Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, I have about every daemon ever made. What is the best first wave you can think of? Please include the unit and number in each. I need to make a viable 2k list

I have available in my army

50x Bloodletters
27x Daemonettes
23x Plaguebearers
30x Pink horrors
1x Changeling
9x Flamers
10x Crushers
8x Beasts of Nurgle
2x Nurgle Princes
2x Lords of Change (fateweaver)
2x Keeper of Secrets
11x Fiends
18x Nurglings
1x Skulltaker
1x Masque
4x Souulgrinders
1x Herald of Nurgle on Charoit
1x Epidemus

I know that crushers and plagues are a good first wave, but usually theyre the only things on the table and get the full force of the enemy and end up dying.

OK, so if you're being shot up before you can assault, wht not go for ashooty first wave? That way, at least you can do something on the first turn..something like..

3x 8 Pink Horrors with Bolt (1 with Changeling)
2x3 Flamers
Grinder x2

would be a good start IMO. I left slots open for more assault-y choices (i mean, you could just drop 6x5 Horrors and 3x3 flamers if you wanted..but thats all your troops and elites used up..).Let the shooty units soften stuff up before dropping choppier units (3x15 Bloodletters with Skulltaker, 4 crushers, 2x12 Deamonettes, 5 fiends, your choice really..) to clean up.

good lordy that's alot of daemons lol.

Personally I perfer my first wave to be my most effective unitsbased on the type of list I'm building. If you are going for a crusher list, obvious choice is the crushers and fateweaver. I'd DS them slightly far away to set up for a turn 2 charge.

Shooty units mixed in like a grinder or prince also works well. If you see alot of tank heavy metas, I'd probably pop fiends in as well.

some other lessons that's come in handy before has been times when I've really had nothing on the field at all and everything I had was locked in combat wierdly enough. There just wasn't anything for people to shoot at which worked well for me.

what kind of things do you see in your local area? or just looking for an all comers?

Also, could you give some units that you really want in the list? Daemons have plenty of effective units but you really need to build around things that you want as a core.

I tend to balance my waves with slightly different tactics for each. For instance I may have shooty princes in my first wave and Tzeentch heralds in my second.

In general I put slightly more durable units in the first wave, but I always save plagues for the second wave. The strategy with that is if I get my preferred way they can land and grab objectives towards the end of the game and if I get my other wave then I can drop them close to the enemy to either provide cover for my lesser daemons or threaten to tie down major shooting units. I also usually put one of my two icons with the plaguebearers so even if they don't have the killing power I can land some devastating units nearby.

My crushers perform a similar role. I run a squad of three with a banner and an instrument. If I get my preferred wave then they land close to the enemy and do a good job of providing cover and drawing fire. There have been plenty of games where my opponent will dedicate all of their firepower to that one squad on the first turn and everything else will go untouched.

There have been plenty of games where my opponent will dedicate all of their firepower to that one squad on the first turn and everything else will go untouched.

Exactly, I always make the opponent make the hard decisions on what to shoot. Last game alone fatewaever took over 40+ shots from 50+ marines and 3x preds. He survived all but the last pred. =[

Do you guys have problems with the DS scatter ever? Seems like its a bit lame that we scatter 2d6 while some BA get 1d6 ...AND assault

xSoulgrinderx wrote:

There have been plenty of games where my opponent will dedicate all of their firepower to that one squad on the first turn and everything else will go untouched.

Exactly, I always make the opponent make the hard decisions on what to shoot. Last game alone fatewaever took over 40+ shots from 50+ marines and 3x preds. He survived all but the last pred. =[

Do you guys have problems with the DS scatter ever? Seems like its a bit lame that we scatter 2d6 while some BA get 1d6 ...AND assault

Only Vanguard Vets get Heroic Intervention, for assaulting, and they are not cheap.

Lots of horrors in squads of ten work quite well for the first wave if deployed near the enemy and just start blasting away. You could unleash 90 S4 AP4 shots at three different targets. That's pretty good, but if you throw in a phlegm soul grinder and a tzeenchtian daemon prince and you have a hell of a lot of fire power to direct on the foe on the first turn!

