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Seems fine.

A little lunch on the wing, as it were.

kjolnir wrote:Explain to me how something coming up from underneath the surface of the ground is going to hit a flying anything, particularly when swooping/zooming is specifically described as having meaningful levels of altitude sufficient to clear impassable terrain.

Sorry, the Mawloc attack is resolved exactly like a template weapon, and therefore cannot hit a zooming flyer or swooping FMC.

--Strawman arguement. Doesn't matter how it could do it in real life (granted as mentioned rocks or just like in Dune movie how the thing almost ate that flyer).
--Mawloc attack is not resolved like a template weapon, or a blast weapon for that matter.

So if I'm shooting by the snap fire rules, I'm not actually making a snap shot? Is that really your argument?

No my argument is Hard to Hit says SHOTS must use snap fire rules. If something is NOT a SHOT then it can't possibly be made to snap shot. Mawloc attack is not a shot, so caveats regarding it not being able to be used (per snap shot rules) are irrelevant.

winterman wrote:Infact you can vector strike flyers. Right there that's one caveat that is directly in the rules.
Sweep attacks. Another option.
Maledictions. Another.

How many of those attacks are specifically called shooting attacks, and use templates?

Oh. Right.

Ohh funny you say that. Mawloc attack is not a shot either, nor is it a weapon that uses blast or templates.

winterman wrote:This concept that Hard to Hit covers any and every possible thing that may come at a flyer is simply not supported by the rules.

Nobody has made that assertion. You sir are creating strawmen.

You quoted a guy who said you had to snap shot at flyers. I didn't make the strawman I just bashed on it a bit. Funny too you accuse me of strawmanning since I'm not the guy using real life "can't possibly hit a flyer" in a rules discussion.

winterman wrote:There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

Except that TFtD is has a profile exactly like a weapon, is resolved like a weapon, and uses a template like a weapon. And template weapons can't hit zooming/swooping flyers.

What is the range, how does it hit, when is it resolved. Its nothing like a weapon except it causes wounds and damage. Much like the things I already mentioned to give some backing examples of other things in the game that ignore Hard to Hit.

You are welcome to continue arguing with me but I am done until someone comes up with something other then continuing to say Terror from the Deep is a blast weapon or attacking my ability to find opponents.

jwolf wrote:I love the idea, cinematically. And isn't that what 6e is all about? Lights, camera, action!

I know right? Some at my store called 6ed Michael Bay 40k. If a mawloc busting the crap outta a flyer isn't Bayesque I dunno what it

winterman wrote:
What is the range,

0.

winterman wrote:how does it hit

Automatically, just like every other template weapon in the game.

winterman wrote:when is it resolved.

During the movement phase, just like Vector Strike. Which counts as a shooting attack when your shooting phase rolls around.

winterman wrote:Its nothing like a weapon except it causes wounds and damage.

And uses a template. And has a profile like a weapon.

winterman wrote:Much like the things I already mentioned to give some backing examples of other things in the game that ignore Hard to Hit.

And things that don't.

winterman wrote:You are welcome to continue arguing with

winterman wrote: me but I am done until someone comes up with something other then continuing to say Terror from the Deep is a blast weapon or attacking my ability to find opponents.

It is not a ranged attack. It is not a weapon.

It is a special rule with a description of what it does.

Seems to me that this is simple. Could the Mawloc damage any fast vehicles or skimmers in 5e?

Yep, and while they are not one in the same, Mawloc can still hit those, so should be able to hit a "flyer".

In other words, what do you think a Vendetta does around the battle field, fly, no it might not be a "flyer" according to the rules, but it sure doesn't land every so often so it can shoot at the enemy.

Why would a flyer be any different?

kirsanth wrote:It is not a ranged attack. It is not a weapon.

It is a special rule with a description of what it does.

I tend to agree.

I think I was just taking issue more with the logic used than the conclusion.

Can´t stay out of this one so i would say no to hit a flyer.

Why?

Page 100, placing blast markers, i consider the tfd to happen att ground level and accordingly can not affect anything not at the same level.
(Skimmers are at ground level, flyers are not)

The Deepstrike definitely has to be done at ground level.

The results of the DS, involving TftD have the advanced rules describing how to use them.

None of them involve using a blast weapon or its restrictions.

RAW it works, RAI is a little muddy.


On one hand, it could be explained as the Mawloc jumping high into the air and catching the flyer(Flyers are strafing the ground, not zooming thousands of feet in the air)

But on the other hand, it can be explained that the Mawloc has no way of telling if the flyer is where it is cause its not touching the ground. So you could not hit the flyer with the Mawloc.

If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

Grey Templar wrote:RAW it works, RAI is a little muddy.


On one hand, it could be explained as the Mawloc jumping high into the air and catching the flyer(Flyers are strafing the ground, not zooming thousands of feet in the air)

In the Flying MC description, it does say that flying MCs can attain high altitudes.

So not only would the Mawloc not know where it is, would it even be able to jump that high?

It's a fluff-based argument. RAW I believe the Mawloc can hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer. I don't necessary think it SHOULD be that way, but that's a different argument.

GW should FAQ it, maybe make it so it can hit it, but the Flyer gets a 3+ dodge save against the hit.

If you are going that way. . .
I have yet to see a model that the fully built Mawloc could not touch because it was too high off the table.

Sure those things CAN fly uber-high. But they obviously are not or the ranges would be measured VERY differently - see measuring ranges with vertical elements.

kirsanth wrote:If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

I'm a Nid plauyer, and I honestly think those points are better spent on Trygons and flying MCs. I haven't played a serious game yet, but I don't have any near-term plans to take a Mawloc.

