Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

agnosto wrote:I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Then why do the ranges measured for their weapons not reflect this?
No, WYSIWYG with TLOS.

I think we all WANT this to be viable, because it's just hilarious. Om nom nom. Also, pretty sure the flyer is in the clear here. It avoids templates.

agnosto wrote:Would the Mawloc's ability cause damage to units on more than one level of a ruin, per se? I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it says to place a base-sized marker on the table when the Mawloc deep strikes and any model under the marker is hit. Since the actual flier model can not possibly be under the marker, it can't be hit. The same as in an absurd example of a Mawloc DSin into a ruin and only hitting troops on the ground floor.

So, in short; the game breaks (IMHO) because the model isn't under the marker so can't be damaged or moved which means the Mawloc suffers a mishap as other models are considered dangerous terrain (might be mixing a little 5th e in there as I'm not up on 6th's ds rules).

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Sorry I missed it. Source? Because it would be the only effect in the game with infinite capabilities for damage (AFAIK), and there's nothing in the rule or rulebook to support it since template effects are mono-dimensional (at least they were in 5th). Please bear with me, I'm still going through the 6th edition book and so I don't know what all is covered.

It is not a blast weapon.

Using the rules for blast weapons, or for idiocy's sake template weapons, is entirely unfounded.

The rules for the Mawloc only relate to the results of its deepstrike.

Randomly/Arbitrarily adding other rules for weapons, or shooting, or assault will only confuse you - they do not apply.

kirsanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Then why do the ranges measured for their weapons not reflect this?
No, WYSIWYG with TLOS.

Page 80 states that distance to flyers is measured to the hull and the base is ignored except in two, very specific situations. I still believe the Mawloc has no affect on the flyer.

Fact: The Mawloc rule states that the model must be covered by the template, which is placed upon the table, to be affected.
Fact: The BRB explains that flier bases are ignored except in two very specific situations.

Mawloc can't hurt fliers.

1: Stop using template rules.
2: Stop using weapon rules.

kirsanth wrote:1: Stop using template rules.
2: Stop using weapon rules.

Not using either. Using flyer rules. Page 80 says the base is ignored.

Being rude does not improve the conversation.

Unless you are mis-applying shooting rules I miss or mis-read your point.
Other than stating that my point that rules are being misused is rude - which is rude.

agnosto wrote:Fact: The Mawloc rule states that the model must be covered by the template, which is placed upon the table, to be affected.

If the marker is ON the table, then it would never hit any models, as nothing would be able to be UNDER the marker. So either you place the marker ON the table and no models are ever affected, or you hold the marker OVER the table, and any models partially or wholly under the marker are affected.

kirsanth wrote:Unless you are mis-applying shooting rules I miss or mis-read your point.
Other than stating that my point that rules are being misused is rude - which is rude.

I fail to see how I am misapplying rules when we are talking about two entirely different things.

Thank you for editing your post regarding "idiocy".

Page 80: (emphasis mine)

FLYERS AND MEASURING
Flyers haveflyingbasesthat suspend them abovethe
battlefield. However, distances are still measured to and from
the Flyer's hull,with the exceptionsof the vehicle'sweapons
and Fire Points, which all work as normal. The base of a Flyer is
effectively ignored, except for when:
•The Flyeris being assaulted, in which case models may
move into contact with the vehicle's hull, its base or both.
• Modelsare embarking or disembarking from the Flyer,in
which case the base of the Flyer is used as the Access Point.

Even more interesting is the section regarding movement. One valid counter-point to my argument may be found there:

FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS
Models thatphysically fit undera Flyermodelcanmove beneath
it.Likewise, a Flyercan end its moveover such models.However,
whenmovingthis way, enemy models must still remain 1" away
fromthe baseofthe Flyer, and the Flyercannot end its move
with its basewithin 1" of other enemy models.

One might argue that since DSing is a form of movement that the Mawloc would have to stay 1" away from the flyer but then the Mawloc's special rule allows it to DS under enemy units/models.

My opinion remains that the Mawloc does not have the ability to damage flyers based upon:
1. The Mawloc's rule states that the base/marker thing must cover models that will be damaged.
2. Flyer bases are ignored except for two very explicit situations, neither of which apply to the Mawloc's special attack and the Mawloc base/marker can not cover the "model" unless we suddenly allow DSing in mid-air.
3. There is nothing in the Mawloc rules or Tyranid FAQ that says the Mawloc's special attack effects multiple levels.

Any and all are more than welcome to disagree with me, theirs no reason for us to have to agree and I readily admit that it'd be hysterical for a worm popping up out of the ground to take out a supersonic jet. What's next? Mawlocs knocking spaceships down from orbit?

Cheers all, have a great day.

"Directly over the spot" has nothing to do with the "On the table" you insist.
If a model is on that spot- - - that model is DIRECTLY OVER THAT SPOT.

kirsanth wrote:"Directly over the spot" has nothing to do with the "On the table" you insist.
If a model is on that spot- - - that model is DIRECTLY OVER THAT SPOT.