I really like a first wave with...

Fateweaver
8x Crushers - Full Command
8x Crushers - Full Command
6x Fiends

12x Seekers

Two units to DS further away and assault. 2 units ready to pound in on Turn 1. From your list it appears you might need to knock it down to 2 units of 5 crushers, which is still good and can absorb a surprising amount of firepower.

A lot does depend on your entire list, I generally tend to play fast units that can DS ~13"-18" from the enemy and still move into assault.

It's too bad pavane wasn't quite as good as lash. That way you could ds out further, run and then bring them to you into charge range. lol

calypso2ts wrote:I really like a first wave with...

Fateweaver
8x Crushers - Full Command
8x Crushers - Full Command
6x Fiends

12x Seekers

Two units to DS further away and assault. 2 units ready to pound in on Turn 1. From your list it appears you might need to knock it down to 2 units of 5 crushers, which is still good and can absorb a surprising amount of firepower.

A lot does depend on your entire list, I generally tend to play fast units that can DS ~13"-18" from the enemy and still move into assault.

Could you explain that one a bit calypso2ts? I'm just seeing fateweaver able to do anything turn 1 with shooting in that list. What else are you pounding them with the 2nd option on turn 1?

You are precisely correct, Fate is the only one who can shoot turn 1. At the end of the day though, Daemon shoot is pretty terrible. Your options are...

Grinder - 160 point Rail gun @ BS 3
DP/LoC - 160 point Exorcist Missile @ BS 5
Herald - 100 point Exorcist Missile @ BS 4
Horrors - 95 point Exorcist missile @ BS 3

Even with a fully shooty first wave, you may get 5 or 6 total shots if you max out, but there is really no assault backup to come in next.

Loading durable, powerful assault elements into the first wave with some speed forces the enemy to move their vehicles 12" so you hit on 6's, move 6" (which is good for you!) to fire a couple from the top hatch or get out and try to pour their army into you. With Fate, that many crushers and a longer range threat in the Fiends none of those plans are particularly good for your opponent. If Fate can dismount a unit that is great too, but most your shooting/troops can come down in the second wave to try for a few pot shots.

Finally, it seems to me like you end up doing more running than shooting Turn 1 in fate lists to get people into Fate's bubble.

From my perspective I might run 2x Tzeetch Heralds in liu of the Seekers in the first wave, but you do not have any listed above...actually now that I double check you do not have any seekers either!

Also, kudos for using the Masque I actually really like her and I find her to be really useful in puling forward that one unit an extra few inches to initiate a multi assault or to expose a unit in cover.

I've only ever run mono-Tzeentch, so my experience is somewhat limited for the wider list.

Eventually, I found that putting down units that can have an impact on the battle quickly and massively worked best for me.

For reference, my usual 1500 list was

- LoC (Bolt/Gaze/Wind)
- 3x3 Flamers
- 3x9 Horrors
- 2xDP (with Bolt)

The first wave was always the LoC, DPs and 2xHorrors. These units possess powerful ranged atttacks with fairly good range, and are surprisingly hard to kill.

The LoC/DPs put out three BS5 Bolts, which absolutely had to be directed at enemy armour from the moment they arrive (since this is the one thing the list otherwise struggles with). Aggressive deployment for shots into the rear of enemy armour, and a mass of Warpfire to melt away exposed infantry seemed to be the best strategy.

The Flamers come later, and use their extremely good mobility to bring their templates to bear where they can inflict maximum damage. They aren't resilient nor long-ranged enough for deployment in the first wave. The last Horror unit I always held back as long as possible as an objective camper.

If Tzeentch was feeling cruel, and I got my Flamer wave first, things had to shift enormously. This normally involved placing the Flamers out of sight and harm if possible, and the firt few turns often ffelt like can and mouse.

So as for what makes a good first wave? I woud say things thatt have an impact right away, and preferably things that are going to withstand incoming fire. Basically, things with reasonable ranged attacks, and monsters/Soulgrinders.

