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So for a long time I have entertained the idea of doing a pure 1000 sons CSM army. I mean only kson cult troops, tzeentch princes and sorcerers, etc. I was wondering if anyone had ever tried this and had success with it? I want to do it for fluff and painting reasons, but I would also like to know what they are capable of table wise.
Any thoughts, ideas, or experience would be greatly appreciated!

They would wreck against most Space Marine armies with their "hey MEQ! you have no armor" rounds. And they'd be pretty hard to kill with that purdy 4++ army wide. Plus your psykers have decent long range stuff with the Bolt of Change. I think it would work pretty well. Just keep your enemy at a distance for as long as possible, but even if they get close, you can rapid fire into them, and you STILL have 4++

I play this list, run the 3x9 sons in Rhinos to negate S&R and then use 2 vindicators and 1 defiler to get some anti-armor. For HQs, either deepstrike a sorcerer with termies or 2 demon princes. It's reall balanced and dumps like a truck.

Those were my thoughts exactly. I was going to try starting out at 1000 points with something like 2x9 in transports with one HQ and a Heavy Support. I really like the look of the army and have always been excited about the converting opportunities that come along with a chaos army. Do the !000 sons have any clout in the combat phase at all (other than their staying power)

lizardwolf19 wrote:Those were my thoughts exactly. I was going to try starting out at 1000 points with something like 2x9 in transports with one HQ and a Heavy Support. I really like the look of the army and have always been excited about the converting opportunities that come along with a chaos army. Do the !000 sons have any clout in the combat phase at all (other than their staying power)

Not really. You can give your sorcerer Warptime, but it's use is highly limited. They are still great though because they are still Space Marines in CC, plus they have the 4++

It is possible to cover all target types with just tzeentch units, therefore it is possible to make a viable 1ksons list. Tzeentch uints give you a lot of bang, but also cost a lot of bucks. Unless you are able to really take advantage of what they have to offer, they're basically just expensive marines.

If you CAN, though, there's a lot you can do with them.

Vs deathwing it's not so great... It's light on anti tank.

They will do quite poorly against horde armies that don't rely on armour saves, such as Orkz, however, because at that point, the advantages provided by the Thousand Sons are wasted, and they still cost quite a bit while keeping their standard set of weaknesses as well.

In short - Yes.

In long - Yes, but they have some glaring flaws.

They can handle MEQ and Mech lists pretty well. Not as well as some of the min-maxed builds out there, but they can hold their own pretty damn well. Against horde and TEQ armies though, they are at a severe disadvantage. They can't force enough dice rolls, and don't have access to enough AP 2 weaponry to deal with army-wide 2+ saves.

Not that they can't win, but you will be at a disadvantage. It's a challenging list, but one that is perfectly viable.

Currently helping a buddy of mine get into the game, and he's heart set on a 1k sons army, so I've been writing and reviewing lots of Tzeentch based CSM lists lately.

What fafnir said. If everyone and their dog plays marines at your store, you're eligible to utter an evil cackle and proside to wreck face in the name of the lord of change. But if everyone is playing orks and nids and horde gaurd, well, sucks for you. I would assume that you could take some large blast heavy supports to fight off hordes, so defilers, or vindicators, if chaos gets those. Forgive me, I only have one chaos player in my area, and while he switches up his troops a lot, his heavy support is always oblitz, so i wouldn't know.

A pure 1k Son list? No. Thousand Sons have no close combat skill and very little ability to open transports. The best way to capitalize on their AP3 bolters is by getting maximum range with a Rhino. A 12" move, 2" disembark and 24" range can catch units out of cover or otherwise vulnerable.

Thousand Sons also have this really strange close combat effectiveness against the most elite targets in the game. Try to steal the charge, then begin turning their members into Spawn with Gift of Chaos. You can cast it twice per turn.

I'd recommend no more than a single Thousand Son squad. Use Chaos Marines with Meltaguns otherwise, and Possessed with IoT or Lesser Daemons. Greaters Daemons are out however, because it will never be cost effective to sacrifice a 70+ point Sorcerer.

Lokas wrote:They can handle MEQ and Mech lists pretty well.... but they can hold their own pretty damn well. Against horde and TEQ armies though.

But you can't make the mistake that so many people make of looking at 1ksons and seeing nothing but marines with AP3 bolters.

Power blobs, for example, would be screwed by a tzeentch list. The power blob's power weapons will desperately struggle to stick wounds on 1ksons' T4 models with a 4++ save, and the 1ksons only need to last long enough for a sorcerer of some type (perhaps one in the squad) to use gifts on the commissar, and the blob is done. Likewise, a klaw is half as effective, and interesting things happen to hurt boyz squads when they lose their bosspole.

Yeah, a list with ONLY 1ksons and a tzeentch-themed HQ would be a bit of a struggle, but a theentch-themed army with 1ksons as your only troops choice backed up by some predetors or havocs or rubric termies wouldn't be that bad.

