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One of my friends plays chaos daemons and he seems convinced that there is no way for him to fight AV 14, the other friend almost always fields 2 land raiders. Any ideas on what he could get that would actually help him?

Soul Grinders with tongue upgrade are ok-ish.

Bloodthirster CCing a LR is pretty effective. Screamers CCing is also fun

Daemons generally are better at breaking AV 14 up close than at range, much like orks.

Assault it with monstrous creatures.

Ive suggested he assault it with MCs but he claims none of his have a good chance of relly hurting it. I asked about the screamers but he doesnt believe theres any way they will survive long enough to get to CC since they have to deep strike and wont be able to attack the first turn.

Pretty much the best way is screamers/Bloodthirster with unholy power upgrade.

shooting wise, not much daemons have to pen AV 14. In fact, I think that's the whole point of AV14, anyways, onto options:

Breath of chaos - 4+ auto glance = 50% chance and vs LR, you have 1/6 chance to immobilize, 1/6 weapon destroy, and then just shaken/stun the rest which doesn't really do that much.

If you got a squad of 4 flamers for example, you can probably guess 2 glances and really just make it can't shoot everything though it will always have PotMS
140 points for 4 flamers. 420 for 12 but that's really overkill. 6 for 210 matches the LR costs kind of close. = 3 glances


Screamers = 4's to hit, 6's if cruising, so 50% miss or worse. melta bomb = str 8+2D6 (average around 7) so average 50% glance hit. As it is a grenade hit, you will still just get one attack even on the charge but you do have a decent chance to pen so it's actually one of your better options if you can get in about 4-5 of them. Also since they are jetbikes, you are looking at an 18' charge which isn't bad and even if you mishap, you can still go flat out 24' to make it into place.
at 16 points a pop, you are looking at 192 points for 12 of them. = roughly 3 glance/pens on a charge (with combat movement for the LR) on average.


Bloodthirster with might + furious charge = str 9, and it's MC so 2d6 = average chance of 9+6 = 15 50% pen rate. with 6 attacks on the charge, you got a good shot at some 1- 2 pens with a combat moving LR. that's a 250 point model to take down a 250 point ish tank.

Fiends are actually a possibility as well with 30 points each x6 = 180 points to dump some 36 attacks, say half hit = 18 hits, say 1/6 for rending = 3 rend
5+6 = 11 + 1d3 = 1 glance out of those 3 rends. This is probably the worst one for the bunch but it is possible is all I'm saying.

Frankly mathhammerish wise, your best point/point ratio would still be to use screamers despite just T4 just cause they are so cheap to grab a bunch. a blood thirster is probably runner up. Skarbrand maybe tied at #2 but mostly #3 just because he costs more than the target and can inadvertently give bonuses to your enemy., flamers are a viable choice at #4, and then fiends if you just have nothing else to try.


Edited 6 into 7 cause I forgot to factor XD

On fiends: The S6 upgraded fiend can actually pen a LR, sure its not very good odds but the CAN do it (1/6*1/3 odds per attack, 6 attacks) 1/3 odds per combat isn't bad for pen AV 14, but once you factor movement in and the roll for which damage result its pretty bad.

MCs for Chaos is the most versatile option, as its very likely that you can have multiple bolt princes (relatively cheap after all, and can cause a glance kill- 5/6*1/6*1/6) and they can do reasonably well vs AV14 in cc if you can catch it (unlikely to have wings in a daemon list, and the movement penalty to hit them hurts).

The real problem with LRs for daemons is the cargo. If its troops inside daemons just won't be able to win objective games. If its a good assault squad, its probably TH/SS guys so they do a number on our PW or MC attacks with their 3++. The actual firepower of the LR isn't spectacular, unless you are running a heavy number of bloodletters or daemonettes and they are using a LRC or LRR.

Against AV 14 that isn't a LR/monolith the rear armor comes into play and daemons just chew up rear 10/11 like it wasn't there.

The LR itself is largely irrelevant to Daemons. Unless it is the Redeemer variant which can put down some significant damage.

This brings the first question, what is he putting inside the Land Raider?

