins, or even an area of cover with good battlefield LOS?

If not, I think you need to mix up your terrain rather than mix up your tactics.


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Disgree with Darkhound btw, saying that cover wont save them is simply not true. A decent bit of 4+ save can make a huge difference to them. You also assume taking casualties automatically equals a breaktest so they're off anyway. Whilst LD7 is poor it dosent mean they will run every time.

Giving them the chance to save and keep firing in subsequent turns is key becuase of the sheer volume of fire they can put out with a decent roll.

What is the point in leaving them in the open, getting off one turn of shooting in turn 1 and then having them wiped out?

DarkHound wrote:It only takes a single unit's shooting to kill 5 Lootas in cover. If you leave them out of cover the enemy still has to spend a squad killing them. This also fixes your Ld issues: the squad will almost certainly be dead in either case. Deploy them where ever you need to, comfortable in the knowledge that cover wouldn't save them from damage. There is absolutely no reason for them not to be shooting on the first turn. It is tactically detrimental to do otherwise.

Not exactly true. Say 3 TL HB from 3 Razorbacks :- that's only 8 hits, 5.333 wounds, 2.666 dead lootas after cover.
Not to say it's hard to kill an entirely squad of 5 lootas in a single turn of shooting - it's easy.
But if there are 2 squads of 5 lootas each across the board, and I only have enough firepower to kill off 5 of them on average (after hits, wounding, and cover) WITHOUT wasting my anti tank guns on them, then i would probably split my shots into 2 squad instead of focus firing everything into one. Since statstically i am going to kill off only 5 lootas (whether from a single squad or combined from 2 squads), i might as well force morale test on both of them and potentially wipe out 10 lootas, instead if 5.

So contrary to what you think, there are ALOT of situations where you ll be taking morale test on those lootas.

I agree on the point that if cover is not within reach without sacrificing a turn of shooting, then it may make sense to just deploy them in the open, not because of Ld reason, but rather opportunity cost. After all, 1 turn of 5 lootas not shooting means 10 less (average) s7 shots. Even if you save half of 5 lootas next turn, that's just 5 s7 shots on turn 2. You need 2 turns to earn back that loss. But at least staying in cover and forcing your opponent to expend twice the amount of ammo to eliminate your lootas means less ammo on the rest of your army - assuming you have similar targets on the board that the small arms can hurt.

Small games: Lootas as 5 ork units. Cheap, usually enough to pop any transport, and with good dakka roll might even mow down some unhappy 'nid or IG footslogger unit.

Bigger games (or when your elite FOC slot is in high demand): Lootas as 9 ork units. Won't get ld test for losing 2 models, so cover benefits are good. Usually overkill for a single trasport, but good against tougher targets. Even AV13 can be glanced to deff with sheer volume on good dakka roll.

Lootas as 15 ork unit: always overkill (except agains vehicle squadrons), too pricey, and you tend to lose more boyz for breaking morale. Not recommended.

Loota is an amazingly cheap autocannon, one of the best units in the 'dex IMO.

Unit of 9 do not offer any advantage. Losing 2 or 3 is nothing but a matter of dice luck and six models running off after losing 3 is bad.

Well...

There is always luck when dice are rolled. However, there is always some cut-off point. If you have 6, 7 or 8 lootas, they will take ld when you lose 2 models. Unit of 9 does not. For me, that makes unit of 9 much better than units of 6, 7 or 8. Why? Because things that tend to shoot at my lootas are:
-rifleman, hydra: 4 shots, 4 hits, 4 wounlds, 2 saves = lost 2 boyz
-dakkapred: 8 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 saves = lost 2 boyz
-tac squad: 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save = lost 2 boyz
-LRBT: hits 5, wounds 4, 2 saves = lost 2 boyz

Of course there is a lot of rounding in these figures but they more pessimistic than optimistic, and indicate IMO two things: either enemy has to have two units shooting at my lootas, or I have to roll badly for cover, to be forced to an ld test with 9 lootas in a single round. Of course I cannot help the rolling part, but unit size can be used to force enemy to overkill to be sure of ld test. And lets not forget that lootas have a range of 48, so in most cases its not clear cut that enemy even has two anti-inf units with enought reach.

Neither 6, 7, 8 or 9 and even 10 or 11 are viable for the same matter. The average value is not the value you get most of the time, a single d6 has an average result of 3.5, but you will roll a 1 as often as you roll a 6.

The chance of actually losing exactly two lootaz from four wounds is 37.5%, the chance of losing exactly one is 25% and the chance of losing none is 6.25%. So the total chance of not having to test from most your examples is 68.75%, for a total chance of about 20% of them running away even from those units causing an average of two losses.