I usually put all the scary stuff in the preffered wave, you dont always get it, but Daemons have their risks.

Scary stuff would include things like flamers to suicide bomb and wipe squads, Tzeentch/Khorne heralds on chariots, princes, Crushers or Greater Daemons.

Usually people go "Ahhh what do I shoot?!!" And choose the wrong thing to kill first.

I hate relying on my opponent to make poor decisions as a strategy, it works okay against players you would beat anyway, but it puts you in a bad position when facing a skilled opponent.

IMO it is rare that flamers should make a Turn 1 appearance on purpose. I might do it if there was an exceptionally appetizing target (maybe 10 grouped up terminators or something appropriately expensive) but otherwise they are best coming down off an icon or taking advantage of units that have been extracted from their Bawkses.

I have not ever run mono tzeetch, but if I did I think I would definitely have Fate in there (a LoC with breath and we are legion is almost/if not more expensive off the top of my head). I would also try to work in the Blue Scribes for flavor reasons and they can provide a little extra bump for a Horror squad.

Balanced waves are key. No reason to face an even more uphill battle 33% of the time.

As for modern Daemon armies, you need bolts. Each wave should have a decent amount of them. Transport popping is critical. I love Fiends and Seekers for CC.

Mono-Tzeentch I think is the stongest mono list, just because its able to kill vehicles better.

Iv only ever used fateweaver once, hes just too many pts.

Usually I'll go 4 heralds, 2 on chariots and 2 on foot, usually a mix of the 2 in each wave with some horror squads in each wave also.


I used to do balanced waves all the time with an icon in each but now I just stack up wave 1 and dont use icons, daemons are more fun to play when you take risks than if you just play it safe.

Waves need to be balanced not by splitting them into equivalent parts, but in splitting them into synergistic parts. For example, Soul Grinders should be put in the same wave, not split among two waves. The same goes for a pair of crusher units who are much better together than they are individually.

I tend to group my units based on intent.

#1 is the powerhouse big survival units like fate and crusher with fiends (if I get this, I get fairly aggressive and in the enemy face)

#2 is usually troops and any extra fast units (if I get this one first, I'd just Deep strike them far away from the enemy and hide trying to use TLOS to hide 5 plague bearer. I'm also entertaining nurglings as they are swarm, and shorter so can hide even better with some cover)

Fatecrusher lists are alwasy strong. And I agree that Flamers shouldnt ever make a first turn appearance unless there's a tasty unit like nobs or termies or geanstealers where their templates can get the most pts.

What size crusher units do you usually run? I usually run2x units of 4 with full command but ive had suggestions to run 8 with full command. It just seems like a bigger target while if you have 2x units they have to divide fire, but it takes up an elites slot that could other wise be used for flamers...

xSoulgrinderx wrote:Fatecrusher lists are alwasy strong. And I agree that Flamers shouldnt ever make a first turn appearance unless there's a tasty unit like nobs or termies or geanstealers where their templates can get the most pts.

What size crusher units do you usually run? I usually run2x units of 4 with full command but ive had suggestions to run 8 with full command. It just seems like a bigger target while if you have 2x units they have to divide fire, but it takes up an elites slot that could other wise be used for flamers...

I wouldn't use Flamers vs nobs for the most part because of wound allocation BS and the fact they get a 5++ & FnP. Much rather assault the buggers with some power toy totting khorne units and/or dropping a S8 pie-plate on them for the instant death goodness! Once you remove that FnP roll, they're only as resiliant as our own units and will die in droves.

When I run my mono Tzeentch list, I like to put 1 of my 3 Flamer units into the first wave, just for the alpha strike capability. There's almost always at least one really juicy target like long fangs or sang guard or termies or some such to pick on. And even if there's only metal bawkses, that's an easy'ish shot at 3 auto-glances on a 4+ which can at least supress some firepower for a turn. (against parking lot guard, with a lucky drop I can hit a couple tanks, while a kan wall is just asking for it!)

I've never tried running a full 8 crushers myself - all the tables at the LGS are only 6'x4' so that footprint just seems like far too much of a risk with a 350'ish pts squad!

