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me.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Most of the worlds the above are from are some of the worst worlds in the IoM.

That's why I chose for my personal regiment to come from a planet as tame as Pyrites, the most dangerous thing there is street/gang violence.
nearly all of the regiment other than vets were former gang members. Veterans were former governor-sanctioned law enforcement before Pyrites began drafting its men into the guard.
The men are more laid back and joke around more than the men of many other regiments, while there is tension between the veterans and other men as they were on opposite sides of the law on their homeworld.
It actually creates a nice character for my fluff.

In all seriousness, out of all of the guard, the Death Korps have absolutely NO FEAR OF DEATH. The most recent IG codex doesn't support this except in fluff text, but it is noted in the Imperial Armour books. They should honestly have the "They Shall Know No Fear" rule about them.

Their entire planet was wiped clean by nuclear fire to extinguish their heresy, and they have no qualms throwing waves upon waves of their soldiers at their enemy, not a single one of them afraid of dying. Zap Brannigan would be their perfect commander, lol, and they would be nigh unstoppable.

I've got a lot of love for Steel Legion too, but you can't deny that the space Wehrmacht is not a force to be reckoned with.

I would say the Catachans, imagine having an army of Rambos on the field.

DKoK. Something about surviving a nuclear war then pretty much stomping on anyone who gets in their way makes me feel all fuzzy.

DKoK were made to be the most badass without a doubt. I do like the vostroyans and steel legions aswell though.

Catachans...think Rambo for all of them...

DKoK, a planet breed pretty much for war, though Catachan's are a close second, then again they have natural eugenics working for them

Steel Legion live on a planet that is constantly under Ork attack, and will remain like this forever. They're normal hive world inhabitants, and their army is only PDF, yet they kick a** just like the full timers from planets like Cadia. They have similar uniforms to Krieg, but are completely mechanised and have lives. They intend to survive and so some of them do, becoming grizzled veterans capable of killing Orks proficiently in hand to hand combat without much if any assistance, and doing this again and again. Alternatively, you have cloned, brainwashed dudes dying by the score (Krieg) to a heavy bolter nest until they eventually make them run out of ammo. If the Death Korps really wanted to repay their debt, then they should consider killing, rather than dying, for the Emporer, as driving up to enemy trenches, disembarking and using flame weapons and their skills at close quarters fighting is more effective than running wave after wave at the trenches until eventually getting stuck in.

Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

I should read that book.

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

Yeah, DKOK are SUICIDAL, it's not about winning battles, it's about clearing their name by sacrificing themselves to the Emperor.

The book offers a different perspective IMO, they retreat when battles are lost, an orderly retreat mind you, use the PDF to take the blunt of an assault, rather than themselves and as I said earlier evacuate the planet once 5/6 of the regiment is dead and it is clear that said planet cannot be saved.

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

They may have artillery but so does everybody else. Pretty much every IG regiment is capable of flattening cities. I just think Death Korps tactics are stupid, why run charge wave after wave of infantry at a position when you could drive through it in a Chimera, meaning that the can do more KILLING. They're also really going about repaying they perceived debt to the Emperor in an inefficient way. They need not be suicidal and in fact they'd be better if they combined their killy power and non-existent fear of death with a will to survive while doing their duty and so there would be more of them surviving and KILLING. This would turn them into mini Space Marines. I can't imagine why there'd be much trench warfare in a universe with bombers, tanks .etc. The trenches would just get completely flattened, and deep striking units would cut off supplies. Trench warfare could only properly happen in the way that the Death Korps do it in a period like WW1, where there weren't planes capable of carrying large payloads/ amounts of paratroops, there weren't any tanks (until the latter half, where they began to considerably push back the front lines) and artillery was largely ineffective against the German troops, as they had well built bunkers (bunkers would only get better in the 41st millenium) and many shells were duds. 41st millennium, there are melta torpedoes, skimmers, land raiders, battlesuits .etc. The Death Korps may have the weaponry to deal with these, but not the mobility.

