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There's nothing to debunk. Some farmers took the blades off their farm scythes and stuck them onto some sticks to make a spear (later purpose built weapons of a similar design were later made). It's rather simple Peasant uprisings have to arm themselves you know (in a similar manner, Tridents and Partisans were likely developed from various kinds of farming forks and hoes).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:36:01
It was basically an axe with a grabbing hook on the tip. useful for chopping or snagging stuff around a farmstead. It proved equally adept at hacking through armor or dragging an armored knight off his horse.
And hey, a scythe is better than nothing.
You understand right that just because the name has scythe in it doesn't mean they took the farm scythe head and stick it to a stick. It was a totally different weapon made from scratch. Watch my debunk videos.
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LordofHats wrote: There's nothing to debunk. Some farmers took the blades off their farm scythes and stuck them onto some sticks to make a spear (later purpose built weapons of a similar design were later made). It's rather simple Peasant uprisings have to arm themselves you know (in a similar manner, Tridents and Partisans were likely developed from various kinds of farming forks and hoes).
Did you not watch the video? The farm tool were too thin. and War scythe were a weapons of its own design.
It is like I were to say that the Chinese use the Chop Stick as a weapon because they can poke you in the eye.
Stop it. The guy in the video debunk the same book, the same picture, the theory ... everything you pulled from the net was debunk by this guy.
done
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:40:47
I don't subscribe to the YouTube school of history. I went to real school for that
The farm tool were too thin.
Yeah which is probably why someone decided to make a fully weaponized version of an improvised weapon Improvised weapons are rarely perfect. It's why they're called 'improvised.' You know. Like Molotov Cocktails, Kamas, the Monk's Spade, Axes, and Bo staffs
The guy in the video debunk
If by debunked you mean misrepresented then yes. I've seen that video before and I've had this argument before. The War Scythe was originally developed as an improvised weapon by peasant farmers in Denmark and the Netherlands. That's not really an aspect of history up for contention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:50:10
I don't subscribe to the YouTube school of history. I went to real school for that
The farm tool were too thin.
Yeah which is probably why someone decided to make a fully weaponized version of an improvised weapon Improvised weapons are rarely perfect. It's why they're called 'improvised.' You know. Like Molotov Cocktails, Kamas, the Monk's Spade, Axes, and Bo staffs
The guy in the video debunk
If by debunked you mean misrepresented then yes.
Have fun dude, I think everybody who read your post and saw the video clips are laughing at this comical belief of farmer using scythe as a weapon. It is a popular myth... but a myth none the less.....
Sorry to destroyed your myth... don't watch the clip. Just keep think there are Santa and farmers upraising who went to their farm house and decide to pick up a scythe instead a wood chopping axe or a kitchen knife type and tie to a stick to make a better spear (if he wanted a spear).... nope lets get his weird stick and a thin grass cutting blade and use as a weapon! That farmer was the first guy to die in the battle.
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Akragth wrote: I think someone's confused about just what an improvised weapon means.
Again, watch the video. You can improvised with a can of tin beads as a weapon. Please watch the video.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 06:55:02
You aren't comprehending what he's saying about IMPROVISED weapons.
No farmer, if he was part of a revolt/uprising would take his scythe into battle without some alterations.
Also, having manuscripts for a fighting style doesn't prove nor disprove that scythes or other weapons saw actual combat.... It shows that someone somewhere along the line thought about how such a weapon would be used, if the need arose and developed a fighting style based on it.
david choe wrote: Sorry to destroyed your myth... don't watch the clip.
I find it more comical that you're still throwing around youtube videos.
That you seem to miss the distinction I drew between the farming implemented and how it was converted into a weapon (despite my use of plain English) is just icing
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: No farmer, if he was part of a revolt/uprising would take his scythe into battle without some alterations.
They were actually pretty smart. Cavalry were a dominate force at the time, and axes and knives weren't going to help you get a trained soldier off his horse. If I was a farmer, I'd grab any sharp object I could find and put it on the end of a stick
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 07:00:23
Ensis Ferrae wrote: You aren't comprehending what he's saying about IMPROVISED weapons.
No farmer, if he was part of a revolt/uprising would take his scythe into battle without some alterations.
Also, having manuscripts for a fighting style doesn't prove nor disprove that scythes or other weapons saw actual combat.... It shows that someone somewhere along the line thought about how such a weapon would be used, if the need arose and developed a fighting style based on it.