I know it would be more effective to mix units, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of going with a pure 1000 sons army... There's a fair mix of armies at my FLGS (lots of space wolves.. which is why I'm considering trading mine for 1000 sons - love the irony ) I'm ok with winning some and losing some, and i'm sure there are some ways to conquer TEQ and horde armies... "difficult, but not insurmountable"

Ailaros wrote:But you can't make the mistake that so many people make of looking at 1ksons and seeing nothing but marines with AP3 bolters.

Power blobs, for example, would be screwed by a tzeentch list. The power blob's power weapons will desperately struggle to stick wounds on 1ksons' T4 models with a 4++ save, and the 1ksons only need to last long enough for a sorcerer of some type (perhaps one in the squad) to use gifts on the commissar, and the blob is done. Likewise, a klaw is half as effective, and interesting things happen to hurt boyz squads when they lose their bosspole.

Yeah, a list with ONLY 1ksons and a tzeentch-themed HQ would be a bit of a struggle, but a theentch-themed army with 1ksons as your only troops choice backed up by some predetors or havocs or rubric termies wouldn't be that bad.

You're very right.

The list I worked on with a friend had a lot of support from Obliterators, which he's modelling as master sorcerers (their variety of weapons will be like a sorcerer's menagerie of spells) and a daemon prince HQ. I've also heard of people doing well with a Chaos Lord with Mark of Tzeentch and a Daemon Weapon.

I hadn't thought of any of those factors, and they all make a heck of a lot of sense. The 4++ will also take the teeth out of genestealers rending and the like. The more I think about this army the more excited I get to use it. Again, I was thinking vindicators for heavy support, because I'd heard that Obliterators didn't fit into KSons fluff. The Master Sorcerer idea sounds pretty interesting though, and a fun conversion challenge!

Start with the army list, maxing out on the fluffy essentials you want, e.g. K Son troops, tzeentch princes and sorcerers.

Then work out what other units you need to balance the army (e.g. Vindicators and Obliterators have been mentioned), picking from anywhere else in the codex (even other chaos powers).

Then you can have lots of fun designing conversions to make Tzeentchy counts-as equivalents for the nonstandard units - could be as simple as hovering trackless vindicators to Spawn-like daemonic creatures with long range weapons that count-as Obliterators. Tzeentch is all about mutation, so you can get away with lots of freaky-looking stuff. So long as all models are the right size and are fairly obviously armed and armoured correctly, few opponents will complain.

"Thousand Sons have no close combat skill and very little ability to open transports."

This is just so wrong haha, I just played a game where my Thousand-Sons slaughtered genestealers (one of the better cc units in the game). Thousand sons are so underestimated. You have an invul which allows you to soak so much, a FORCE WEAPON in the squad, and with a defiler and some vindicators you have great anti-armor. The anti-armor can also come from Bolt of Change or deepstriking Demon Princes or Terminators.

There are very good ways to run pure Thousand Sons, don't let people tell you otherwise.

Ixidor13 wrote:

"Thousand Sons have no close combat skill and very little ability to open transports."

This is just so wrong haha, I just played a game where my Thousand-Sons slaughtered genestealers (one of the better cc units in the game). Thousand sons are so underestimated. You have an invul which allows you to soak so much, a FORCE WEAPON in the squad, and with a defiler and some vindicators you have great anti-armor. The anti-armor can also come from Bolt of Change or deepstriking Demon Princes or Terminators.

There are very good ways to run pure Thousand Sons, don't let people tell you otherwise.

No, you're a fool who got lucky. Run the numbers: 10 Gene-stealers assaulting 9 Thousand Sons will win in 3 turns. A Force Weapon inflicts only .75 wounds each round of combat, and the damage of each Thousand Son is utterly negligible. The Stealers kill 3 Sons a turn to the Sons' 1. It's pretty damn one sided, and there are very few variables that change that outcome.

About a month ago I had an Imperial Guard Priest and some Conscripts assault Kharn leading some Khorne Berserkers. The Conscripts traded blows, escaped being swept, regrouped, assaulted again, escaped being swept, then assaulted and ended with the Priest killing Kharn in single combat. Weird gak happens in this game. It's nothing to formulate a strategy around.

I'm not saying to rely on it, but you can't knock MEQ in close combat, especially MEQ with invul saves.

Define Viable please.

Viable amongst your mates? Viable at the FLGS? Viable at the tournaments at the FLGS? Viable at state/national competitions?


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Ixidor13 wrote:I'm not saying to rely on it, but you can't knock MEQ in close combat, especially MEQ with invul saves.

things like the boys say otherwise, or a powerblob. You might get a save vs the P.weaps, but the flurry of bayonets treats you like any other marine.
Having said that- I feel you have a nugget of truth there. I think people massively underestimate MEQ's in combat, from the basic tac marine to even specialists like 'zerkers. Then again I think I'm more right about the former than the latter

I agree that even Tacticals can surprise. Bolt pistols are damned handy, and getting past 3+ without a charge bonus is hard. Thousand Sons, however, are Slow and Purposeful, so will rarely steal the charge. Then, due to SnP rules and their lack of grenades, will always strike at I1 when engaging the assault. You're always better off with the extra bolter shot, then taking the charge. That's before you consider Thousand Sons are 50% more expensive per model than Tacticals. At least Tacticals are cheap enough that 10 tarpitting horde can be cost effective. Thousand Sons never have that luxury.