Even if you are only losing two lootaz, your opponent can simply shoot a second unit at them - the potential gain of removing 105 points worth of anti-vehicle weaponry easily justifies that. A rhino with a stormbolter or a chimera with multi-lasers can even plink away the third model. Not to mention weapons that will outright kill three lootaz, like dual scatterlasers, grotzookas, manticores or about any unit deepstriking nearby and opening fire.

For that exact reason you should field a unit of 15. Even if he shoots a total of three of your exemplary units at them, they would still test at ld9. And last time I checked, soaking up three LRBT hits and keep shooting was a good thing.

Isseyfaran wrote:But if there are 2 squads of 5 lootas each across the board, and I only have enough firepower to kill off 5 of them on average (after hits, wounding, and cover) WITHOUT wasting my anti tank guns on them, then i would probably split my shots into 2 squad instead of focus firing everything into one. Since statstically i am going to kill off only 5 lootas (whether from a single squad or combined from 2 squads), i might as well force morale test on both of them and potentially wipe out 10 lootas, instead if 5.

If the squad is split, you split your fire and force two morale tests. If the squad is together, you combine your fire and force one. You'll kill 5 either way. In the former, the Lootas have two chances to pass the morale test, so that situation is favorable.

You made the point I did not make explicitly clear: cover is advisable, but not necessary.

DarkHound wrote:If the squad is split, you split your fire and force two morale tests. If the squad is together, you combine your fire and force one. You'll kill 5 either way. In the former, the Lootas have two chances to pass the morale test, so that situation is favorable.

Sorry, but I m kind of lost here. What is the point you are driving at?

Because I was talking about cover and Ld being an issue for lootas. You said Ld is not a problem for lootas because if targetted, they will die in a turn anyway. I said no, because lootas are almost always taken in squads of 5. And even at 5 strong, smart opponents will split fire into both squads of lootas to make each of them take morale test, instead of focus firing one squad to death. Therefore, the conclusion is that Ld is a consideration for lootas because they will be taking morale test more often than you think they do.

Am I the only one who is worrying about the loss of 2 elite slots for 2 squads of 5 lootas? I understand the point of not wanting to waste 10 looters when they run off the board, but I also feel there are other elites I would like to bring. Using 2 slots of 3 seems like a frivolous waste of an already rare allocation slot with orks.

For some reason I thought you were advocating taking them in squads of 10 to avoid easy morale tests. Forgive me, it's now 5AM and I can't go to sleep. Don't worry, I can turn all this into a coherent point.

Debating about the perils of taking morale tests is moot. You cannot take a different unit, you cannot take any upgrade to affect their morale. You have no control over the fact that Lootas have issues with morale. (Except to take them in squads of 15, however that is only useful when you can take multiple 15s. A topic for another thread.)


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SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Am I the only one who is worrying about the loss of 2 elite slots for 2 squads of 5 lootas?

Yes. What else would you spend the slots on, especially at 1500 points? If you're taking Tank Bustas, take them instead of Lootas. If you're taking Kommandos, you don't need more than 1 squad (unless you're Infiltrating 45 of them, which is viable). Nobs should be Troops. You don't need 2 squads of Burnas. Am I missing anyone?

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Am I the only one who is worrying about the loss of 2 elite slots for 2 squads of 5 lootas? I understand the point of not wanting to waste 10 looters when they run off the board, but I also feel there are other elites I would like to bring. Using 2 slots of 3 seems like a frivolous waste of an already rare allocation slot with orks.

If only want to use one slot, just pick 15. Think of the extra five as mandatory, like the nob upgrade for your boyz, or snikrot for kommandoz.

In addition, you usually do have that one slot to spare:

- Footslogging armies (Kan wall, green tide, dread bash) can make use of kommandoz, but more than one unit is rare. Nobz, burnaz and tankbustaz are highly inefficient.
- Battlewagon-mounted lists don't need a second KFF, so you are almost definitely getting a warboss and thus nobz as troops. Unless you want 2 units of burnaz and/or tank bustas you probably have that slot to spare. Kommandoz aren't really needed and also too expensive in BW lists.
- (Nob)Bikerlists will have no use for any other elites

So the only army really needing all three elite slots are trukk lists, and they usually have the points to spare for a full 15.

DarkHound wrote:Debating about the perils of taking morale tests is moot. You cannot take a different unit, you cannot take any upgrade to affect their morale. You have no control over the fact that Lootas have issues with morale. (Except to take them in squads of 15, however that is only useful when you can take multiple 15s. A topic for another thread.)

But that's not the point I am driving at when advising the OP. I merely pointed out the pros and cons of lootas, and weighted them against each other. And then concluded that even with the cons. there are no better alternatives in the ork codex that can replace lootas' role as an efficient fire support.

