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I don't own any PP merchandise. So I'm curious, what's so fething clear there?

Mick A wrote:Going by Sids defence of PP on other threads and bringing it up here I think its all starting to become clear...

Yes, because making sly insinuations about other posters' motives is so conductive to a pleasant discussion... Who not state your accusation openly and be a man?

Sid : With regard to erratas and updates for the various armies, no need to buy them in the book, as they are being released seperately online. For free download.

FAQ and Errata for the main rulebook is planned for 2 weeks after release, so that response from Gamers can be collected, collated and appraised.

Tri wrote:Hard back = More expensive then paperback ... also its only 256 pages So really what the hell is your point? A smaller paperback is cheaper then a larger hardback?

No gak, really? Hardback is more expensive? I had no idea!

I know that, clearly you missed the point. PP gives you OPTIONS, less expensive options. GW charges you a crap-ton and tells you to feth off, you either take what they give you or leave it. And the PP hardback option is still much cheaper than what GW offers, and even at only 256 pages it still gives you more than what any GW rulebook does.

And I'm really getting sick of people bringing up page count, as if that really mattered. Apparently it doesn't even matter what's on the damn pages, only that they have the page count. If they were all blank would it still be worth $75? Apparently because it'd still be a hug brick of a book and weighing a ton = worth a lot.

As for this, this is my last post about it. I said what I think and that's that, lol. If I get the book at all I will, in fact, hit eBay. That's a big if, though.

Sidstyler wrote:I don't own any PP merchandise. So I'm curious, what's so fething clear there?

Why choose to defend PP's prices but have a go at GW's pricing? Both companies are now seeing what they can get away with these days (going by PP's plastic starter set prices). And as for Prime II, yes it is a good book but again, as the new 8th book, a lot is not needed by a lot of players (fluff, stories and in my case any army list that isn't Khador). Having said that I have Prime II as I enjoy playing it and I will be getting 8th as I like this version better than 7th...

Mick

Option is coming in September with the new boxed set.

Sid, seriously duder, if you really don't like it that much, then just leave the thread. You're like a dog with a bone. If you don't agree the price is a fair reflection of the product then fairly dos. Most people do, so we can leave that one there.

Come on Sid mate, The pages are not blank they are full color and for printing prices alone it makes a HUGE diference on final price of any book outhere.

Also you can get super prices on starter books wich is in my opinion a valid alternative.

THe content per say its down to personal opinions wich I obviously respect.

I look in the present times at PP and GW ( whats with so many comparisons with both lately?) and they are so similar both quality/ prices wise that only minor things differ from them.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Option is coming in September with the new boxed set.

A pretty awful option since it's a) coming several months later and b) bundled with a bunch of ugly figures for two armies I certainly don't want, so in order to get an affordable rulebook without extraneous rubbish in it (or the tedium of having to try to hawk it off to other rubes/gamers in your social circle), one has to buy it from an secondhand ebay vendor. So yeah, GW's business model is clearly perfect and in no way could it possibly be improved...

Faced with the prospect of either buying a bad book for 60€ or waiting until September to buy a stripped-down book from ebay (easier said than done because demand will outnumber supply, just like with all the other starter set rulebooks), I really don't have any incentive from GW to finish painting my Empire army. If they'd released a cheap, softcover rulebook this summer, I could have had time to learn the rules, paint new units, try out different ways to put my army together, etc, but no way am I going to pay 60€ for that pleasure, especially for a book that's ludicrously unwieldly at a table (I dare anyone try to hold one aloft at reading height with one hand for five minutes and tell me otherwise) and a pain to carry. Wait until September, you say? By then my enthusiasm will have waned, my holidays over and my spare time notably cut short.

So yes, GW missed a sale.

And we care how? Getting seriously tired of these pathetic posts in attempts to derail the thread. You don't like the options you have? Don't play fantasy. Seems that you won't be anyway, so leave the thread and let the conversation of new rules and changes continue.

To be fair, we don't know for sure if the models are "ugly" yet...and probably won't until a week before release.

So how are the figures in the new set ugly? I've not seen them yet.

So same to you Agamemmnom. If you don't like it, or the price then hey, don't buy it.

To me the idea of fielding one big ass block of 100 gobbos is so damn tempting now

Price wise you can get way cheaper than 60 euros at Maelstrom, and the warstore sometimes has the starters splitted from books in the battlewagon bitz... sure you missed most of the summer Aga but just saying theres alternatives outhere.

As for "you dont like so go away "comments... I disagree with them... If users post is because they care enough about these things... and I bet both aga and sid will get some books at cheap in the future, they know they want to, they are just trying to convince themselves to save some damn money... Resistance is futile

So the new edition means buying lots more models for my existing armies?

Oh now thats surprising...

I agree with your final comment, the more fantasy players the better in my personal opinion. But learly 3 pages of telling us why they don't want it seems over the top. Yes the book is expensive, I personally have ordered the collector's edition in hope that in few years i can make my money back, but you have bought into an expensive hobby, I don't see the point in backing out over a book?