Depends on your definition of a tarpit, doesn't it? If my 1K sons eat a bloodletter charge, my 'zerkers behind them will eat the 'letters. Or if my tac marines survive one round vs that ork mob, I can use combat tactics/ATSKNF to fall back so I can charge in with assault terms/marines, or pour enough firepower into them to finish them off.

I don't think Tarpit is a good term for this, its more slapping some gum over the whole in the deck of a boat. It's not fixed, but if it holds 'till we get to shore, then she'll be right

DarkHound wrote:I agree that even Tacticals can surprise. Bolt pistols are damned handy, and getting past 3+ without a charge bonus is hard. Thousand Sons, however, are Slow and Purposeful, so will rarely steal the charge. Then, due to SnP rules and their lack of grenades, will always strike at I1 when engaging the assault. You're always better off with the extra bolter shot, then taking the charge. That's before you consider Thousand Sons are 50% more expensive per model than Tacticals. At least Tacticals are cheap enough that 10 tarpitting horde can be cost effective. Thousand Sons never have that luxury.

To be fair, Slow & Purposeful means they can fire their bolters and then assault. All of them except the Sorceror will strike at I1 (stupid FAQ, contradicting the rules) but the 2 AP3 Bolter shots and 2 attacks at I1 can put the hurt on. Unless the victim is anything other than foot-slogging basic marines, in which case the Sons will bog down and lose.

I think its very possible to run a pure 1k sons list. First you need to decide what units you consider to be usable fluff wise, since that is ur main goal. I love Clang's ideas, but if thats not wat you want to do i still see no reason why 1k sons wouldn't have tanks and the like, you can put them in rhinos with vindicators and/or dakka preds for anti-armour and anti-horde power, its a mobile army with alot of firepower. U could also throw in 2 Tzeentch DPs w/wings as HQs to add some strong cc monsters, and they still can have some good firepower. alternatively you could go more of a gunline approach, take lots of kult 1k sons troops, giving the sorcerers Bolt of Change for popping transports. Obliterators go perfect with the sons, both relentless and S&P, plus the Oblits got a variety of long range fire power to take out almost anything. in this case i would use ahriman as the only HQ. Finally, add Terminators with MoT, these will be used to engage cc units that are threatening ur 1k sons.

To put it simply, your smallest basic troop choice is 162 points for 5 models (doombolt being the cheapest psychic power, and more realistically you're going to take bolt of change to give you some anti-armour for 177 points).

If you perils while casting you have a 75% chance of your sorcerer dying.

You have 5 wounds protected by a 3+ armour save. Killing them is easy. The 4++ you're paying for is exactly the same as most people get from cover, and AP3 bolters are not really that good when 4+ cover is so plentiful.

Basically Tzeentch is the weakest of the four powers in the Chaos book. You can make a Tzeentch themed list, but against any other army you'll be struggling.

I actually tried a 1k-son army on VASSAL with considerable success. I think I lost only once out of several games.

The problem is, I did this before the warptime-FAQ was released, so the cc-power was indeed underestimated by the most guys.

My list consisted of 2 warptime princes with MoT, 3x9 sons with warptime sorcerer in Rhino, 5 termies with MoT in a Land raider and some lesser daemons + a greater daemon.

After the FAQ I have to be even more cautious in CC than I was before. But the list is very good at focused attacks. If you are swift and offensive, 27 Thousand sons are something to consider. Rapidfire + charge can be devastating. If you get a good timing with the greater daemon, you can get 3x9 marines, 5 termies 2 princes and a daemon into one unit. It is very hard to resist that combined charge.

But I see serious issues against vehicle heavy lists like shooty bloodies with fast vehicles or DE.

Overall I like to play that army (I always like fast and compact elite forces) and it suits me well.
I dont know how high the general success rate is.

I have a buddy that runs a 1ksons list. He's done alright, but there is a couple flaws that really hurt.

First is the anti-tank. If you only use 1ksons troops, you don't have much anti-tank. Bolt of change is expensive, and my buddy finds that he perils his sorceror almost the same amount that he pops a tank. Or he gets hood'ed down and can't fire.

Second is that late game he has a major problem with objectives. Slow and purposeful hurts a lot when you need to move 4 inches to get in range to cap and your dice decide to fail. Limited mobility outside of rhinos makes it even harder for last minute moves.

They can hold up to near anything in assault though. I've seen montrous creatures run up, only kill a couple per turn, then die to the force weapon. They laugh at small elite units too. His squads have held up sanguinary guard charges by making some saves, and then hes fearless so he holds them while a prince rushes in as the hammer.

I also love the MoT termies, as 4++ is almost like storm shields, but they still get to attack at I4.

I'd like to see a 1ksons army with a sprinkling of other things like regular CSM and see how they can perform.