I understand the word improvised, but did you not watch the video. The guy even said that the improvised is BS. It was all a myth.
The improvised is about as much as somebody who use a scissor and tie it to a stick to make a battle Pike axe. I'm sure some farmer might done that, but very very very very few.. about the same chance as scissor tie to a stick to make a murder weapon. there are other weapons to improvise that would make better weapon. NO body would improvised a farm scythe. The only reason I can think of, is the farmer was hold a scythe in hand and was attacked...that is the improvised part.
This debate should be over by now about this scythe myth.
1 - the blade is very thin and too thin to fight with
2 - the damn thing is hard to hold as a battle weapon
3 - a normal wood staff would be much more effective.
This is classic hollywood and Grime reaper image that makes this myth alive and well.
Show me a real history proof of this improvised. Just give me the logical why? You are a farmer and you are PREPARING , it is not like you are being attack right now. You would pick that worst weapon as a weapon? You have better tools to choose to take...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 07:05:30
Akragth wrote: I think someone's confused about just what an improvised weapon means.
Again, watch the video. You can improvised with a can of tin beads as a weapon. Please watch the video.
And? We're talking about peasants, in medieval times. You'd use whatever you could to defend your home; a pitchfork, a thick tree branch, whatever was within reach--including a scythe if needs must. That's what an improvised weapon is. Nothing you've shown debunks that. ''It's bad for fighting with'' is simply not the same as ''it was never used to fight with and the idea of that is entirely a myth.''
Akragth wrote: I think someone's confused about just what an improvised weapon means.
Again, watch the video. You can improvised with a can of tin beads as a weapon. Please watch the video.
And? We're talking about peasants, in medieval times. You'd use whatever you could to defend your home; a pitchfork, a thick tree branch, whatever was within reach--including a scythe if needs must. That's what an improvised weapon is. Nothing you've shown debunks that. ''It's bad for fighting with'' is simply not the same as ''it was never used to fight with and the idea of that is entirely a myth.''
LOL. yeah what about the part that pitch fork is better, why take a scythe. A kitchen knife and a stick would be better.
You understand about myth in this topic right. Just because one or two farmer who was attacked by a bandit while he have a scythe in his had and use it... it doesn't mean that this tool should ever enter the topic of Farmer use scythe as a weapon.
Just stop it and let this part of scythe as a weapon be done with it. The video touch every base of discussion of "WHAT IF"...DONE Lets move on....
david choe wrote: LOL. yeah what about the part that pitch fork is better, why take a scythe. A kitchen knife and a stick would be better.
You understand about myth in this topic right. Just because one or two farmer who was attacked by a bandit while he have a scythe in his had and use it... it doesn't mean that this tool should ever enter the topic of Farmer use scythe as a weapon.
Just stop it and let this part of scythe as a weapon be done with it. The video touch every base of discussion of "WHAT IF"...DONE Lets move on....
improvised
ˈɪmprəvʌɪzd/
adjective
created and performed spontaneously or without preparation; impromptu.
"an improvised short speech"
done or made using whatever is available; makeshift.
"we slept on improvised beds"
You're acting as if this is someone taking pick from a wide variety of weapons, with time to prepare. That's literally the opposite of what improvised means.
david choe wrote: Sorry to destroyed your myth... don't watch the clip.
I find it more comical that you're still throwing around youtube videos.
That you seem to miss the distinction I drew between the farming implemented and how it was converted into a weapon (despite my use of plain English) is just icing
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: No farmer, if he was part of a revolt/uprising would take his scythe into battle without some alterations.
They were actually pretty smart. Cavalry were a dominate force at the time, and axes and knives weren't going to help you get a trained soldier off his horse. If I was a farmer, I'd grab any sharp object I could find and put it on the end of a stick
Listen... do you know that the farm scythe blade is freaking paper thin? It won't do gak in battle. It is not a battle axe head or a wood axe head. That scythe is a really bad farm tool. I know you already saw the video and feel silly ... but keep going with this is just being childish and silly don't you think?
I mean we are men right, lets just accepted that you made an error and you don't know about this part of the history and stand corrected.
david choe wrote: LOL. yeah what about the part that pitch fork is better, why take a scythe. A kitchen knife and a stick would be better.
You understand about myth in this topic right. Just because one or two farmer who was attacked by a bandit while he have a scythe in his had and use it... it doesn't mean that this tool should ever enter the topic of Farmer use scythe as a weapon.
