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Im tossing up whether it is better to use Hydras or heavy weapons teams for some autocannons.

Both units are the same price, the hydra gets 4 twin-linked shots and the heavy team gets 6 non twin-linked shots (unless an order is used).

In your opinion which would be better?


Edit*

Also if taking Heavy Weapon Teams, which weapon loadout works best?

Heavy weapons teams are vulnerable to small arms fire...
Hydras, not so much but are bigger targets.
I think 4 twin-linked beats 6 non twin-linked...
If you haven't got anything to but in Heavy Support then go for Hydras, if you want some more artillery then go for heavy weapons teams.

The heavy weapons teams are overall better, they don't clog up your heavy support and can receive orders, provide more targets for you enemy to have to shoot, and so forth.

Unless your playing a mech army, in which case hydra would be good, forcing too many vehicle targets.

I disagree. Heavy Weapon Teams are the epitome of fragility. Anything strength 6+ will ID one team out of the squad and force a morale test. Strength 6 can only glance the front armor of a Hydra. True, a Hydra does compete with your Ordinance Batteries, Leman Russ Squadrons and other choices, but just about any army would earn KP hand over fist if you used HWTs in mass.

I was leaning towards the heavy teams, mainly because if using cover they would seem to be a bit harder to take out than a hydra.

Hydras ignoring cover saves from vehicles moving flat out is pretty cool though.

They're basically the same. Take a hydra if you have an HS slot open as they are a little more durable and do slightly more damage (always ignores SMF instead of only half the time, and get a free heavy bolter), and the HWS if you want a scoring unit that can camp a backfield objective.

Other than that, it's six of one, half dozen the other.

Don't forget that the Hydra's look more awesome though! I had one kill a Demon Prince in one turn of shooting just the other week! Although, I got very lucky!

themandudeperson wrote:I disagree. Heavy Weapon Teams are the epitome of fragility. Anything strength 6+ will ID one team out of the squad and force a morale test.

The opponent must choose to place their str 6 or higher shots against these teams, instead of your vehicles. The HWT's have a 4+ cover, can always shoot, can go to ground, ect ect. They are also troops, so they can hold objectives if that becomes needed. Just how many str 6 or higher weapons do your opponents have normally? Most aremissiles, melta or lascannons, and wasting a shot from those against a heavy weapon team is... kinda dumb.

juraigamer wrote:The opponent must choose to place their str 6 or higher shots against these teams,

but S6 shots patter helplessly off of AV12

juraigamer wrote:The HWT's have a 4+ cover

which hydras can also get

juraigamer wrote:can always shoot

unless they move, unlike hydras.

Plus, better shaken for a turn, then running away or dead for the rest of the game.

juraigamer wrote:can go to ground

But then they can't shoot...

juraigamer wrote:They are also troops, so they can hold objectives if that becomes needed.

Right, this being their chief advantage.

juraigamer wrote:Just how many str 6 or higher weapons do your opponents have normally?

Eldar certainly do a lot of S6, but I'd be more worried about S7. Autocannons aren't very good against AV12, but they ID models in a tiny unit with very poor leadership.

Really, HWSs are one of the very few target types that autocannons actually do well against...

I really wanted to try HWTs, until I realized...

1) HWTs don't have a sergeant, so they're LD7, which means that your orders are probably not going to work. Probably a waste of an order, and a PCS that could be doing something else.

2) They're fragile. Not because you can ID them with S6 or better, but because IF they take even a single casualty, they're taking morale on LD7, and it's goodnight sweet HWT.


They aren't really even OK for camping an objective, because they're going to get shot and run anyway so you'll probably need to keep something else back there on the objective anyway.

Pretty sure they are Ld 7 yea?

Xeriapt wrote:Pretty sure they are Ld 7 yea?

Fixed. Had a little brainfart there

At the moment Im kinda thinking of using 4 auto cannon HWS in a 1000pt force.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

juraigamer wrote:The opponent must choose to place their str 6 or higher shots against these teams,

but S6 shots patter helplessly off of AV12

juraigamer wrote:The HWT's have a 4+ cover

which hydras can also get

juraigamer wrote:can always shoot

unless they move, unlike hydras.

Plus, better shaken for a turn, then running away or dead for the rest of the game.

juraigamer wrote:can go to ground

But then they can't shoot...

juraigamer wrote:They are also troops, so they can hold objectives if that becomes needed.

Right, this being their chief advantage.

juraigamer wrote:Just how many str 6 or higher weapons do your opponents have normally?

Eldar certainly do a lot of S6, but I'd be more worried about S7. Autocannons aren't very good against AV12, but they ID models in a tiny unit with very poor leadership.

Really, HWSs are one of the very few target types that autocannons actually do well against...

Going to Ground can always be overcome by Get Back in the Fight at least.

juraigamer wrote:
The opponent must choose to place their str 6 or higher shots against these teams, instead of your vehicles. The HWT's have a 4+ cover, can always shoot, can go to ground, ect ect. They are also troops, so they can hold objectives if that becomes needed. Just how many str 6 or higher weapons do your opponents have normally? Most aremissiles, melta or lascannons, and wasting a shot from those against a heavy weapon team is... kinda dumb.

I think Ailaros argued my case quite well.
Not to mention as both an IG and a SM player I have a tendency to kill very frail things that can easily trash my transports. Say, like... HWTs. Also, the point about an easily scored KP was never touched. I can spare a ML-equipped Devastator Squad's fire for one turn if I know it'll almost certainly earn me a KP or at the very least, keep my opponent from popping a Rhino and giving him one. 3 BS 4 kraks and 1 BS 5 equates to 2.83 hits.That's 2.36 wounds. With 4+ cover that's 1.18, which ID's and kills one crew, forcing a leadership test. Or they "Go to Ground", with a 3+ and you get something like .78 wounds (which is still good odds of killing one), but now I KNOW next turn either an order will be wasted on "Get Back In The Fight" which requires a leadership to be effective.
On the IG side of things, I like my infantry blobs, so I have plenty of excess autocannons to throw at them, while my melta-vets and Vendettas focus on vehicles.

