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Puscifer wrote:I'm clearly not reading the entire book lol.

Can someone please clarify the rules for Holocaust?

Currently at work with no codex to hand.

One pally per unit can choose to take a psy test and shoot a S5 AP- 12" range pizza at someone. So with multi units of 1-3 models it gets silly if they all arrive via deep strike.

:-O

That's a bit harsh. Brilliant, but harsh.

Not entirely. It's still AP- and 12" range. It is limited in use, which is why it is rarely seen.

It is limited in use, which is why it is rarely seen

I use it way more in 6th than in 5th though as it seems to me the single paladin has more going for him in 6th than in 5th.

Also now the apothecary is actually wortwhile and he lacks a stormbolter, he can cast it.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

It is limited in use, which is why it is rarely seen

I use it way more in 6th than in 5th though as it seems to me the single paladin has more going for him in 6th than in 5th.

Also now the apothecary is actually wortwhile and he lacks a stormbolter, he can cast it.

Soladins are only worth it in Draigowing, a list that while good is severly hampered because of the several hard counters for it that exist.

As for the Apothecary, he's the same as before IMO; a good choice, but often 85pts you can't afford, especially given how durable 2+ and LOS already make the unit.

Nah, the apothecary is now worth his points because he saves plasma and other AP2 S7 fire, which was a major annoyance to paladins in 5th.

Draigo/Paladins/Support lists have, I think, got very much better in 6th than in 5th (though they need to be run somewhat differently). Certainly, lists that gave me trouble in 5th seem to me to be less effective versus (and admittedly modified) paladin build in 6th.

Overall, the combination of how wounds are allocated in shooting, LOS! and how challenges and assault wound allocation work means paladins seem actually better overall in 6th than in 5th. And in 5th they may not have been the best GK build, but they held their own.


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Nah, the apothecary is now worth his points because he saves plasma and other AP2 S7 fire, which was a major annoyance to paladins in 5th.

Draigo/Paladins/Support lists have, I think, got very much better in 6th than in 5th (though they need to be run somewhat differently). Certainly, lists that gave me trouble in 5th seem to me to be less effective versus (and admittedly modified) paladin build in 6th.

Overall, the combination of how wounds are allocated in shooting, LOS! and how challenges and assault wound allocation work means paladins seem actually better overall in 6th than in 5th. And in 5th they may not have been the best GK build, but they held their own.

I absolutely agree with Blood, the apothecary is absolutely worth it now. You now receive FNP against almost all MCs, S3 base powerfist attacks, plasma, and draigo now gets FNP against melta weapons.

Also, I have found that instead of running solodins in a draigo lists, that 2 paladin squads work miracles. Include 1 halberd and 1 hammer they can go after units or tie up other units for a round or two and still hide effectively on an objective if needed. My solodins in 5th always managed to die, but now running drops of 2 paladins they are much more survivable and can put out damage if needed.

Plasma isn't something that worries Paladins in my experience, unless there's a lot of it, as (a) it doesn't kill them outright like normal Terminators, and (b) there's normally a character with a good invul. at the front. In the case of the lists ye are talking about, that would be Draigo.

Yes, Draigowing is much better in 6th than it was in 5th, but there a lot of better Grey Knight lists that can be built and that don't have a several auto-lose match-ups. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that something that got much better in the new edition is automatically the new 'it' for the army.

As for the Apothecary, like I said, he's worth it, but like before it is still 85pts you could be spending on a unit or units that actually do really need it. My 5 Paladins come to 345pts as it is with making it 430pts, especially since as tough as they are, they can still only kill so much, and as their points go that high they struggle to make them back.

The apothecary should really only go in the Deathstar Paladin Squad. He's a complete waste in anything smaller IMO.


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Oh, one more thing...

Do Nemesis Doomfists make Dreadknights STR 10?
I read somewhere that they don't.

Puscifer wrote:Do Nemesis Doomfists make Dreadknights STR 10?
I read somewhere that they don't.

Yes, they do. Now it applys to every Doomfist, not just the Dreadnought ones for being bipod.

I just realized that a deep striking storm raven acts like a drop pod?

since it's classified as a skimmer, and if you hit something that it shouldn't, you move it by the closes distance till it isn't in the bad spot, right?

How does it work for the flier rules?

sudojoe wrote:I just realized that a deep striking storm raven acts like a drop pod?

since it's classified as a skimmer, and if you hit something that it shouldn't, you move it by the closes distance till it isn't in the bad spot, right?

How does it work for the flier rules?

Nope, with a Storm Raven you can choose what mode you are in when you enter, so if you drop in while Zooming (remember you count as having moved Cruising Speed so you don't crash), you ignore terrain altogether.

BTW unless something changed, Skimmers don't have that rule either, it is specific to Drop Pods.

I was getting that move thing from page 83 since it says if you end your movement over friendly or enemy models, you can move it out of the way.

Not really sure how I'm supposed to play that thing

Puscifer wrote:The apothecary should really only go in the Deathstar Paladin Squad. He's a complete waste in anything smaller IMO.


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Oh, one more thing...

Do Nemesis Doomfists make Dreadknights STR 10?
I read somewhere that they don't.

