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Been going through it again, and Terror has changed a fair bit. Gone now is the radial effect (so no more Terror Bombing!). Instead, each and every time a Terror causer charges, the target unit must take a Ld test or flee. This is no longer 'once per game'.

Really liking this whole thing! Also, further into the book is a nice history of not only Citadel and GW, but also Wargaming as a whole.

[quote=Sidstyler
A more reasonable comparison that I would accept would be comparing the main rulebook for Warhammer with the main rules for any other miniatures game. At least then we're talking about the same thing, games, and not comparing it to something with far more "value" in the real world with completely different content that you're purchasing for an entirely different reason.

You know i just assumed they'd keep the box as is but change the cover and the rule book ... Well guess i was wrong rumor has it the might be Greenskins vs. Empire, Chaos vs. Empire, or High Elves vs. Skaven

but any way, Point was .. get the box set what ever they call it and sell on the models if you don't collect them.

No one wants to actually believe GW would dare put out a good product.

No, I can believe that they can put out a good product. It just seems like they can't make something both good and reasonably priced. Apparently if they actually start putting effort into their products it means they start charging twice as much for them.

::pinch of salt::

I haven't finished reading the rules for myself, but I've gotten a fair ways through, and gleaned a lot more from this thread, and I think have a new nickname for this edition:

Warhammer Little League.

These changes seem to balance everything out to such an extreme amount that only the randomness of the dice determines the winner. It seems unlikely that skill is going to play anywhere near as much part as it used to, and the list of popular builds is just going to get even more polarized (O&G armies will all be Orc heroes leading giant piles of Night Goblins, Empire and Dwarves will forget they have hand weapons, etc...).

Hopefully, I'll get a chance to play a game or two today or in the near future, and my mind will change. But right now, I'm not particularly impressed. The game is less like Chess and more like War.

Sidstyler wrote:

No one wants to actually believe GW would dare put out a good product.

No, I can believe that they can put out a good product. It just seems like they can't make something both good and reasonably priced. Apparently if they actually start putting effort into their products it means they start charging twice as much for them.

Well, I should have added the " " .
But as you asked: I am primarily interested in modelling and having a fluffy battle, where both sides have fun. I don't care whose army wins then, as both players win.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:But right now, I'm not particularly impressed. The game is less like Chess and more like War.

That's a really devastating critique for a war game

Manfred, I really disagree. I think dice will play a role, but I can't see it playing that much more of a role than before. Try a game with the new rules before dismissing it.

I thought charging random inches would add a lot more randomness, but when taken in conjunction with pre-measuring, I actually find it to be a bit more tactical. Since I wasn't good at determining the difference between 9 and 11 inches, I found it slightly random sometimes in 7th. But now, I can know exactly the difference and determine my odds on making the charge for every charge.

Someone who makes strong tactical decisions with appropriate risk-making and an understanding of the odds is going to win over someone who doesn't. That hasn't changed.

Killjoy00 wrote:Since I wasn't good at determining the difference between 9 and 11 inches, I found it slightly random sometimes in 7th.

There's less tactical trying to determine if you or your enemy have charge range, but it's much more tactical pre-measuring then rolling and having to risk if you're in charge range anyways? Doesn't that seem a bit... double-standardish? It's not tactical having to eye whether you or your opponent might have charge, but it is tactical seeing if your opponent might have the charge if they roll average?

Killjoy00 wrote:But now, I can know exactly the difference and determine my odds on making the charge for every charge.

And before I could know the exact distance and determine my odds for being within that range. It's not more tactical, it's the same thing but with rolling 2D6 instead of eyeballing.

Sidstyler wrote:

No one wants to actually believe GW would dare put out a good product.

No, I can believe that they can put out a good product. It just seems like they can't make something both good and reasonably priced. Apparently if they actually start putting effort into their products it means they start charging twice as much for them.

What you choose to believe, or not believe, is pretty irrelevant to what the product actually is. To find your 'reasonably priced' product, we need a time machine. The price of this book is very much in line with the prices of similar products, and the quality is very good. And as I'm sure you'll point out immediately, it's just my opinion. Then again, my job for 25 years is evaluating products bases on quality vs. price, and their sales potential in my stores. I've also been able to spend several hours reading the book over the last week, and get in a lot of games with the new rules.

Good product. Better set of rules than they had for the last couple of editions. Having a lot of fun playing the game. Artwork is good, content is good. Price is appropriate based on similar products, and quality is a lot better.


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Manfred von Drakken wrote:::pinch of salt::

I haven't finished reading the rules for myself, but I've gotten a fair ways through, and gleaned a lot more from this thread, and I think have a new nickname for this edition:

Warhammer Little League.