Isnt Marbo (rambo) a catachan? nuff said. anyways with catachans you get the right to quote Predator all day long....BONUS!

Banzaimash wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

They may have artillery but so does everybody else. Pretty much every IG regiment is capable of flattening cities. I just think Death Korps tactics are stupid, why run charge wave after wave of infantry at a position when you could drive through it in a Chimera, meaning that the can do more KILLING. They're also really going about repaying they perceived debt to the Emperor in an inefficient way. They need not be suicidal and in fact they'd be better if they combined their killy power and non-existent fear of death with a will to survive while doing their duty and so there would be more of them surviving and KILLING. This would turn them into mini Space Marines. I can't imagine why there'd be much trench warfare in a universe with bombers, tanks .etc. The trenches would just get completely flattened, and deep striking units would cut off supplies. Trench warfare could only properly happen in the way that the Death Korps do it in a period like WW1, where there weren't planes capable of carrying large payloads/ amounts of paratroops, there weren't any tanks (until the latter half, where they began to considerably push back the front lines) and artillery was largely ineffective against the German troops, as they had well built bunkers (bunkers would only get better in the 41st millenium) and many shells were duds. 41st millennium, there are melta torpedoes, skimmers, land raiders, battlesuits .etc. The Death Korps may have the weaponry to deal with these, but not the mobility.

Krieg got MORE arty and much more effictive one too, there was not any earthshakers or heavy mortar back in WW1. And they're specialists, tanks are mostly irrelevant in sieges.

Not to mention, if we look at the Krieg models, they have the Gorgon tank, and "sapper" type guys, presumably to mine under fortifications, the way medieval engineers would have sappers undermine a wall. So really, with the Gorgon, they are not "sending wave after wave" of guys to their deaths, they are rolling huge infantry carrying contraptions, and dropping off an overwhelming number of guys in one spot.

After of course, they blow the whole grid square to kingdom come.

Banzaimash wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

They may have artillery but so does everybody else. Pretty much every IG regiment is capable of flattening cities. I just think Death Korps tactics are stupid, why run charge wave after wave of infantry at a position when you could drive through it in a Chimera, meaning that the can do more KILLING. They're also really going about repaying they perceived debt to the Emperor in an inefficient way. They need not be suicidal and in fact they'd be better if they combined their killy power and non-existent fear of death with a will to survive while doing their duty and so there would be more of them surviving and KILLING. This would turn them into mini Space Marines. I can't imagine why there'd be much trench warfare in a universe with bombers, tanks .etc. The trenches would just get completely flattened, and deep striking units would cut off supplies. Trench warfare could only properly happen in the way that the Death Korps do it in a period like WW1, where there weren't planes capable of carrying large payloads/ amounts of paratroops, there weren't any tanks (until the latter half, where they began to considerably push back the front lines) and artillery was largely ineffective against the German troops, as they had well built bunkers (bunkers would only get better in the 41st millenium) and many shells were duds. 41st millennium, there are melta torpedoes, skimmers, land raiders, battlesuits .etc. The Death Korps may have the weaponry to deal with these, but not the mobility.

The munitorum considers the effectiveness of the Death Korps' ability to take impossible objectives second only to the space marines, so good old fashioned trench warfare seems to work.

Call me stupid, but I like the Cadians. The birth rate is synonymous with the recruitment rate. Every single citizen is in the Guard at some point or another.

I have to go with the Valhallans: Their world was totaled by an invasion, and, they still stay there and fight well. Plus, it doesn't hurt that Commissar Cain runs around with them.