The only control over the Ld problem is to take multiple units of 5 lootas. I normally max out my elite slots with MSUs of lootas and nothing else. Kommandos, burnas, and nobs just aren't point efficient in tac lists.

Nobz aren't efficient as a TAC choice? Uh. . . that's news to me, and I would bet to most other Ork players as well. That said, you usually do not need more than one unit, and that unit is a Troops choice (since you have either w Warboss for the cheapness or Ghazghkull for the Waaagh).

I find minimum-size squads of Lootas to be too fragile and not powerful enough. If I take Lootas (not often, lately) I usually run units of 10; a good compromise between low cost and high firepower. Nothing is going to make them resilient, and 15 Lootas is often dramatic overkill if they roll well for their Deffguns (45 shots? Geez. . .) but 10 put out a solid wall of firepower without wasting a bunch of points pummeling an already-wrecked vehicle into smaller chunks of scrap.

Footslogging nobz aren't efficient, yes. Because everyone will point anything stronger than a lasgun at them and shoot them dead, and they can't do a thing about it.

Jidmah wrote:Footslogging nobz aren't efficient, yes. Because everyone will point anything stronger than a lasgun at them and shoot them dead, and they can't do a thing about it.

THAT, I will certainly agree with. Nobz in a Battlewagon, on the other hand, are quite a solid unit.

I suggest 3 squads of 5 each, or 15 total.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Footslogging nobz aren't efficient, yes. Because everyone will point anything stronger than a lasgun at them and shoot them dead, and they can't do a thing about it.

THAT, I will certainly agree with. Nobz in a Battlewagon, on the other hand, are quite a solid unit.

I never claimed anything else

Jidmah wrote:

I never claimed anything else

Good job my original post was responding to Isseyfaran and not you then, isn't it?

Isseyfaran wrote:Kommandos, burnas, and nobs just aren't point efficient in tac lists.

Name me anything boys cant do, that the nobs can, for the same point cost.

And I believe that's news to you because you are new to orks. This has been discussed long enough in dakka. I believe DashofPepper said the same thing before as well (not that he means everything, but just quoting an exaample).

So yeah, it's stale news already.

Isseyfaran wrote:Name me anything boys cant do, that the nobs can, for the same point cost.

And I believe that's news to you because you are new to orks. This has been discussed long enough in dakka. I believe DashofPepper said the same thing before as well (not that he means everything, but just quoting an exaample).

So yeah, it's stale news already.

Destroy vehicles reliably.

Survive massed small-arms fire or multiple blast weapons.

Survive flamers.

Go toe-to-toe with other heavy assault units such as Abbadon + Khorne Berzerkers.

Kill Purifiers.

Win combats when charged.

So there's six. Nobz are a deathstar heavy assault unit with very high survivability, designed to put a lot of close-combat power into a small space. Boyz are a strong, all-rounder troops unit who suffer from fragility and a t-shirt save, designed to control areas of the board and chop up non-dedicated assault units. They're very different units with very different roles, and the list of things they can both do effectively is actually shorter than the list of things that only one of them can do effectively.

Also, since you brought up Dashofpepper, you may have noticed that his (highly competitive) Ork list included a unit of diversified Nobz. He said some fairly ambivalent things about them, at times. . . but he used them, consistently.


All that said, this is a thread about lootas, and I'm not interested in getting into another argument. Back to my point; Lootas don't do well in squads of five. Even if they don't run off the table when shot at, 3-4 lootas will not put out enough fire to scare anyone or accomplish anything. Run them in squads of 10, is my advice; big enough to be pretty confident of killing a transport per turn, and even if one or two go down to enemy shooting the rest can still throw enough bullets downrange to do some damage.

I most commonly see them run in 5s or 15s. More disposable or more durable.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Destroy vehicles reliably.

You rely HEAVILY on firepower/deffrollas to do that. You DON'T (as far as you can control it) rely on your infantry to hit those boxcars. That's suicide.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Survive massed small-arms fire or multiple blast weapons.

Survive flamers.

Spread out your boys. And for a cost of 6 pts per boy, you don't "lose" as much as you think you are. For Every ONE Diversified Nob you lose, i can afford to lose 6-8 boys.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Go toe-to-toe with other heavy assault units such as Abbadon + Khorne Berzerkers.

You lose nobs to go against heavy hitting units?!?!
Time to learn. Use boys with hidden klaw to do that job..., not Nobs.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Kill Purifiers.

Instant death. Enuff said.
And orks (besides using Ghaz) shoot purifiers to death. YOu don't assault them IF you can help it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Win combats when charged.

Moot point.