These changes seem to balance everything out to such an extreme amount that only the randomness of the dice determines the winner. It seems unlikely that skill is going to play anywhere near as much part as it used to, and the list of popular builds is just going to get even more polarized (O&G armies will all be Orc heroes leading giant piles of Night Goblins, Empire and Dwarves will forget they have hand weapons, etc...).

Hopefully, I'll get a chance to play a game or two today or in the near future, and my mind will change. But right now, I'm not particularly impressed. The game is less like Chess and more like War.

Played a great game last night. Orc great shaman, Black orc warboss, Black orc ASB. 8 big blocks of 25-30 infantry, several warmachines. 3000pts vs Chaos. Had a great time and won by a whole 4 pts.) The game is fun, and I actually like the idea of huge blocks of stubborn gobbos and orcs, but won't be wasting heroes on the weedy stuff. Rather put them in the Black Orc units and take on the tough guys. Friggin Khorne warriors with 30 attacks! But we beats them up, yes we did.

Minsc wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:Since I wasn't good at determining the difference between 9 and 11 inches, I found it slightly random sometimes in 7th.

There's less tactical trying to determine if you or your enemy have charge range, but it's much more tactical pre-measuring then rolling and having to risk if you're in charge range anyways? Doesn't that seem a bit... double-standardish? It's not tactical having to eye whether you or your opponent might have charge, but it is tactical seeing if your opponent might have the charge if they roll average?

Not at all. I had basically no idea whether something was 9 inches or 11 inches. Now I know I have an X% chance of making the charge and can weigh that appropriately. Also, just as importantly, I can determine my distance to an opponent exactly and make my movements based on that. That's a lot more tactical than... well, I should back up a little bit because I think this puts me out of his charge range (or oops it didn't).

Thing is, with the change in army restriction and selection, a large part of your strategy is going to be the choice of going with megaunits to blag Horde, lots of smaller units looking to disrupt ranks, or somewhere in between. Thus chosen (as well as Magic Lores, which are now set when your write your list, NOT when you've seen your opponent!) your tactics work around how to make best use of this.

Right now, there is no metagame whatsover, and although hardly an afficiando of such things, I expect it to be some time before anything reliable enough emerges. The S3/R2 restriction makes it slightly more predictable, but then with 50% of your points available for Special, whether we will see lots of Artillery favoured, or chunky blocks of Heavy Infantry is something time alone will tell. For instance, currently (pre it's release!) my Dark Elves can have either 1 Hydra and 2 Bolt Throwers, 4 Bolt Throwers, or 2 Hydras. But as soon as the rules are released, and points allowing, in 2,000 points I could field either 3 Bolt Throwers and a Hydra, 4 Bolt Throwers, 2 Hydras and a Bolt Thrower, and so on. Much, much harder to predict exactly what I'm taking. Indeed, now I no longer strictly need Hellebron to take lots of Witch Elves, we might see more Cauldron Armies, but still backed up with a couple of Highborns...

With the advantages that huge units have, I wonder if we're going to see more of a return to hammer and anvil type tactics. Large unwieldly and wide blocks of cheaper troops making up the anvil and then fast moving and heavy hitting choices waiting to hit once the lines start engaging.

I noticed something similar in previous editions, but the centre/anvil units tended to be multiple smaller units (and by smaller I mean less huge) rather than truly large ones.

I'm glad I've gotten my collector's edition ordered. They've sold out now.

ZF-

frozenwastes wrote:With the advantages that huge units have, I wonder if we're going to see more of a return to hammer and anvil type tactics. Large unwieldly and wide blocks of cheaper troops making up the anvil and then fast moving and heavy hitting choices waiting to hit once the lines start engaging.

I noticed something similar in previous editions, but the centre/anvil units tended to be multiple smaller units (and by smaller I mean less huge) rather than truly large ones.

You will, but trust me, the bigger units are not nearly as unwieldy and difficult to maneuver as they were in previous additions. My goblins are going in blocks of 50, my orcs in 30. 6 wide on orcs, and gobbos can go either 10 wide for horder, or 10 deep for tarpit.)

The changes to the movement rules is what allows the larger units to work better, right? I've only paged through the book and spectated a game so far.

I'm just curious as to how people are judging the "quality" of this book, especially in comparison to what else is on the market right now. I looked at Warmachine and the Prime MKII book comes in a paperback for only $30 brand new, and IIRC it's also in full color AND has all the rules for all the armies in it, so you don't really need to buy the army books in order to play the game. I think every model comes with a stat card, too, so you don't really need the decks, either.