Bobthehero wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

They may have artillery but so does everybody else. Pretty much every IG regiment is capable of flattening cities. I just think Death Korps tactics are stupid, why run charge wave after wave of infantry at a position when you could drive through it in a Chimera, meaning that the can do more KILLING. They're also really going about repaying they perceived debt to the Emperor in an inefficient way. They need not be suicidal and in fact they'd be better if they combined their killy power and non-existent fear of death with a will to survive while doing their duty and so there would be more of them surviving and KILLING. This would turn them into mini Space Marines. I can't imagine why there'd be much trench warfare in a universe with bombers, tanks .etc. The trenches would just get completely flattened, and deep striking units would cut off supplies. Trench warfare could only properly happen in the way that the Death Korps do it in a period like WW1, where there weren't planes capable of carrying large payloads/ amounts of paratroops, there weren't any tanks (until the latter half, where they began to considerably push back the front lines) and artillery was largely ineffective against the German troops, as they had well built bunkers (bunkers would only get better in the 41st millenium) and many shells were duds. 41st millennium, there are melta torpedoes, skimmers, land raiders, battlesuits .etc. The Death Korps may have the weaponry to deal with these, but not the mobility.

Krieg got MORE arty and much more effictive one too, there was not any earthshakers or heavy mortar back in WW1. And they're specialists, tanks are mostly irrelevant in sieges.

The artillery in WW1 was relatively powerful and numerous to the time, as they were used against humans rather than the myriad of hard as nails/infinite in number enemies that the Imperium faces, and tanks are extremely effective at tipping the balance in trench warfare (a moving wall of metal with loads of troops behind it tends to make more progress over open ground against enemy fire than just the infantry).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

In Dead Men Walking they decided to surround a city with heavy artillery, wipe it out of the map, they also had Grenadiers in the city, as recon/scout/looking for clues about what is going on, some of them EVACUATED before the enemy, and they did not had a comissar telling them to get the hell out of here.

They may have artillery but so does everybody else. Pretty much every IG regiment is capable of flattening cities. I just think Death Korps tactics are stupid, why run charge wave after wave of infantry at a position when you could drive through it in a Chimera, meaning that the can do more KILLING. They're also really going about repaying they perceived debt to the Emperor in an inefficient way. They need not be suicidal and in fact they'd be better if they combined their killy power and non-existent fear of death with a will to survive while doing their duty and so there would be more of them surviving and KILLING. This would turn them into mini Space Marines. I can't imagine why there'd be much trench warfare in a universe with bombers, tanks .etc. The trenches would just get completely flattened, and deep striking units would cut off supplies. Trench warfare could only properly happen in the way that the Death Korps do it in a period like WW1, where there weren't planes capable of carrying large payloads/ amounts of paratroops, there weren't any tanks (until the latter half, where they began to considerably push back the front lines) and artillery was largely ineffective against the German troops, as they had well built bunkers (bunkers would only get better in the 41st millenium) and many shells were duds. 41st millennium, there are melta torpedoes, skimmers, land raiders, battlesuits .etc. The Death Korps may have the weaponry to deal with these, but not the mobility.

The munitorum considers the effectiveness of the Death Korps' ability to take impossible objectives second only to the space marines, so good old fashioned trench warfare seems to work.

The Death Korps are really protected by plot armour, because against the more poweful enemies they face they simply don't match up with regard to tactics or equipment (and those they do match up to, like Orks, are better at it than they are).

Yes, plot armour. Whatever that is.

Banzaimash wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Krieg troops will usually use erm, a VERY high amount of artillery before (And during ) the charge.

Text

Krieg got MORE arty and much more effictive one too, there was not any earthshakers or heavy mortar back in WW1. And they're specialists, tanks are mostly irrelevant in sieges.

The artillery in WW1 was relatively powerful and numerous to the time, as they were used against humans rather than the myriad of hard as nails/infinite in number enemies that the Imperium faces, and tanks are extremely effective at tipping the balance in trench warfare (a moving wall of metal with loads of troops behind it tends to make more progress over open ground against enemy fire than just the infantry).

I said tanks in sieges, not trench vs trench.

But I was talking about trench vs trench, which is kind of the definition of trench warfare.

The steel legion are easily the most bad ass. Death Korps of Kreig are just a bunch of suicidal 19 year olds.