Just stop it and let this part of scythe as a weapon be done with it. The video touch every base of discussion of "WHAT IF"...DONE Lets move on....
improvised
ˈɪmprəvʌɪzd/
adjective
created and performed spontaneously or without preparation; impromptu.
"an improvised short speech"
done or made using whatever is available; makeshift.
"we slept on improvised beds"
You're acting as if this is someone taking pick from a wide variety of weapons, with time to prepare. That's literally the opposite of what improvised means.
Listen.. improvise have two meaning.
On the spot or not on the spot.
If on the spot, anything can be a weapon. This is not what we are talking about. If you suggested this...they you fail in this debate because everything from can of beads and my shoe can be an improvise on the spot weapon.
We all know that the improvise is not on the spot and you have time to "create" a weapon. They guy in the video explains that if you have the time to improvise... you have time to pick other tools to improvise from. Things like wood axe, pitch fork, kitchen sharp object, and at worst ... get a wooden club or stick.
NOBODY intentionally improvise a scythe. This is the myth that is being debunk.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 07:16:34
I mean we are men right, lets just accepted that you made an error and you don't know about this part of the history and stand corrected.
Your lazy, half-arsed researched youtube video doesn't "prove" anything though. Having looked at a couple of his videos, he really REALLY comes across as someone who doesn't know gak about what he's talking about... case in point, watch the "mace" video. I'm sorry, but "spiky bit" is NOT an actual name for part of a mace or hammer.
I never said the scythe was an outstanding weapon. I agreed with others, that in a real pinch, it would do.
Let's put together a scenario... We're all a group of rather disgruntled peasants, and we band together to revolt against our "lawful" lord. So we all grab what implements we have; Pitchforks, hammers, scythes and the like.... The local lord rounds up his couple dozen knights to meet us on the battle field... He's going to pummel us into the dirt.... Well, thing is, we have a sizeable numbers advantage, so we're going to "clump" up and swarm knights, get them on the ground via hitting them, kill them and... holy crap!!!! now a couple of us can drop our pitchforks or scythes, or whatever, and get a real fething weapon, like a sword!
Given that it's been in use for thousands of years, I think it's a pretty good farming tool
I mean we are men right,
Damn straight.
And men love bacon. Literally, and figuratively
you don't know about this part of the history and stand corrected.
It isn't even one part of history. Ancient Greek sources describe the Hittites as forcibly conscripting farmers into the armies who carried nothing but farming implements (including scythes) into battle. Granted the 'scythe' the Greeks described was basically this thing;
And it probably wasn't much longer than a short sword but the Hittites didn't really care if their slave army was properly equipped. They were just there to die anyway
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 07:23:56
david choe wrote: LOL. yeah what about the part that pitch fork is better, why take a scythe. A kitchen knife and a stick would be better.
You understand about myth in this topic right. Just because one or two farmer who was attacked by a bandit while he have a scythe in his had and use it... it doesn't mean that this tool should ever enter the topic of Farmer use scythe as a weapon.
Just stop it and let this part of scythe as a weapon be done with it. The video touch every base of discussion of "WHAT IF"...DONE Lets move on....
improvised
ˈɪmprəvʌɪzd/
adjective
created and performed spontaneously or without preparation; impromptu.
"an improvised short speech"
done or made using whatever is available; makeshift.
"we slept on improvised beds"
You're acting as if this is someone taking pick from a wide variety of weapons, with time to prepare. That's literally the opposite of what improvised means.
Listen.. improvise have two meaning.
On the spot or not on the spot.
If on the spot, anything can be a weapon. This is not what we are talking about. If you suggested this...they you fail in this debate because everything from can of beads and my shoe can be an improvise on the spot weapon.
We all know that the improvise is not on the spot and you have time to "create" a weapon. They guy in the video explains that if you have the time to improvise... you have time to pick other tools to improvise from. Things like wood axe, pitch fork, kitchen sharp object, and at worst ... get a wooden club or stick.
NOBODY intentionally improvise a scythe. This is the myth that is being debunk.
Quite frankly I can't tell if it's a language barrier at play here, or not. I know what improvised means. I literally just posted what it means. Literally. In the very post you quoted.