Sidstyler wrote:To be fair, we don't know for sure if the models are "ugly" yet...and probably won't until a week before release.

If then.

Admittedly, I'm projecting current trends into the future, but since they will be starter-set quality and since GW has never made an attractive High Elf plastic infantryman, I do believe I'm on sure footing.

Big P wrote:So the new edition means buying lots more models for my existing armies?

Oh now thats surprising...

Yes and no. The rules now enable larger units, giving them distinct benefits (more attackers, or stubborn) and this is certainly encouraged, but still far from compulsory.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Big P wrote:So the new edition means buying lots more models for my existing armies?

Oh now thats surprising...

Yes and no. The rules now enable larger units, giving them distinct benefits (more attackers, or stubborn) and this is certainly encouraged, but still far from compulsory.

I do believe you're being optimistic there. The metagame will almost certainly favor players who will buy more in order to get those benefits, so if you want to be competitive, you'll need them.

I will probably skip the starter, one rulebook and the big gobbo army I managed to get mostly at ebays' Maestrom, aftermarkets etc ( thats one good thing about GW popularity) saved me a ton of money... So I really have no use for the starter... only if it gives you really cool terrain.

Speaking of terrain GW should really make a huge box with 3 or 4 citadel woods bundle... specially now that theres more terrain in fantasy.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Big P wrote:So the new edition means buying lots more models for my existing armies?

Oh now thats surprising...

Yes and no. The rules now enable larger units, giving them distinct benefits (more attackers, or stubborn) and this is certainly encouraged, but still far from compulsory.

I do believe you're being optimistic there. The metagame will almost certainly favor players who will buy more in order to get those benefits, so if you want to be competitive, you'll need them.

I do believe you're being optimistic there. Some armies will not favour large units for the amount of points basic troops will cost such as WoC. This is where Elite armies come in, and will be using multiple charges.


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NAVARRO wrote:Speaking of terrain GW should really make a huge box with 3 or 4 citadel woods bundle... specially now that theres more terrain in fantasy.

This is true, GW need to bring out some sort of box set like there Cities of Death or Planetstrike bundle. Fantasy is really lacking in this department, and I know if I could get multiple empire buildings in a box, I would definitely pick a few up for an Empire town.

I agree the book is bloody expensive and how are you supposed to carry it around for gaming. oh you are not you are expected to pay the same again for the mini rule book and miniatures that you might not even use! Sure there is ebay to buy the mini rule book by itself but I doubt that would be a suggestion given by GW.

120 AUD is crazy, maybe they thought its a once buy only item so they had to make it as high as possible and talk about the value of it being an item you only need to buy every 5 years or something. Right now GW is coming to the point where everything they release seems to have less extra bits but more expensive at the same time. Also there will be less and less content looking at some older rule books they actually showed you how to make scenery but now it will be look at the cool scenery you can buy we will make awesome rules so you buy more! There is no more hobby in their books.

You can see the difference between the 4th ed 40k and the 5th ed 40k rule book. The 5th ed came with more pages but way less content and the extra pages was just was some 2 page spread for each race! But the 4th ed book has different ways to play and tonnes of extra rules. I feel that the extra pages in the new fantasy are just an excuse to charge us more.

But (c)learly 3 pages of telling us why they don't want it seems over the top. Yes the book is expensive, I personally have ordered the collector's edition in hope that in few years i can make my money back, but you have bought into an expensive hobby, I don't see the point in backing out over a book?

That is all fine and dandy First Born but we all don't have the huge wadge of readies that you have mate.

For some of us we have to think in other terms. That is all. I agree the book for what you get is probably worth the money in terms of quality from what has been said. The problem is in 4 or 5 years time it will be redundant and I will be expected to fork out another heap of rhino on a book that will only last another 4 or 5 years.
Now that is only a tenner or so a year but a 50 quid up front still represents a considerable outlay to me.

Please try to be more careful with your comments of the, "I can afford, it so if you can't, then " type please because it comes across as patronising, even if it isn't intented

but you have bought into an expensive hobby

It wasn't this damn expensive when I started!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Big P wrote:So the new edition means buying lots more models for my existing armies?

Oh now thats surprising...

Yes and no. The rules now enable larger units, giving them distinct benefits (more attackers, or stubborn) and this is certainly encouraged, but still far from compulsory.

I do believe you're being optimistic there. The metagame will almost certainly favor players who will buy more in order to get those benefits, so if you want to be competitive, you'll need them.

You can also just field your existing models in larger units- i.e. combining two smaller units into one. Certainly, I bought some extra models to get ready for 8th edition, but I'm also just going to combine a few units to make them viable.

As to the book price- is it expensive? Yes! Is it (seemingly, up to this point) awesome and worth the price? Imho, yes . I'm quite pleased with it, although I do wish the small one was being released sooner so we didn't have to lug that huge tome around...