As for wrecking them, Screamers are very effective, they also count as Jet Bikes so you can DS far away, Turboboost the next turn and then 12" move and assault into the LR, if the LR wants to attempt to take down the screamers with its cargo that is great because you got what you really wanted...exposed cargo.

I have also used SG with Tongue or on the charge. Skarbrand is also really useful against vehicles, enabling you to re-roll the hits assaulting them.

When I have played against LR's I have usually ignored them until I am close enough to charge them. A pair of daemon princes, or a single Bloodthirster will usually take care of it.

Seems like the options have been pretty well covered.

Xeriapt wrote:Seems like the options have been pretty well covered.

Believe me I appreciate it very much.

calypso2ts wrote:The LR itself is largely irrelevant to Daemons. Unless it is the Redeemer variant which can put down some significant damage.

This brings the first question, what is he putting inside the Land Raider?

As for wrecking them, Screamers are very effective, they also count as Jet Bikes so you can DS far away, Turboboost the next turn and then 12" move and assault into the LR, if the LR wants to attempt to take down the screamers with its cargo that is great because you got what you really wanted...exposed cargo.

I have also used SG with Tongue or on the charge. Skarbrand is also really useful against vehicles, enabling you to re-roll the hits assaulting them.

My friend with the land raider is playing Chaos Space Marines, he usually has the land raider full of khorne berzerkers and kharn. He uses the land raiders because he knows that his rhinos will blow up the first turn otherwise(or at least he believes they will) because his apponents field allot of anti tank weapons(because he fields land raiders, which causes him to field more land raiders). Occasionally I field monoliths as well but it's pretty easy for the screamers to get them cause they can't move more than 6' in a turn with very short range weapons, though a failed attack by screamers could mean that they get sucked up by the monolith.

sudojoe wrote:shooting wise, not much daemons have to pen AV 14. In fact, I think that's the whole point of AV14, anyways, onto options:

Breath of chaos - 4+ auto glance = 50% chance and vs LR, you have 1/6 chance to immobilize, 1/6 weapon destroy, and then just shaken/stun the rest which doesn't really do that much.

If you got a squad of 4 flamers for example, you can probably guess 2 glances and really just make it can't shoot everything though it will always have PotMS
140 points for 4 flamers. 420 for 12 but that's really overkill. 6 for 210 matches the LR costs kind of close. = 3 glances


Screamers = 4's to hit, 6's if cruising, so 50% miss or worse. melta bomb = str 8+2D6 (average around 6) so average 50% glance hit. As it is a grenade hit, you will still just get one attack even on the charge but you do have a decent chance to pen so it's actually one of your better options if you can get in about 4-5 of them. Also since they are jetbikes, you are looking at an 18' charge which isn't bad and even if you mishap, you can still go flat out 24' to make it into place.
at 16 points a pop, you are looking at 192 points for 12 of them. = roughly 3 glance/pens on a charge (with combat movement for the LR) on average.


Bloodthirster with might + furious charge = str 9, and it's MC so 2d6 = average chance of 9+6 = 15 50% pen rate. with 6 attacks on the charge, you got a good shot at some 1- 2 pens with a combat moving LR. that's a 250 point model to take down a 250 point ish tank.

Fiends are actually a possibility as well with 30 points each x6 = 180 points to dump some 36 attacks, say half hit = 18 hits, say 1/6 for rending = 3 rend
5+6 = 11 + 1d3 = 1 glance out of those 3 rends. This is probably the worst one for the bunch but it is possible is all I'm saying.

Frankly mathhammerish wise, your best point/point ratio would still be to use screamers despite just T4 just cause they are so cheap to grab a bunch. a blood thirster is probably runner up. Skarbrand maybe tied at #2 but mostly #3 just because he costs more than the target and can inadvertently give bonuses to your enemy., flamers are a viable choice at #4, and then fiends if you just have nothing else to try.

This is a good post but I just want to point out that the average (and most common) value when rolling 2d6 is 7 and not 6.

Seems people missed the Khorne herald on a chariot with Unholy might and fury, str 7 on the charge with rending, its a bit of a stretch but do-able.

Definitely go with the Screamer wall then, if he wants to Tank Shock through them, DoG it (good chance to take it down and for 16 points who cares!)

Your best bet is a bloodthirster with the str upgrade, at least in an all comers list.