You are confusing ''it'd be a rubbish weapon'' with ''it was never, ever used as a weapon''. Lots of things are used as improvised weapons. It's literally what the term means. Sure, it'd be a shockingly poor weapon, but if it's all you had, then it's all you had.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 07:23:01
Also imagine; You're a "lawful lord" who wields complete authority over the local peasants. Your brother in law over in the next manor recently had to put down some unruly peasants who tried to overthrow him with their axes and knives. Well the obvious solution is to take away their axes and knives! Then they can't revolt! *looks out window at angry mob with pitch forks, scythes, some axes I probably missed, hoes, and anything else they could throw together in a couple of hours (including sticks with nails in them!)*
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 07:31:46
Nah, unless I am friends with a fairly competent smith who has time to work, I would rather take a fire hardened wooden stick into battle than some incompetently hammered wheat cutting implement. Because in the time it takes to make one of those I could make like nine replacements, and maybe a solid cudgel too.
Of course I would also make some caltrops since I have a superior modern brain and then I would wait for some lord to come after me and I would very rapidly get some decent gear off his corpse.
david choe wrote: LOL. yeah what about the part that pitch fork is better, why take a scythe. A kitchen knife and a stick would be better.
You understand about myth in this topic right. Just because one or two farmer who was attacked by a bandit while he have a scythe in his had and use it... it doesn't mean that this tool should ever enter the topic of Farmer use scythe as a weapon.
Just stop it and let this part of scythe as a weapon be done with it. The video touch every base of discussion of "WHAT IF"...DONE Lets move on....
improvised
ˈɪmprəvʌɪzd/
adjective
created and performed spontaneously or without preparation; impromptu.
"an improvised short speech"
done or made using whatever is available; makeshift.
"we slept on improvised beds"
You're acting as if this is someone taking pick from a wide variety of weapons, with time to prepare. That's literally the opposite of what improvised means.
Listen.. improvise have two meaning.
On the spot or not on the spot.
If on the spot, anything can be a weapon. This is not what we are talking about. If you suggested this...they you fail in this debate because everything from can of beads and my shoe can be an improvise on the spot weapon.
We all know that the improvise is not on the spot and you have time to "create" a weapon. They guy in the video explains that if you have the time to improvise... you have time to pick other tools to improvise from. Things like wood axe, pitch fork, kitchen sharp object, and at worst ... get a wooden club or stick.
NOBODY intentionally improvise a scythe. This is the myth that is being debunk.
Quite frankly I can't tell if it's a language barrier at play here, or not. I know what improvised means. I literally just posted what it means. Literally. In the very post you quoted.
You are confusing ''it'd be a rubbish weapon'' with ''it was never, ever used as a weapon''. Lots of things are used as improvised weapons. It's literally what the term means. Sure, it'd be a shockingly poor weapon, but if it's all you had, then it's all you had.
So what does all this mean... the world of farm scythe as weapon keeps getting smaller and smaller for you.
First - Farmer use it or modified it.
Then - well I mean... if they had too, it was their last choice of weapon in the barn because the uncle took the pitch fork, and the brother took the axe. He had only the scythe or bare fist... ok
OR
The get a black smith to reforge the blade on the stick to make a spear or just twist the blade from the scythe on the scythe handle to cut better like in all the movies. The blade is not even set like in the movies and the blade is thin. Too thin as a weapon. If you have to reforging ability and to remove all this crap.... it is better to get a long stick and sharpen the point. Come on man...
It is a hollywood myth and comic book of grime reaper that make this soooo cool and scary weapon what it is today.
I suppose but I imagine a cynical mob kind of just sits around and acts depressed I mean what's the fun in being in a mob if there aren't at least some torches involved (and maybe a trampling death or two?)
I suppose but I imagine a cynical mob kind of just sits around and acts depressed I mean what's the fun in being in a mob if there aren't at least some torches involved (and maybe a trampling death or two?)
Well, the whole mob doesn't have to be cynical. I just see myself hanging around the back doubting that our momentary fervor will be enough to change the overarching socioeconomic conditions that create and enforce serfdom whilst my co-mobsters are slaughtered by a couple of guardsmen and overfed nobles in decent armor until I throw some improvised caltrops in an opportune moment and abscond with some quality gear so as to pretend to be a hedge knight or something until I can slease my way into a position of relative comfort somewhere, say as armsmaster to some down at the heels but wealthy in comparison to my former means noble household. Then I simply disappear into the night with whatever loot I can manage after a few years and set myself up in Outremer in reasonable comfort for however many years until some plague or another carries me off.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 08:08:11
I suppose but I imagine a cynical mob kind of just sits around and acts depressed I mean what's the fun in being in a mob if there aren't at least some torches involved (and maybe a trampling death or two?)
