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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

Can the mawloc attack hit a flyer or FMC automatically?

Discuss.

Just thinking about him popping out like a sandworm of arrakis is making me giggle.

   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

No because you can only snap shot against fliers and it is a blast marker, which can not hit fliers.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

lol FALSE. It's not a shooting attack, it can hit a flyer.

 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential






Victoria, B.C. Canada

Anything using the small or large template cannot hit flyers at all unless it has the skyfire rule.



Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.

No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




it's not a shooting attack. those limits applied to the types of shooting attacks allowed against flyers
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Fond du Lac, Wi

sfshilo wrote:lol FALSE. It's not a shooting attack, it can hit a flyer.
Actually it will be unable to hit the flyer. Even if it is not a shooting attack, and can bypass the snap shot rule, you're missing the part about that flyers cannot be hit by a blast marker. Those rules are spelled out quite clearly in the flyers rules, so before you call someone wrong, present the rules to back up your argument.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”
-Einstein 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential






Victoria, B.C. Canada

jcress410 wrote:it's not a shooting attack. those limits applied to the types of shooting attacks allowed against flyers


P 81 it says nothing about 'shooting attacks' just that blast templates, large blast templates and flame templates cannot hit zooming flyers at all.



Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.

No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

sfshilo wrote:lol FALSE. It's not a shooting attack, it can hit a flyer.

Re-read the zooming fliers rules.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

Its not a shooting attack, it is not resolved in the shooting phase, nor is it a blast weapon so 'Hard to Hit' doesn't seem to be relevant.

EDIT
To further clarify

"Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. Template, blast and large blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode."

Terror from the deep is not a shot, not a blast weapon; it simply damages things underneath the template.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 02:56:41


   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

And I quote, "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots"

It also states, "Template, blast and large blast WEAPONS cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

It's not a weapon, it's a result of the mawlac exploding up out of the ground and destroying everything in it's path.

If it's not a weapon, it can hit a flyer. Notice it states, SHOTS; not area effects, not terrain effects, not non-shooting pskers attacks.

Flyers are not immune to all damage as much as people want them to be. (I should know I have alot of vendettas)

 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Fond du Lac, Wi

jcress410 wrote:it's not a shooting attack. those limits applied to the types of shooting attacks allowed against flyers
Actually not quite, it says template, blast, and large blast weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode. So if the flyer happened to be in hover mode, then Terror from the Deep could hit said flyer.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”
-Einstein 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Terror from the deep is NOT a weapon, it's a giant MC bursting out of the ground wrecking everyones day.

 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

"Template, blast and large blast WEAPONS cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

Template, Blast, and large blast can not hit fliers.

(Though it it would not matter if it could, 1 Str 6 hit is hardly anything to fear, and zooming fliers have a cover save anyway.)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/07/03 02:59:13


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Starting on page 50 the weapons in the game are defined. You will not find the mawlac area effect there as it is not a weapon or shooting attack.

 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

DeathReaper wrote:anything used to inflict damage on the enemy is a weapon, be it a Psychic power, or special rule a model has.

I'd love a page number for that.

and zooming fliers have a cover save anyway

Thats the funny thing here, Terror from the Deep is resolved in the movement phase. Evade only works in the shooting phase.

I'll admit I'm not posting this cause I think I found some sort of powerful counter to flyers, I just found it funny.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 03:01:07


   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Fond du Lac, Wi

sfshilo wrote:And I quote, "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots"

It also states, "Template, blast and large blast WEAPONS cannot hit flyers in zoom mode."

It's not a weapon, it's a result of the mawlac exploding up out of the ground and destroying everything in it's path.

If it's not a weapon, it can hit a flyer. Notice it states, SHOTS; not area effects, not terrain effects, not non-shooting pskers attacks.

Flyers are not immune to all damage as much as people want them to be. (I should know I have alot of vendettas)
The thing is, it is resolved as a weapon. It is a strength 6 AP 2 large blast. What it represents doesn't matter, what does matter is if the flyer is zooming someone is attempting to hit it with a large blast marker. Psychic powers are not weapons per say, but they do mimic them, and a psychic power with a blast marker is unable to hit a flyer.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”
-Einstein 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

It also hits the back armor, which is 10 for most flyers....S6 AP 2 is suddenly very nasty.

 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential






Victoria, B.C. Canada

This reminds me of the ridiculous "psykers are not carrying a weapon" because it didn't explicitly say psychic shooting attacks are a weapon debate awhile ago.

If you want to insist your strength 6 AP 2 large blast that allows cover saves isn't a weapon that's fine but good luck finding opponents.

Considering flyers also cannot be assaulted you can't possibly imagine it's intended for Mawlocs to be able to hit flyers when nothing else in the entire game can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 03:06:56




Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.

No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Lone Dragoon wrote:The thing is, it is resolved as a weapon. It is a strength 6 AP 2 large blast. What it represents doesn't matter, what does matter is if the flyer is zooming someone is attempting to hit it with a large blast marker. Psychic powers are not weapons per say, but they do mimic them, and a psychic power with a blast marker is unable to hit a flyer.

Nitros14 wrote:If you want to insist your strength 6 AP 2 large blast that allows cover saves isn't a weapon that's fine but good luck finding opponents.