Sidstyler wrote:

but you have bought into an expensive hobby

It wasn't this damn expensive when I started!

Still not... Just some people seem to like the 'elite' status of it being so.



The thing is, the cost has no bearing for me. I self fund my hobby by selling painted figures. This works well for me and I have a monthly hobby budget of a quite considerable amount that doesnt impact of my 'real-life' money pit of daughter, car and living costs!

My point is, have the rules been altered purely to make people buy more stuff?

It sure seems that way.

I have been playing WFB since 1984 and have no anti-GW bias (indeed I spent a few years working for them) but Im trying to see what reason there is for these changes other than the real bottom line being that it will sell them more models. Great business strategy, just not sure its what I want from a 'hobby'.

I cant help but distrust a game system that seems to have been rewritten in order to sell more product... Especially to those who already have armies. Make the people who dont buy, be forced to or find themselves outclassed.

What I dislike is the constant dumbing down and simplification of the rules systems so they become short affairs in seeing who can roll the highest on a die. I stopped 40K after the last few re-writes as I found it an awful game. Luckliy I still have 2nd Ed to play!

I hope WFB dont go the same way for me. But I suspect it will... I may give it a go, but suspect I will be sticking to my 5th/7th edition hybrid. I may well still get the book if it has useful stuff in it, and I like the 'fluff'. One beauty of the Warhammer system is the ability to pull parts from all editions and cobble them together in a fashion of your choosing.

Of course its only the rules, one good thing is hopefully there will be some nice new figures...

Woot just ordered my stuff.

Love the magic cards (really hope individual army books are in there). The tokens are also really nice.

The rest of the stuff just seems bulky. That folding ruler just looks like it would be death on the gaming board. One careless player could take out a whole block of minis (it looks heavy). And the engineers compass thing just looks way to bulky.

As for the rules, i dont think they are as horrible as some people make them out to be. I was really against variable charges but after messing around with some blocks on my gaming table it really isnt that bad. Sometimes it will let you pull off a nuts charge.

Magic looks like its going to be really really strong. Lizard magic just looks devastating now. Slanns can add one dice to all their casting rolls (which if im reading it right wont contribute to the 12 PD max). They can make their power dice go a very very long way...

My skaven look like they are getting a lot stronger, weapon teams and warp lightning cannons are going to be incredibly devastating with no more guessing.

Well us in the historical world are well used to variable charges... Lost of rules have them.

Makes it alot more fun.

Good point about the Warp Lightning Cannon. Wasn't overly sold on it when the book came out, mainly because I'm a bit stuck in my ways for guess range, so trying to leave enough room for a favourable bounce then explosion twisted my melon. So now I just need to worry about more favourable positioning, which is nice.

As to needing to buy more models, I really don't see it happening to the degree people seem to fear. Fast, heavy armies like my my Dark Elf Monsters can still operate exactly as they do, but the resulting close combats will probably be more about wiping out the enemy in a single swoop rather than flanking with a single Hydra.

Now this particular list does need some tinkering. I need to strip down, or possibly drop altogether, the Black Dragon Lord, as he's a tad over the 25% for 2250 (the usual size my gaming group plays), and the 4th Chariot needs to be clipped out, in favour of more Core (not far off the Core, as I have 396 points in Core just now). HOWEVER, I do have a more extensive collection of Dark Elf models than I need for my favoured list, so I probably won't really need to buy anything (can always drop in a couple of units of Dark Riders to eat those final points, and bring core to over 25%).

Now to be absolutely fair, I don't really play in Tournaments, so I suppose having to worry about the Metagame is less of an issue for me than it might be for some. But like I said, I'm of the mind that the Metagame for 8th Edition will be a lot wider than 7th, and is going to take a while to really filter through. Not particularly up on Metagame and it's formation, so feel free to disagree if you have a better grasp than I do.

I would hope that GW would release the mini book as a stand alone.

Expecting players to purchase a starter to get the smaller version of the rules is not acceptable.

There should be the third option for those who are not entering the game, but who need a rulebook.

I would be willing to spend $20 on the little book. But expecting a $90 purchase to NOT have a 526pg monster book is dumb.

I'm still demanding blood!
The general consensus is that this is a very good edition, and having see a few demo games myself, I'm impressed by the rules and by the quality of the new hardback edition.

I'm not associated with GW (thank God) but when I see a lot of the positive messages for the new game, I think back to the hysteria of a couple of months ago when people were ready to write this off without actually giving it a chance - "my army is screwed," "I'm putting my minis up on ebay asap," etc

Some people are blameless, but others need to eat humble pie until they choke!!!

Rant over

anf yes the little rulebook should be sold as a stand alone.

skrulnik wrote:

I would be willing to spend $20 on the little book. But expecting a $90 purchase to NOT have a 526pg monster book is dumb.

They will be all over Ebay for 10 dollars after a month....