Well, the whole mob doesn't have to be cynical. I just see myself hanging around the back doubting that our momentary fervor will be enough to change the overarching socioeconomic conditions that create and enforce serfdom whilst my co-mobsters are slaughtered by a couple of guardsmen and overfed nobles in decent armor until I throw some improvised caltrops in an opportune moment and abscond with some quality gear so as to pretend to be a hedge knight or something until I can slease my way into a position of relative comfort somewhere, say as armsmaster to some down at the heels but wealthy in comparison to my former means noble household. Then I simply disappear into the night with whatever loot I can manage after a few years and set myself up in Outremer in reasonable comfort for however many years until some plague or another carries me off.
I mean we are men right, lets just accepted that you made an error and you don't know about this part of the history and stand corrected.
Your lazy, half-arsed researched youtube video doesn't "prove" anything though. Having looked at a couple of his videos, he really REALLY comes across as someone who doesn't know gak about what he's talking about... case in point, watch the "mace" video. I'm sorry, but "spiky bit" is NOT an actual name for part of a mace or hammer.
I never said the scythe was an outstanding weapon. I agreed with others, that in a real pinch, it would do.
Let's put together a scenario... We're all a group of rather disgruntled peasants, and we band together to revolt against our "lawful" lord. So we all grab what implements we have; Pitchforks, hammers, scythes and the like.... The local lord rounds up his couple dozen knights to meet us on the battle field... He's going to pummel us into the dirt.... Well, thing is, we have a sizeable numbers advantage, so we're going to "clump" up and swarm knights, get them on the ground via hitting them, kill them and... holy crap!!!! now a couple of us can drop our pitchforks or scythes, or whatever, and get a real fething weapon, like a sword!
Look I know what you are saying.. but it is an hollywood depiction of this image of farmer scythe. Nobody would ever choose this weapon in the barn if they have other option like axes, pitch fork, or common sticks. You are buying into the myth of farmer scythe. If enough movies and images of people in the days pick up cast iron pan as a weapon or a rolling pen..it is just a movie.. not real. Cooks don't use iron pan or rolling pen as weapon.
So if they have no option but the scythe... in the mob of 100 farmers... 3 guys have farm scythe and you all are defending and upholding this as true? Those 3 idiots farmers never make it back after the battle.
Lastly, why is it important that this myth must be true? I mean..... none of you guys sell scythe right?
david choe wrote: OR
The get a black smith to reforge the blade on the stick to make a spear or just twist the blade from the scythe on the scythe handle to cut better like in all the movies. The blade is not even set like in the movies and the blade is thin. Too thin as a weapon. If you have to reforging ability and to remove all this crap.... it is better to get a long stick and sharpen the point. Come on man...
Lol. You're ignoring the ''improvised'' part of improvised weapon, again. You're talking on the subject as if they lived in some sort of ideal world where every attack came with warning, where every peasant had the means to reforge weapons, had access to a range of tools or could afford/had access to better weaponry. They didn't. That's the ideal world, but reality is something else entirely.
You are taking the fact it would be a poor weapon and, without any real evidence to support it, conferring that the idea of it ever being used as a weapon is a myth. Before you say ''watch the video'' again, no. Not only does your video not disprove the notion that it was ever used as a weapon, the bloke who made it wasn't around in medieval times, so it's only his speculation to begin with. You cannot, and have not, proved anything on the matter.
Indeed, mere common sense would suggest that if needs must, you'd use whatever was at your disposal to defend yourself, whether that's taking one item you own and using it to create another, or just using the item itself. Would it be an ideal weapon? No. Improvised weapons rarely are. But would you go bare knuckle because your brother took the pitchfork, and you're left with just the scythe? Nope. Poor weapon or not, it is better than punching an armed opponent. At the very least it can keep them at arm's length.
It is a hollywood myth and comic book of grime reaper that make this soooo cool and scary weapon what it is today.
Seriously, your comprehension is sorely lacking if you believe anyone here is arguing that farmers were armed with the weapon that the grim reaper uses.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 08:25:35
Peasant uprisings have to arm themselves you know 
(in a similar manner, Tridents and Partisans were likely developed from various kinds of farming forks and hoes).
I mean what's the fun in being in a mob if there aren't at least some torches involved (and maybe a trampling death or two?)