Hooking Squaks wrote:The steel legion are easily the most bad ass. Death Korps of Kreig are just a bunch of suicidal 19 year olds.

omg the sig.... it burrrnssss XD


back on topic though, I think seige can and still works given that a big tank charge is still succeptable to tank traps, anti-tank mines, infantry portable anti-tank guns like meltas wielded by essentially troops that aren't even remotely afraid of getting squished by a tank. There are many places like a hive city that can only really be taken down via seige or some sort of crazy armor rush (which eventually ground down to a sorta trench war anyway just in an urban setting which favors dug in infantry more than armor btw) a la the Vervun Hive war from Gaunt's Ghosts.

Banzaimash wrote:
tanks are extremely effective at tipping the balance in trench warfare (a moving wall of metal with loads of troops behind it tends to make more progress over open ground against enemy fire than just the infantry).

Read #6 and #1 and tell me how great WW1 tanks are.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19586_6-awesome-vehicles-war-with-ridiculous-weaknesses.html

The tanks in 40k are renowned for their ruggedness and durability, and its not like they knock out their crews/passengers (Chimeras are amphibious rolling bunkers while Russ tanks can run on virtually any kind of fuel. The article you posted still states that, "this tank was incredibly deadly against the outmatched Germans" and, "World War I was going to turn on who had the better tanks" so despite the faults in the specific tanks listed rather than tanks as a whole. As for actual urban conflict, a lot of it involves sniping, booby traps and the use of ambushes. Staying in the streets, let alone entrenching in them is a suicidal manoeuvre and so any fortified positions are established in elevated positions, and are thus the cause of fighting room to room. So yes, tanks aren't that great in urban battles but trenches are even worse. Also, many potentially protracted sieges have been shortened or even avoided by the use of maneuverability over firepower, in cases such as the Maginot Line. The Blitzkrieg of the Germans in WW2 is another example of how speed and carefully applied force (Steel Legion) won battles, and the traditional tactics of sapping and heavy artillery (DKoK) were becoming less effective (artillery could flatten cities but could easily be countered by air power, which is much more available in the setting of 40k than in WW2).

Banzaimash wrote:The tanks in 40k are renowned for their ruggedness and durability, and its not like they knock out their crews/passengers (Chimeras are amphibious rolling bunkers while Russ tanks can run on virtually any kind of fuel. The article you posted still states that, "this tank was incredibly deadly against the outmatched Germans" and, "World War I was going to turn on who had the better tanks" so despite the faults in the specific tanks listed rather than tanks as a whole. As for actual urban conflict, a lot of it involves sniping, booby traps and the use of ambushes. Staying in the streets, let alone entrenching in them is a suicidal manoeuvre and so any fortified positions are established in elevated positions, and are thus the cause of fighting room to room. So yes, tanks aren't that great in urban battles but trenches are even worse. Also, many potentially protracted sieges have been shortened or even avoided by the use of maneuverability over firepower, in cases such as the Maginot Line. The Blitzkrieg of the Germans in WW2 is another example of how speed and carefully applied force (Steel Legion) won battles, and the traditional tactics of sapping and heavy artillery (DKoK) were becoming less effective (artillery could flatten cities but could easily be countered by air power, which is much more available in the setting of 40k than in WW2).

Except we weren't talking about WW2, we were talking about WW1.

And the point I was making was on #6, where digging the hole just slightly larger is enough to disable a full battle tank.

I was using WW2 as an example to demonstrate how the tactics used by Death Korps are useless. The fact alone that the tactics of the DKoK are used in WW1, while those of the Steel Legion are used in WW2 , goes to show that the Steel Legion Tactics are more advanced. The tanks of WW1 were trash that is true, but those in the 40k setting are far superior, whereas the Death Korps tactics haven't changed at all since WW1, although they do have weaponry such as meltaguns and better artillery to keep them afloat realistically in the 41st millennium. As for getting trapped in holes because of a heavy front appendage, name one tank in 40k to which this would happen. And if you can identify such a tank, it's not like the DKoK are the only folks that are able to dig holes.