Why does everyone think the 8th edition WHF book is such a good value in comparison? Because it's big? So being huge and impossible to use means it's "better", and worth more money? Even if most of those extra pages are worthless padding, the same regurgitated fluff that they reprint word for word in every rulebook? I know everyone's been trying very hard to insinuate as much (or just outright accusing me of caring about nothing but winning, as if you people know me at all), but I don't hate fluff, I just hate being forced to pay an extra $60 for a retelling of the same old fluff.

I'm waiting for the Starter set to come out, so i'll at least have some minis for the bloated price of the rulebook with it. (unless its more than 60$, in which case I may... just not buy into it really.)

There needs to be a softcover version of the rulebook without so much needless crap the veteran gamer out there doesn't need.

After careful consideration and repeated viewing of the new 528 page book I've decided to get a copy at the midnight release at my local GW store. Being mainly a hobbyist I'm mightily impressed with the attention paid to the kind of hobby and story elements that have kept me modeling GW miniatures all these years. I've even started finally painting the newer plastic models for my ancient Chaos Warriors army.

Sidstyler wrote:I'm just curious as to how people are judging the "quality" of this book, especially in comparison to what else is on the market right now. I looked at Warmachine and the Prime MKII book comes in a paperback for only $30 brand new, and IIRC it's also in full color AND has all the rules for all the armies in it, so you don't really need to buy the army books in order to play the game. I think every model comes with a stat card, too, so you don't really need the decks, either.

Why does everyone think the 8th edition WHF book is such a good value in comparison? Because it's big? So being huge and impossible to use means it's "better", and worth more money? Even if most of those extra pages are worthless padding, the same regurgitated fluff that they reprint word for word in every rulebook? I know everyone's been trying very hard to insinuate as much (or just outright accusing me of caring about nothing but winning, as if you people know me at all), but I don't hate fluff, I just hate being forced to pay an extra $60 for a retelling of the same old fluff.

Im buying it because you've spent so much time typing up dozens of long posts trying to explain why its not a good value at all.. With that kind of attention I need to see what Im missing!!

frozenwastes wrote:The changes to the movement rules is what allows the larger units to work better, right? I've only paged through the book and spectated a game so far.

Yes, quite a bit of small changes adding up to a smoother flowing game.
-A unit may reform immediately after a combat if it does not overrun or pursue.
-It is possible to do a 'quick reform' with a leadership test.
-It is not possible to be totally march blocked. A leadership test lets you ignore nearby enemy.
-Charges are simpler, checking for line of site, and distance between the unit. (Closest to closest, far as I can tell.) The unit is then assumed to have made the charge, and the unit is then moved in, allowed to wheel, etc, and the actually distance the far corner of the wheel moves doesn't matter. You have made the charge, now move the unit.
-Rivers, woods, etc do not prevent you from moving, or slow you up, although they may negate rank bonuses, steadfast, or other abilities while in them. So big units don't get bogged down.
-Units can just 'sidestep' or 'moveback' a portion of their move. No need to "I turn around, move half my distance, and then turn back around" explanations to an opponent.

Taken as a whole, it is making for some easier movement for larger units.

Sidstyler wrote:I'm just curious as to how people are judging the "quality" of this book, especially in comparison to what else is on the market right now. I looked at Warmachine and the Prime MKII book comes in a paperback for only $30 brand new, and IIRC it's also in full color AND has all the rules for all the armies in it, so you don't really need to buy the army books in order to play the game. I think every model comes with a stat card, too, so you don't really need the decks, either.

Why does everyone think the 8th edition WHF book is such a good value in comparison? Because it's big? So being huge and impossible to use means it's "better", and worth more money? Even if most of those extra pages are worthless padding, the same regurgitated fluff that they reprint word for word in every rulebook? I know everyone's been trying very hard to insinuate as much (or just outright accusing me of caring about nothing but winning, as if you people know me at all), but I don't hate fluff, I just hate being forced to pay an extra $60 for a retelling of the same old fluff.

Can you give it a rest already? I mean come on, either buy it, or wait for the starter set to come out to get a paperback rulebook. Guess what whining will do: Oh yeah, nothing.

Its got so much fluff and awesomeness in it compared to other editions, we're just trying to convince ourselves to splurge more money on this terribly overpriced hobby, and trying to justify it to others just makes it seem more real in our own minds.

Complaining about the price of a GW product is like going into jail to murder someone on death row: Its pointless.

trying to explain why its not a good value at all..

To me. That's the difference between me and you guys, I'm not openly insulting anyone who does buy it and think it's a good value.