In 5th, DCCWs had different wording. They only doubled the Str of walkers.

In 6th they have been changed to just a flat double str and AP2.

What happens when Draigowings end up facing off against heavy GK Storm Ravens, I can see very bad things happening.

With Pskers being the rave in 6th Storm Ravens are a must for any Grey Knight army IMO, what better way to autopunk those pschic MCs, Librarians, and Farseers let alone the damage they can do do Grey Knights, 4 well placed Mindstrike Missiles will kill Draigo an the missiles are usually an afterthought.

I honestly wish that we had access to storm talons and drop pods X_x

especially for the fact that GK's when I first ever read about them came down from drop pods in that first black library novel.

I wouldn't say ravens are a must have by any means (though I run 3 currently at 2000 points with my paladin list). Ravens are good but they're not must haves.

I agree, paladin lists are at a disadvantage against other GK lists with Ravens. But I think in 6th, whatever list you make from whatever codex, you're going to run into a competitive list that will have you at a disadvantage. I'm not yet convinced of this, but it's my ever growing suspicion that 6th has actually made 'all comers' lists (in the sense of stand a decent chance against any other list) effectively impossible (at least at most points values).

sudojoe wrote:I honestly wish that we had access to storm talons and drop pods X_x

especially for the fact that GK's when I first ever read about them came down from drop pods in that first black library novel.

Ravens are better than Talons.


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Blood and Slaughter wrote:I wouldn't say ravens are a must have by any means (though I run 3 currently at 2000 points with my paladin list). Ravens are good but they're not must haves.

I agree, paladin lists are at a disadvantage against other GK lists with Ravens. But I think in 6th, whatever list you make from whatever codex, you're going to run into a competitive list that will have you at a disadvantage. I'm not yet convinced of this, but it's my ever growing suspicion that 6th has actually made 'all comers' lists (in the sense of stand a decent chance against any other list) effectively impossible (at least at most points values).

I dunno Ravens are good against basically anything, I think that they help build a great all comers list, with an Inquisitor you have excellent reserve modification, and you can plan out when the Ravens come in, if you are playing against flyers an go 1st you can prevent them from coming in until you have a good opportunity to hammer enemy flyers, and if your opponent is without air support they come in on a 2+ on turn 2. Fly on nuke the most serious threat to your flyers. I believe strongly in using Storm Ravens as transports although I lost 9 guys out of a 10 man Purifier squad an Raven to a sneaky Vendetta. My opponent ignored the lone Purifier not wanting to shoot a squandron of Leman Russes at it, an with a good charge roll I was able to wreck two tanks with that Purifier.

Yes, but the Talon has some nice qualities. Not to mention its cheaper so you could field a Flyer without spending as many points on it. And lots of players, including myself, don't use the transport capabilities of the Stormraven so those are wasted points(its far too risky for the unit inside)

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but the Talon has some nice qualities. Not to mention its cheaper so you could field a Flyer without spending as many points on it. And lots of players, including myself, don't use the transport capabilities of the Stormraven so those are wasted points(its far too risky for the unit inside)

Yes it is risky, but the reward outweighs the risk IMO just don't stick an expensive squad of Paladins in there I like running Purifiers with Incinerators out of a Raven. Orcs would die at the sight of it going into hover mode .

You could always ally to get a Talon, although one isn't gonna do a whole lot.

4 well placed Mindstrike Missiles will kill Draigo

Yes. And one well placed lascannon shot will destroy a raven. I don't see it's that big a thing given that you'll tend to need 6 or more mindstrikes fired to kill Draigo. Hence two ravens worth of firing and it'll either take two turns or one raven will have to drop into hover mode (or destruct mode as we should perhaps term it).

I like ravens and I think they may be the best flier in the game in a absolute sense (not point for point). But they're not essential.

If Ravens aren't a must, how do people plan on dealing with multiple flyers? And please God don't say Psyfledreads because they do not do it.

BTW comparing hitting Draigo with Mindstrikes with hitting a Raven with a Lascannon is ridiculous. On average if you pump the 4 missiles into Draigo you will hit ~2 and that's 2 wounds, plus any other guys around him hit by the blasts. On the other hand, a single Lascannon has a 1/6 chance of hitting a Raven.

Well, Ravens can only shoot 2 missiles a turn, and then at least 2 more turns to swing back around for the second salvo. Unless you have 2 ravens, in which case I think its way too much trouble just to kill Draigo.

Well dreadnoughts wit dual autocannon/psybolts should score one hit each with every salvo, which is decent against weaker fliers (ie those with low AV).

Add to that a quad gun and you have decent (not stellar, but decent) anti-flier that should generally down one a turn. You also have to consider that running more than 3-4 flyers does have drawbacks with regard to manoueverability and weapons on the table at any one time. At the moment flyers seem great not because codices lack flakk missiles (which everyone seems to assume thay will get . . . ) but because people are still finding their feet with regard to how big a threat flyers pose to their winning the mission.

mc psycannon aren't too shabby anti-flyer. If you have eight shots with two re-rolls (one for each mc), you should be scoring a S7 rending hit or two.