1) It's about what I choose to do if I want to, not about we I have to deal with as a result of my incompetency as a general.
2) 5 Diversified Nobs (1 klaw, 1 big choppa, banner, pole, painboy) cost almost as much as a squad of 30 boys. When charged by a squad of 10 Grey Hunters, 30 boys lose on average 6.25 wounds, and deal back 5 wounds. 5 Nobs lose on average 2.5 wounds, and deals back 2.33 wounds. They survive better, but not exactly more damaging... And they don't exactly win the battle better than the boys in this case. But anyway, point (1) prevails.

BeRzErKeR wrote:So there's six.

There are 6 examples, which supports my point even further, unless you utilizes your units the wrong way (like charging purifiers, for e.g., which in this case is an issue of incompetent general).

BeRzErKeR wrote:Nobz are a deathstar heavy assault unit with very high survivability, designed to put a lot of close-combat power into a small space.

They are a deathstar point sink, that aren't necessarily more damaging, but high survivability - against SMALL arms ONLY.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Boyz are a strong, all-rounder troops unit

PRECISELY.

BeRzErKeR wrote:who suffer from fragility and a t-shirt save,

But you can buy ALOT of them, and you don't expect a 6 points model to be too resilient.

BeRzErKeR wrote:designed to control areas of the board and chop up non-dedicated assault units.

They chop up TH/SS terminators too. Not sure if i wouldn't call Assault Terminators dedicated assault units...

BeRzErKeR wrote:Also, since you brought up Dashofpepper, you may have noticed that his (highly competitive) Ork list included a unit of diversified Nobz. He said some fairly ambivalent things about them, at times. . . but he used them, consistently.

And he didnt swap them out because (1) he was too lazy to do that (2) He has already GOTTEN USED to using Nobs. So yah, you only had half the facts right...

BeRzErKeR wrote:All that said, this is a thread about lootas, and I'm not interested in getting into another argument.

Not really an argument but rather a fact which apprently majority of the dakkanauts are already aware of.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Back to my point; Lootas don't do well in squads of five. Even if they don't run off the table when shot at, 3-4 lootas will not put out enough fire to scare anyone or accomplish anything. Run them in squads of 10, is my advice; big enough to be pretty confident of killing a transport per turn, and even if one or two go down to enemy shooting the rest can still throw enough bullets downrange to do some damage.

5 Lootas - 10 shots, 3.333 s7 hits, 1.111 pens against AV11. Times 3 for 3 squads of them. I am not sure how RELIABLE you want it. 3-4 pens per vehicle?

If you want to argue about Nobs, feel free to start another thread to do so. This isn't the place for it.

As for lootas; I want 2 pens per vehicle. I'm using them to stop transports, which basically means I need to immobilize or destroy it; stunning is acceptable, but temporary, and I'd really rather have them permanently stopped. That means that only half the vehicle damage chart is actually much good for my purposes, so taking 10 Lootas gives me two rolls on the chart and a 75% chance of permanently stopping the vehicle, rather than a 50% chance. Also, those 10 Lootas still only cost 150 points, so it's not like I'm all that fussed if I lose them.

In games 1000 points or less 2 squads of 5 are very effective I have found. moving into 1500, taking 2 squads of 5 is just a waste of FOC slots. However from experience of using them and inline w what jidmah has recommended, do not use a group of 7,8,9,10,11. Use 15.

It might be statistically overkill for anything you are aiming at but so what. Lootas play an important role if you use them and I don't want to lose a game because I didn't fork over and extra 45 points for 3 more lootas. 10 lootas break incredibly easy. One GK psyfledread will break them in turn 1 unless there are 15 of them, specifically for this reason I will no longer use them in groups of 9 or 10-so many guys at my local store will dump 2 units of shooting their first turn into lootas because they know how dangerous high vloume str 7 shooting is. However splitting them into 3 groups of 5 at 1500+ points is just not a good use of FOC. You almost have to use groups of 15 at this point or dont bring them.

Also if you can't find cover, throw 9 grots in front of them. The grots can also help eat a charge later in the game vs disembarking DE meanies as well. lootas on the charge are shoota boyz and do Ok, but like any boyz they don't like to be charged.

Anything da boyz can't krump, da nobz can krump. Anything the nobz can't krump, da boyz can krump. They compliment each other well. I'm not saying they are required for a winning list, but saying they are bad is right out.

On topic- Ten lootas is not a good number for them. 5 is expendable, powerful, can get cover easily, and doesn't care about leadership. 15 is big, has strong ld, powerful output, and can even handle itself in cc if it relly needed too. 10 becomes an investment, breaks easily, hurts when it runs, still has ld problems, and has a hard time finding cover (which you now need to have, because they aren't expendeble like 5 man units, and they don't have the bodies to soak it up, like 15 man units).