Xeriapt wrote:
Going to Ground can always be overcome by Get Back in the Fight at least.

At which point you won't be able to twin-link it's fire with "Bring It Down!" and it will only match a Hydra's firepower.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They aren't really even OK for camping an objective, because they're going to get shot and run anyway so you'll probably need to keep something else back there on the objective anyway.

It's not quite that simple.

HWSs, being a infantry-heavy-weapon support choice is really judged by the first couple of turns of shooting. After that, the odds that you're doing all that much start to decline, and in a hurry. The question is what do you want the unit to do after choice autocannon targets are blown up turns 1 and 2, and everything else is in your lines now?

Once mid game hits, both hydras and HWSs start to lose out, and they're probably doing very little at the end of the game. In the case of the hydra, it's just dead weight, while the HWS can still be useful.

But what about it's fragility? Well, hydras and HWSs are both pretty fragile against things that really want them dead, so there really isn't much lost for the HWS here. If anything, the fact that they're scoring means that they'll be drawing more fire than a hydra would, which means that they're less likely shooting at something else, which means you get a benefit to that loss, even if it's subtle. Plus, you can always do things in list building and movement to discourage your opponents from targeting your HWSs (like, by forcing them to target something else). Once again, this is subtle, but real.

That and there's actually a narrow range in which HWSs actually put out more damage (against non-SMF targets if they manage to receive bring it down).

themandudeperson wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:
Going to Ground can always be overcome by Get Back in the Fight at least.

At which point you won't be able to twin-link it's fire with "Bring It Down!" and it will only match a Hydra's firepower.

... and that's assuming that they pass the get back in the fight order, which is far from guaranteed at Ld7.

Xeriapt wrote:Im tossing up whether it is better to use Hydras or heavy weapons teams for some autocannons.

Both units are the same price, the hydra gets 4 twin-linked shots and the heavy team gets 6 non twin-linked shots (unless an order is used).

In your opinion which would be better?

The hydras are mobile, and will (when you factor in the heavy bolter) generally deliver a greater total quantity of fire to the target, and are ace against skimmers.

The heavy weapon squads can benefit from orders and from cover a lot easier, and are scoring units to boot. That said, they are vulnerable to ID from S6+ weapons and one S6 wound means you're talking a Morale test on Ld7 and easily destroyed by small arms fire regardless. They're also static and even the piddliest opponents can engage and destroy them in CC. Dawn of War royally pooches them, and they need to be Ld/Orders babysat to function effectively.

All in all the Hydra is a superior choice, plus it's a cool (if annoying to build) model.

It does seem like the Hydra would be a better choice, being immune to small arms fire, being able to move and fire and not needing an order to make it twin-linked.

I do however really want the HWS to be useable.

Perhaps I should ask "If taking a HWS, which weapon loadout works best for them?"

Hydra also has a longer range. Not that big a deal across a table but corner to diagonal corner will (or larger tables).

Those aren't JUST autocannons. They are hydra autocannons.

Vaktathi wrote:Dawn of War royally pooches them, and they need to be Ld/Orders babysat to function effectively.

New FAQ fixes the DoW issue.

Do weapon teams get ID ? I thought they where on the same base for convience fo the model, but still counted as two seperate wounds?

Because if thats in the rulebook for Guard, what happens to all the folks who have modelled their Missile and Mortar Heavy weapon teams on seperate bases?

No, you can't ID the entire base. They're treated as 2 models, just modeled on one base. So one can die and the other will survive.

Aye, thats what I thought. Just checking as I guy mentioned it above, and no one pointed out that was wrong.

*wipes brow*

"A heavy weapons team counts as two models for the purposes of transport capacity but otherwise is treated as a single model." pg29 IG codex.

You can ID them I believe.

Well that was a strange change from the previous Guard book, considering loads of Guard players still have the two seperate guard models for their teams, either via conversion, or using older models.

I think having the 2 bases would be fine, its just you would take both off if ID'd or just killed outright.

Aye, I can see why folks are having doubts on their effectiviness though.

Hell of a change from needing to take three hits before you could loose a heavy weapon, to three shots could wipe out the whole squad.

Autocannons are a lot easier to hide than a hydra, meaning youc an use fire lanes to cut down what can actually shoot them.

Autocannon arent that great at killing light transports? Wrong, theyre the most point efficient way of killing AV10 - 12 in the guard codex....

Doesnt eh CCS get a reroll panic checks banner? rerolled Ld7 > Ld9 reliability

Yeah Ill be taking the re-roll banner in my CCS.

Its worth the small pts cost Id say.

Maybe I should just stick with my 4 HWS with autocannons lol.

Xeriapt wrote:It does seem like the Hydra would be a better choice, being immune to small arms fire, being able to move and fire and not needing an order to make it twin-linked.

I do however really want the HWS to be useable.

Perhaps I should ask "If taking a HWS, which weapon loadout works best for them?"

Some people like HWTs with mortars. But they are regulated to light-infantry work. The bonuses with mortars being they can fire indirectly from behind LOS blocking cover and still count as scoring, so you can set them on an objective in/near your deployment area and pelt the enemy without much worry of return fire. It helps mitigate their frailty being out of sight. They're also cheaper that way.

Friend has a very fun IG list involving 3 mortar squads - teyre dirt cheap, scoring and once you break a vehicle open the number of shots you can drop on a squad is brutal. Even termis dont like that numebr of shots landing on them!