Purifier spam with razorbacks will have a lot of volume of fire that can seriously threaten flyers (of course most purifier lists are still thinking in terms of having the troops inside rhinos, which I think is no longer optimal, but we'll see. . .)

Even Psybolt armed troops can hurt alot of the flyers out there. Anything that isn't a Stormraven or Vendetta can at least be glanced.

8 Psybolt armed troops will cause about one damage result to AV10 a turn.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, Ravens can only shoot 2 missiles a turn, and then at least 2 more turns to swing back around for the second salvo. Unless you have 2 ravens, in which case I think its way too much trouble just to kill Draigo.

Forgot about the missile limit, you are right. However it is still not parallel to a single Lascannon hitting a Raven.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Well dreadnoughts wit dual autocannon/psybolts should score one hit each with every salvo, which is decent against weaker fliers (ie those with low AV).

Add to that a quad gun and you have decent (not stellar, but decent) anti-flier that should generally down one a turn.

No, Psyfledreads get half a hit on average. So let's be generous and say between 3 you get 2 hits. Against a Raven or Vendetta that's 1 glance on average. Quad Gun gets just over 3 hits and thus 1 glance/pen. If a pen there's only a 1/6 chance it destroys it. So exactly how is 3 Psylfemen and a Quad Gun one flyer downed a turn.

People seem to be forgetting you need 6's to hit, or ignoring it. You need 6 shots on average to hit even; then you need to roll damage. And that's with guns that are strong enough. People are vastly overestimating their ability to shoot flyers down.

For the record I've played several games already, a few of which using 3 Dreads. They didn't cut it even once against just a single Raven. Ye also need to remember that sure if you throw enough firepower at a flyer you will hit and eventually destroy it, but since when is it good tactics to throw a whole army of firepower at something they are unlikely to damage? If you take the units out of a vacuum and do the math, you will see that adequate dedicated anti-air is required for all lists, anfr Grey Knights that's either Ravens or allies.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:If Ravens aren't a must, how do people plan on dealing with multiple flyers? And please God don't say Psyfledreads because they do not do it.

BTW comparing hitting Draigo with Mindstrikes with hitting a Raven with a Lascannon is ridiculous. On average if you pump the 4 missiles into Draigo you will hit ~2 and that's 2 wounds, plus any other guys around him hit by the blasts. On the other hand, a single Lascannon has a 1/6 chance of hitting a Raven.

followed by a 50/50 shot to pen, followed by a 2 in chance to wreck it. A singe lascannon would have to roll extremely well to manage that.

Psfledreads would be better if they were allowed to fire, anything Str8 TL with 4 shots dies first. Followed by anything else high Str TL an 3 Storm Ravens can make that happen, hell Blood Angel Storm Ravens would be better because they could pump out an additional 6 Str 8 Ap1 shots along with the MM an LC/PC


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Grey Templar wrote:Well, Ravens can only shoot 2 missiles a turn, and then at least 2 more turns to swing back around for the second salvo. Unless you have 2 ravens, in which case I think its way too much trouble just to kill Draigo.

I run three an am not shy about putting them into hover mode, thats 6 in round 2 and another 6 in round three Draigo and several of his Paladins are dead at the end of round 3.

Um, no.

6s to hit, with a reroll for twin-linking is 11/36 chance of a hit. 4 shots, your chance of no hits is about 5% per dreadnought. That's a 95% chance of at least one hit per dreadnought. So let's be conservative and say 3 hits for 3 dreadnoughts.

Flyers can be anything from AV10 - AV12. Let's say AV12 to be as pessimistic as possible. Okay now you have a 50% chance per S8 hit of a glance or pen. So we can bamnk on our dreadnoughts reliably doing 1 or 2 HP damage.

Quad gun of course will be hitting 8/9 of the time with 4 shots. So here we're looking at 3 hits as a conservative average. It's only S7 so we need 5s to glance. We should get one.

So against the toughest flyer in the game we've actually got a very good chance of bringing it down with 3 dreadnoughts and a single quad gun.

Very good points valace.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Um, no.

6s to hit, with a reroll for twin-linking is 11/36 chance of a hit. 4 shots, your chance of no hits is about 5% per dreadnought. That's a 95% chance of at least one hit per dreadnought. So let's be conservative and say 3 hits for 3 dreadnoughts.

Flyers can be anything from AV10 - AV12. Let's say AV12 to be as pessimistic as possible. Okay now you have a 50% chance per S8 hit of a glance or pen. So we can bamnk on our dreadnoughts reliably doing 1 or 2 HP damage.

Quad gun of course will be hitting 8/9 of the time with 4 shots. So here we're looking at 3 hits as a conservative average. It's only S7 so we need 5s to glance. We should get one.

So against the toughest flyer in the game we've actually got a very good chance of bringing it down with 3 dreadnoughts and a single quad gun.

Thats assuming they get to fire, thats why I don't mind putting my flyers into hover mode, after 2 rounds of shooting from them the opponents ability to damage them should be limited and if I lose a Storm Raven in turn 3 oh well I have boots on the ground and the enemy should be bleeding pretty bad.