Me on the other hand, I've been accused of being a WAAC donkey-cave who does nothing but whine and make sweeping generalizations because I personally think GW is out of their gourd.

GW's already scored big with some of their limited edition merchandise this time. The Skull Dice, Collector's Edition and the Gamer's Edition set were all sold out in about 3 days. The only limited edition item still available is the Engineer's Ranging Set.

I'm just curious as to how people are judging the "quality" of this book, especially in comparison to what else is on the market right now.
Well, for me, I can walk around the store, pull out rulebooks from a dozen miniature companies, and compare.

I looked at Warmachine and the Prime MKII book comes in a paperback for only $30 brand new, and IIRC it's also in full color AND has all the rules for all the armies in it, so you don't really need to buy the army books in order to play the game. I think every model comes with a stat card, too, so you don't really need the decks, either.
It's softcover, (they make a HC for 40.00), and one hell of a lot smaller than the book we are comparing it to. It's also quite useless for playing Warhammer, so even if you liked the book, you'd need a new army to use it. The 8th edition book is twice as big as the MarkII book, and in HC. I think they have a comparable cost.

Why does everyone think the 8th edition WHF book is such a good value in comparison? Because it's big?
Big, high page count, lots of pretty pictures, good stories, nicely done rule set, good diagrams, lots of basic missions, lots of advanced missions, rules for a dwarf airship, nice production quality, good artwork. And its BIG!


I just hate being forced to pay an extra $60 for a retelling of the same old fluff.
Don't buy it then. No one cares if you pick it up or not. No one is Forcing you to buy it. Wait for the el cheapo paperback version in September, people will be breaking open boxes and chucking them on Ebay. Or don't buy it at all. Go play warmachine or checkers. Keep playing 7th.




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strange_eric wrote:I'm waiting for the Starter set to come out, so i'll at least have some minis for the bloated price of the rulebook with it. (unless its more than 60$, in which case I may... just not buy into it really.)

There needs to be a softcover version of the rulebook without so much needless crap the veteran gamer out there doesn't need.

And lots of veteran gamers might just disagree with you.)

Starter set will be at least 90.00, and from what I've heard has some very nice miniatures coming with it. Hoping for 60.00 is a bit unrealistic, since they aren't that low now.

Sidstyler wrote:I'm just curious as to how people are judging the "quality" of this book, especially in comparison to what else is on the market right now. I looked at Warmachine and the Prime MKII book comes in a paperback for only $30 brand new, and IIRC it's also in full color AND has all the rules for all the armies in it, so you don't really need to buy the army books in order to play the game. I think every model comes with a stat card, too, so you don't really need the decks, either.

Its worth pointing out the hardcover version of the Warmachine Prime MKII is $39.99 regular retail. Its 256 pages compared to GW's 528 for $75.

Not trying to argue or assist in a derail of this good and informative thread, just pointing out that GW isn't the only one who bumped their head when it comes to pricing.

If you absolutely must have a paperback version, GW's starter sets are historically a great deal, so nab that when it gets out, sell/trade the mini's you don't want from the box set and the overall price is an absolute bargain.

Well, for me, I can walk around the store, pull out rulebooks from a dozen miniature companies, and compare.

Except that comparison would apparently be pointless, because those rulebooks from the other companies are "quite useless for playing Warhammer".

I assumed when you said "similar products", you weren't just talking about Warhammer Fantasy rulebooks (of which there are conveniently only two now, the regular $75 one and the collector's edition which costs over $100...and when those are your only options then hell yeah, the regular one sure looks like a good deal, doesn't it) and meant game rulebooks in general. I offered up what I found to be a pretty fair comparison, and it gets shot down because "lolz you nub WARMACHINE isn't Warhammer!"...so I have to admit I'm confused by this statement. I already knew you owned a shop, and apparently having other product didn't really matter since GW and Warhammer Fantasy is all we care about, you CAN'T compare it to anything else. Except uh...college textbooks, for some reason.