100% correct to the above.


winterman wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:anything used to inflict damage on the enemy is a weapon, be it a Psychic power, or special rule a model has.

I'd love a page number for that.

I'd love a page number for where they define "successful" or "Immune" in the BRB.

Some things need to fall back on the English definitions to be useful at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 03:05:46


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

I threw up a larger question regarding non-shooting attack in INAT....

This is going to be a very repeated argument for anything that isn't a shooting attack on zooming flyers.

We can go around and around on this, we'll leave it up to the neckbeards to figure this one out.

Some others that come to mind....Njals storm calling powers, things that state they are "auto" hit (what takes precedence?) Mawlacs. Bomb Squigs.

Can anyone think of any others?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought of another, exploding flyer hitting another flyer....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 03:15:32


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

Maledictions, take effect in the movement phase and don't appear to be affected by hard to hit. So Telekinetic power Objuration Mechanicum does not roll to hit, is not a weapon or shooting attack and seem to be a hard counter.

Grabbin Klaw might be able to kill non-hover flyers by not allowing them to move in the next phase. Even hover ones getting forced to move as skimmer (and thus be vulnerable next turn) could be useful.

Wrecking ball, although wether its a weapon or not hinges on the fact it can't be removed via weapon destroyed results.

Both Ork ones though is theory, not sure they have the range to pull it off. Funny thought though.

Also I'll have no issue finding opponents cause I don't care one way or other and will play it however my opponent wants to. As opposed to the others making declarations they can't back up with rules quotes.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




DeathReaper wrote:No because you can only snap shot against fliers and it is a blast marker, which can not hit fliers.


This, except that the Flying MC must be Swooping. If it is gliding, then Mawloc can hit it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 04:19:35


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

kjolnir wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:No because you can only snap shot against fliers and it is a blast marker, which can not hit fliers.


This, except that the Flying MC must be Swooping. If it is gliding, then Mawloc can hit it.

Except nowhere does it say you can only snap shot against flyers. It says shots have to be resolved by snap fire rules. If a special rule or ability isn't a shot then how can this rule apply.

Infact you can vector strike flyers. Right there that's one caveat that is directly in the rules.
Sweep attacks. Another option.
Maledictions. Another.

This concept that Hard to Hit covers any and every possible thing that may come at a flyer is simply not supported by the rules. There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

At best its ambiguous and in need of an FAQ.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




winterman wrote:

Terror from the deep is not a shot, not a blast weapon; it simply damages things underneath the template.




Explain to me how something coming up from underneath the surface of the ground is going to hit a flying anything, particularly when swooping/zooming is specifically described as having meaningful levels of altitude sufficient to clear impassable terrain.

Sorry, the Mawloc attack is resolved exactly like a template weapon, and therefore cannot hit a zooming flyer or swooping FMC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
winterman wrote:
Except nowhere does it say you can only snap shot against flyers. It says shots have to be resolved by snap fire rules.


So if I'm shooting by the snap fire rules, I'm not actually making a snap shot? Is that really your argument?

winterman wrote:Infact you can vector strike flyers. Right there that's one caveat that is directly in the rules.
Sweep attacks. Another option.
Maledictions. Another.


How many of those attacks are specifically called shooting attacks, and use templates?

Oh. Right.

winterman wrote:This concept that Hard to Hit covers any and every possible thing that may come at a flyer is simply not supported by the rules.


Nobody has made that assertion. You sir are creating strawmen.

winterman wrote:There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.


Except that TFtD is has a profile exactly like a weapon, is resolved like a weapon, and uses a template like a weapon. And template weapons can't hit zooming/swooping flyers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 04:35:54


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






Zooming fliers are immune to large pie plates. It's a simple matter of elevation. Unless the mawlok is modeled with wings it's not going to hit anything flying at an altitude of 2 kilometers (about 6000 feet)

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in us
Scuttling Genestealer




Auburn WA USA

Okay, so what DOES happen when a Mawloc Deep Strikes under the base of a Flyer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Flyer would be moved, right? How far would the flyer base have to be moved? Well, the TftD rule tells us to move it to the outside of the blast marker. So the Flyer has to move outside of the blast marker, would count as destroyed if couldn't move outside the marker radius, but shouldn't take the initial damage from the Mawloc arriving on the board? Nahhhh...that just doesn't seem right.

Bugs and Greenskins FTW! 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





(Language warning!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBizgLZX7W0

That is all.

Appears to work by RAW, since Zooming Flyers are only immune to blast/large blast weapons and TFFD is not a "weapon". Simple loophole, something something house rules.
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal





Washington, USA

I'd side with the Mawloc on this one. Hard to Hit specifically sights template, blast, and large blast weapons; not special abilities. They could have written "all template, blast effects" but they didn't. An oversight maybe, but perfectly fair.
It's not even that far fetched of an effect. When the Mawloc emerges, I'm sure a good geyser of rock comes with it.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




This does need a faq, but we all know how the faq is going to go...

As hilarious as it is, even if this use for mawloc was legal the model wouldn't be worth taking
   
Made in us
Axis & Allies Player




Texas

I love the idea, cinematically. And isn't that what 6e is all about? Lights, camera, action!
   
 
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