I'm not contesting that the mawloc COULD hit a flyer in real life(if it existed), but I'm saying that the Mawloc would not know where the flyer was while he tunneling underground like he does with units that are on the ground. So he can't target the flyer because he doesn't know where it is.

That would depend on what kind of flyer you got, as an ork player i got some bombers and i promise you that they are not that close to the ground since it would be way to difficult to see those fancy bomb explosions if you are to close to the ground.

I would probarly go for the dice roll IF the nid player actually built his Mawloc "model" to be able to reach the flier (The flying base is quite high). A little like sometimes he will reach the flyer, sometimes not.

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

I'm a Nid plauyer, and I honestly think those points are better spent on Trygons and flying MCs. I haven't played a serious game yet, but I don't have any near-term plans to take a Mawloc.

Sure, and with the changed to Force/Power weapons Tyrannofexes got a lot more viable.

That was kind of my point with that.

kirsanth wrote:If you are going that way. . .
I have yet to see a model that the fully built Mawloc could not touch because it was too high off the table.

Being a Flyer allows me to pass OVER impassable terrain.

What if there is impassable terrain taller than the Mawloc? Doesn't that mean that I can fly outside of the Mawloc's reach?

I'm not seriously proposing this, just discussing the thought process behind what you said.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm not contesting that the mawloc COULD hit a flyer in real life(if it existed), but I'm saying that the Mawloc would not know where the flyer was while he tunneling underground like he does with units that are on the ground. So he can't target the flyer because he doesn't know where it is.

Not touching that one. But, TftD works even if it hits a unit by accident - see scatter rules.

Thats what i'm saying. You can't place the template under the flyer, but it could scatter under it. House rule of course.

kirsanth wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If it leads to more use of Mawlocs I do not see even many non-Tyranid players complaining, regardless.

I'm a Nid plauyer, and I honestly think those points are better spent on Trygons and flying MCs. I haven't played a serious game yet, but I don't have any near-term plans to take a Mawloc.

Sure, and with the changed to Force/Power weapons Tyrannofexes got a lot more viable.

That was kind of my point with that.

Totally. I haven't taken any TFexes yet, but I've not ruled it out, either. I could trade them for a Trygon or two, maybe.

Thing is, with Hive Commander on my Hive Tyrant and the new reinforcement rules, my stuff comes in on a 2+ on turn 2. Popping up a Trygon or two behind someone's Dreadnought or Vindicator and glancing it to pieces is really temping, and probably better than popping it (maybe) at 48" with a TFex.

And, if I get lucky on my Warlord Trait roll, I can re-roll failed reserves.

Boldtaar wrote:Can´t stay out of this one so i would say no to hit a flyer.

Why?

Page 100, placing blast markers, i consider the tfd to happen att ground level and accordingly can not affect anything not at the same level.
(Skimmers are at ground level, flyers are not)

Only way this logic works is if the Mawloc comes up on a Ruin that the Flyer happens to be flying over(Base on top of said ruins); and even then it fails because TFTD is not a shooting attack(Unless FAQ'd otherwise, it hits all models on all levels of the ruins).

Also, The Base of the flyer is very much always on the ground; as Models cannot move on/across the base, and enemy models must remain at least 1" from the base at all times.

Mawloc can eat a Plane until we get rules that states otherwise, it's attack is not a shot, and hits everything in an infinite cylinder.

So it's agreed, then. Worms will eat Birds in 6th. Excellent!

Relax, and enjoy the love that is a Mawloc actually on the table.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Also, The Base of the flyer is very much always on the ground; as Models cannot move on/across the base, and enemy models must remain at least 1" from the base at all times.

Same with a Stormraven. If I target a non-Zooming Stormraven with a template weapon and the template scatters off the Stormraven and over infantry, are the infantry hit with the template, or are they safe since the template was at a different level?

By that are you meaning a Blast Marker/Template?

No matter: yes, absolutely yes they are hit.

What I was saying is that Flyers are always at ground level, or on top of Buildings/ruins.

Flyers are where there base is I guess is what I am trying to say.

winterman wrote:Its not a shooting attack, it is not resolved in the shooting phase, nor is it a blast weapon so 'Hard to Hit' doesn't seem to be relevant.

EDIT
To further clarify

"Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. Template, blast and large blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode."

Terror from the deep is not a shot, not a blast weapon; it simply damages things underneath the template.

In all of the FAQs, GW refers to the operative language as the "penultimate sentence." IMO the language must all be read together for context and cannot be severed. The second sentence should not be taken as a rule in an of itself. When broken down the rule looks like the following:

Hard to Hit:
1) Shots at a flier, 2) that are zooming, 3) must be resolved as Snap Shots.
a) Types of Shots that cannot hit a Flyer in Zoom mode
i) templates; ii) blast; iii) large blast

If the Mawloc attack is not a shooting attack then then the prohibition against large blast affecting flyers in zoom mode does not apply according to the "Hard to Hit" rule.

Some other rule would have to be quoted in order to prevent the mawloc attack from working on a flyer.

I think this one is pretty simple. Its resolved like a template. You can't hit the flyer... I don't know why this is so hard.

Darkwynn wrote:I think this one is pretty simple. Its resolved like a template. You can't hit the flyer... I don't know why this is so hard.

Because the BRB says template WEAPONS. The Mawloc TFtD attack isn't a weapon.

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

To be fair though, it isn't hard; it's just a result of the Mawloc Deepstriking, not using a weapon.

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate. After all, it IS a large blast template and is DOES scatter 2D6...

Still though, it's not a weapon, and the rules state that the only things that can't hit zooming/swooping flyers are any shooting weapon that doesn't roll to-hit, including template, blast, and large blast weapons.

What do you think this means for Psychic shooting attacks that don't require to-hit, like Blood Boil?