Experiment 626 wrote:

xSoulgrinderx wrote:Fatecrusher lists are alwasy strong. And I agree that Flamers shouldnt ever make a first turn appearance unless there's a tasty unit like nobs or termies or geanstealers where their templates can get the most pts.

What size crusher units do you usually run? I usually run2x units of 4 with full command but ive had suggestions to run 8 with full command. It just seems like a bigger target while if you have 2x units they have to divide fire, but it takes up an elites slot that could other wise be used for flamers...

I wouldn't use Flamers vs nobs for the most part because of wound allocation BS and the fact they get a 5++ & FnP. Much rather assault the buggers with some power toy totting khorne units and/or dropping a S8 pie-plate on them for the instant death goodness! Once you remove that FnP roll, they're only as resiliant as our own units and will die in droves.

When I run my mono Tzeentch list, I like to put 1 of my 3 Flamer units into the first wave, just for the alpha strike capability. There's almost always at least one really juicy target like long fangs or sang guard or termies or some such to pick on. And even if there's only metal bawkses, that's an easy'ish shot at 3 auto-glances on a 4+ which can at least supress some firepower for a turn. (against parking lot guard, with a lucky drop I can hit a couple tanks, while a kan wall is just asking for it!)

I've never tried running a full 8 crushers myself - all the tables at the LGS are only 6'x4' so that footprint just seems like far too much of a risk with a 350'ish pts squad!

Flamers will still do quite a bit of dmg to the nobs but yeah you prb wont do enough dmg because they are 2 wounds. They wont be getting FnP though, breath of Chaos ignores armour saves.

The problem with Nurglings is they cannot capture objectives, so unless you use them as a screen they are pretty useless (maybe a bad tarpit as well?).

A smart opponent will focus your crusher unit until its dead anyway, so there is not really an actual divide fire choice you force on your opponent by running 2 4's. I would rather throw 8x down as my first DS, get them pretty close with running and the footprint (and probably in cover) and then drop a faster unit behind.

They also anchor an icon really well close to the enemy and typically it is tough to actually focus an entire army on them with LoS blocking and being in range. Even when focus fired 16 T5 wounds with a 3+ save are pretty hard to take down.

Flamers hitting a unit of nobs, even with diversification, can be brutal. If you can generate 6-8 wounds it will leave just about every model with a wound and obligate them to take down the flamers or let your other units actually eliminate models in CC with their attacks to reduce the incoming number.

Xeriapt wrote:
Flamers will still do quite a bit of dmg to the nobs but yeah you prb wont do enough dmg because they are 2 wounds. They wont be getting FnP though, breath of Chaos ignores armour saves.

Breath has no ap and is not an instant death attack, thus the nobs will get their FnP saves.
I know the damage potential is huge with even just 3 Flamers if you can get those nobs all bunched up, but I guess I'm just really unlucky trying to burny-solve them. Typically I'll cause a little under half the hits as wounds, and then my opponent will save all but 2-3 wounds with his 5++/FnP.

Now, charging 16 bloodletters into those nobs? THAT works wonders!
Usually I'll feed the nobs a squad of 9 pinkies who will hold them up for a at least a couple of combat phases - long enough for the 'letters to come down and then charge in the following turn. I like sending 'letters after deathstars honestly. They're decently cheap and damn hitty so even if/when I lose them, that much more expensive deathstar is pretty much a non-factor by the time those bloodletters have bought the farm.

Against the masses of GK's though, fiends & seekers all the way! At least they strike at the same time as those stupidly under-costed halberds!

Against the masses of GK's though, fiends & seekers all the way! At least they strike at the same time as those stupidly under-costed halberds!

only the seekers will hit at the same time. Fiends are I5 so will be after the halberds but at least you can threaten them from really far away.

And yep, I screwed it up, forgot swarms can't capture anything.

Also, how about the in-between choice of 6 blood crushers in a unit? slightly cheaper and slightly less footprint and fairly decent with toughness?