Second, I know it's softcover. I brought up the softcover because it was smaller and much easier to game with, and to emphasize that PP actually provided you with more realistic options, instead of "Buy the expensive gigantic hardcover, or the REALLY expensive gigantic hardcover! NAO!". I know they make a hardcover, but even then the hardcover is only $40. Sure, it's smaller, but the only people who are seriously going to support their arguments with that are the ones who actually believe that, since it's bigger and heavier, that makes it worth more money. Which is absurd, and just leads credence to my theory that GW purposely padded out the page count JUST SO they could charge $80 for it. Not only that but being smaller has it's advantages, for one thing it's noticeably cheaper (half the price for about half the page count...but this makes PP the price gougers somehow), and the softcover version is much easier to game with as I said. Easier to carry around, easier to reference rules with. Also, despite having fewer pages, they manage to fit in rules for most of the units for all armies in the game. What does the WHF book offer? A reference in the back, and I guess new rules for ONE race-specific unit. No updates for anyone, no army rules in the main book, just the main rules, missions, and then reams of reprinted fluff and a dwarf blimp. I'd much rather spend $30 for a softcover WHF book with just the 130 some-odd pages of rules that I need to play the game, than $75 for a huge tome full of bs.

The "bigger=better" mindset, it's the same kind of mindset that people make fun of PP fans for (that I myself have kinda picked on PP fans for), who try to justify the ridiculous prices of their metal models because "They're heavy, they feel like they're worth $60+." Just looks like hypocrisy to me, GW fans don't shy away from picking on PP for their prices, but stubbornly defend GW for theirs when neither side really has a leg to stand on.

Despite the amount of time I've supposedly spent on this topic, I don't really care. The only reason I've kept it up this long is because I find the responses I've gotten interesting. People are making weird statements and comparisons and I thought it would be fun to get people to explain themselves better. Turns out people don't like having to defend their claims and would prefer I just STFU and drink the Kool-Aid already.

"It's a good product! Definitely worth $80!"
"Why?"
"STFU GW HATER!"

Like I said though I really don't have anything against anyone who buys the book. It's your money and I don't give a damn what you do with it, and obviously if you want to keep playing Warhammer you kinda have to buy it, so I'm not going to pick on people for that. From the beginning I was pointing the finger at GW here and calling bs on them, because I personally think it's obvious what they've done, that is bloating the book up on purpose to make it seem like it's "worth" more. Seriously, has anyone read through the fluff of the new rulebook yet? How much of it is actually new and not just the same old crap reprinted on full color pages this time? Is any of it new? Or is it just like the 5th edition book, where everything is the same except for a couple of dates on a timeline and the Emperor's golden throne crapping out a little (and some new red and brown John Blanche scribbles)?


...all that said, I'll fully admit that the new WHF rulebook is a better product than before. They've FINALLY printed a rulebook in full color, it's got an enormous page count, and supposedly the quality of the book itself is pretty good (though I've heard from elsewhere that some store copies are falling apart). But in my opinion, they should have been up to this quality in the first place. They're finally doing work that seems worthy of a $50 price tag, and then sell it for $75. That's what bothers me so much.

I don't see anyone calling you a GW hater. What I see is people that know that GW is retailing an over-priced hobby, but we don't need you telling us that every other post..

Personally I'm getting it, the price is very high, but it's a weekends worth of wages for me, and being only 16 and living at home, this is ok. I can perfectly understand why some people may be angered by the price with other priorities, but the starter book will be up on ebay in september anyway for a much cheaper price, so till then you just have to sit out and wait.

Hopefully the game as a whole will be enough to convince you Sidstyler!

Sidstyler wrote:I'm just curious as to how people are judging the "quality" of this book, especially in comparison to what else is on the market right now. I looked at Warmachine and the Prime MKII book comes in a paperback ...

Hard back = More expensive then paperback ... also its only 256 pages So really what the hell is your point? A smaller paperback is cheaper then a larger hardback?

Well speaking as a veteran hobby person I think the extra pages on the rulebook, will not only be very inspiring for more than just gamming, but also its a deal maker for me.
So you have both gamers and hobbyists covered with this book.

If you just want rules you can always wait for the starter deals.

PP and GW are ridiculous expensive we all know that and as such we really have to select what we get these days, for me this rulebook is a good value because it inspires my modelling projects and rules wise is very detailed with lots of graphics etc... So I can pick up a game fast and easy if I choose to... My last miniature shopping was the new trolls and yes far from cheap but wicked nice kits.

Speaking in general lots of miniatures companies are pushing the prices up... PP, GW, Infinity, ALkemy, Artefactory, Mercs, Sodapop are some of the best outhere wich I have the pleasure to collect but you cannot really say they are that cheap... The more they rise prices the less I buy to the point of dropping my PP collections all together.
Its a expensive hobby if ride all waves of cool stuff.

I will get the rulebook and that will mean that I will not get Figone's taurus, one mini 40 euros, both overpriced yet the kind of things really worth getting IMO.
ALso its not only the size that makes the Book cost more... but it has a great influence on the final price.

Going by Sids defence of PP on other threads and bringing it up here I think its all starting to become clear...

Mick