(my initial wave is essentially fate + crushers 6x2 + fiends x6, 2nd wave is plaguebearers 5x2, tzeentch heralds on chariots x2)

at higher points levels, I'll be tossing in some daemon princes and probably extra troops here and there if I get the models )

Experiment 626 wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:
Flamers will still do quite a bit of dmg to the nobs but yeah you prb wont do enough dmg because they are 2 wounds. They wont be getting FnP though, breath of Chaos ignores armour saves.

Breath has no ap and is not an instant death attack, thus the nobs will get their FnP saves.
I know the damage potential is huge with even just 3 Flamers if you can get those nobs all bunched up, but I guess I'm just really unlucky trying to burny-solve them. Typically I'll cause a little under half the hits as wounds, and then my opponent will save all but 2-3 wounds with his 5++/FnP.

FnP
Pg 75 of the rulebook "... Neither can it be used against wounds from ap 1 and ap 2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken..."

Breath of Chaos
Chaos Daemons pg 73 "...wound on a 4+, with no armour or cover saves allowed..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:

Against the masses of GK's though, fiends & seekers all the way! At least they strike at the same time as those stupidly under-costed halberds!

only the seekers will hit at the same time. Fiends are I5 so will be after the halberds but at least you can threaten them from really far away.

And yep, I screwed it up, forgot swarms can't capture anything.

Also, how about the in-between choice of 6 blood crushers in a unit? slightly cheaper and slightly less footprint and fairly decent with toughness?

(my initial wave is essentially fate + crushers 6x2 + fiends x6, 2nd wave is plaguebearers 5x2, tzeentch heralds on chariots x2)

at higher points levels, I'll be tossing in some daemon princes and probably extra troops here and there if I get the models )

Id be interested to see the models you use for the Tzeentch Chariots.

I agree, Im working on making the blue scribes and need some ideas for charoits

I use a generic chariot from fantasy model. I mag on an icon for whatever faction it belongs to.



Yes I know it's supposed to be screamers but I just like the fantasy chaos horses too much. Who says tzeentch can't make them look like horses? He's the changer of ways!

lol you can make your chariot anything, whether its horses or screamers probably doesnt matter.

Plague bearers with Icons, at least 2 squads. I would drop all 23 of your plague bearers on the 1st wave.

Against a really powerful shooting army place objectives in area terrain. Then deep strike close enough to the terrain that a run move will put you in. If worse comes to worse plague bearers can always go to ground and the Icon still works. It's really difficult for any army to shoot plague bearers off an objective if they are in cover.

Frell, I meant disks. I need disk ideas for my blue scribes to fly on. I was going to use screamers to pull the disk regardless, just need to find some way to make a custom disk ot tzeentch


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I just finished a game against the necrons today.
Heres my list and the tactica I used.

The results were this...
-Necrons: Tabled on turn 3: 2 monliths, 6 wraith, Nightbringer, some strong troops, and several lords
-Daemons: lost 1 fiend and 4 horrors.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fateweaver --------------------------------Antitank
Masque -------------------------------------Antitank/ Tactical
Blue Scribes-------------------------------Anti-everything/ Tactical

6x Fiends - might-------------------------Anti-everything
6x Crushers - Full command -------- Anti-everything
3x Flamers---------------------------------Anti-horde

7x Horrors - bolt , Changeling --------Anti-everything/ Tactical
7x Horrors - bolt --------------------------Anti-everything
7x Horrors - bolt --------------------------Anti-everything
7x Horrors - bolt --------------------------Anti-everything

2x Grinders - Phlegm, Phlegm ------Anti-everything

TOTAL 1989

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The first wave would look like this.....

Fate
Crushers
Fiends
Scribes
Masque
1x Grinder

I ended up using the masque and the scribes to dance the Nightbringer and Wraiths back towards his edge. That gave me a turn or two to get things going and a huge tactical advantage, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! Second wave was the troops, flamers and the last grinder.. The grinders are split up for a reason, once the second or third turn comes around the enemy will have moved a bit to accommodate my other units, leaving gaps that I would be able to DS into. Its risky but its does wonders.