That's fine. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. As I mentioned before, I don't have the Tyranid codex. I just used the explanation in Army Builder which, as we all know, isn't always accurate. I don't have any flyers and don't normally run into people playing Mawlocs so I doubt it'll come up for me; if it does, my opponent and I will come to an understanding one way or the other an move on.

It is as silly as it sounds, and even people that know this will probably laugh when it happens.

It's silly and I would not be surprised it its changed via FAQ. The fact that each one so far has backed the silliness that it reads as though, makes that unlikely, as I read it.

editing to add:
Again, it's like the cover save thing. People think it preposterous that you can hide behind/in a tree from this attack - and yet the tree is still there without being affected. Guess what? That thing unaffected by this attack would be fantastic to use as shelter from this attack.

I say it does not work as right on page 6 under the Blast Markers and Templates, first sentence.
"Some weapons are so powerful"
Right there in the BRB it indicates that if it uses a Blast marker it's a weapon. No where does it limit it to shooting attacks.

agnosto wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Sorry I missed it. Source? Because it would be the only effect in the game with infinite capabilities for damage (AFAIK), and there's nothing in the rule or rulebook to support it since template effects are mono-dimensional (at least they were in 5th). Please bear with me, I'm still going through the 6th edition book and so I don't know what all is covered.

Source?

Sure: Tyranid Codex Page 51, the rule is called "Terror from the Deep"

It says: "Every unit under the Marker suffers a number of Strength 6, AP 2 hits equal to the number of models that are wholly or partially covered by the Marker."

Can I get a Source for Template/Marker effects being mono-dimensional? %th edition source on the subject will be just as welcome as 6th, btw.


Sargow: Half a sentence from a rule description does not a rule make. You will note that just after describing the Template, and 2 Blast Markers; the rules for how you use the Template and Markers only ever refer to "attacks that have an area of effect or Blast Radius".

Terror from the Deep is an Attack, but it is not Shooting a Weapon.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

I detailed this a few pages back: the Mawloc hits everything in the cylinder of it's marker, on all floors in ruins.

Sorry I missed it. Source? Because it would be the only effect in the game with infinite capabilities for damage (AFAIK), and there's nothing in the rule or rulebook to support it since template effects are mono-dimensional (at least they were in 5th). Please bear with me, I'm still going through the 6th edition book and so I don't know what all is covered.

Source?

Sure: Tyranid Codex Page 51, the rule is called "Terror from the Deep"

It says: "Every unit under the Marker suffers a number of Strength 6, AP 2 hits equal to the number of models that are wholly or partially covered by the Marker."

Can I get a Source for Template/Marker effects being mono-dimensional? %th edition source on the subject will be just as welcome as 6th, btw.


Sargow: Half a sentence from a rule description does not a rule make. You will note that just after describing the Template, and 2 Blast Markers; the rules for how you use the Template and Markers only ever refer to "attacks that have an area of effect or Blast Radius".

Terror from the Deep is an Attack, but it is not Shooting a Weapon.

No the page 6 description of Blast and template markers make the rule and as i am not going to write the entire page as proof you will have to read it, and you will note that if you read the entirety of the page they don't ever refer to the markers as shooting attacks, just attacks. So if you can point to some other reference in the rule book that dictates other markers and templates that Terror From the Deep uses, it is considered a weapon in regards to using the template.

Let me just write that out for you then:

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don't just target a single model or unit, but have an "Area of Effect" which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units.
To better represent these circumstances, Warhammer 40,000 uses a series of three different Blast markers and templates:

<Description in bullet points of 3" circular Marker, 5" circular Marker, and roughly 8" teardrop template>

<explanation that there are Photo-copies for use in the back of the book, or that you could buy Plastic ones>

The Templates and Blast Markers are used as a way of determining how many models are hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an Attack uses a Template, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of Scatter that might occur.

You see how that first bit contains exactly 0 rules, and How the last bit only refers to "attacks", not Weapons?

Yeah, you didn't want to type it out because you knew it disproved your claim. Unfortunately for you I am just the kind of crazy that is already re-typing all the rules in the book in a short outline form, both as a reference guide and as an exercise to help memorize all the new rules.

kjolnir wrote:

winterman wrote:There are ways to get around it and so far I have yet to read anything that denys Terror from the Deep.

Except that TFtD is has a profile exactly like a weapon, is resolved like a weapon, and uses a template like a weapon. And template weapons can't hit zooming/swooping flyers.

Tftd isn't a weapon or attack of any kind, you simply use it to determine who is hit by the mawloc appearing on the board. Just because it deals damage and has Strength and AP stats, It does not mean it is a weapon. For example, Hammer of Wrath. If you can find a weapon profile that says otherwise, I'd really love to see it. I'd start looking by actually checking out the Terror from the deep rules on page 51. should be right around "Place the large blast template directly over the spot the mawloc is emerging from. Every unit under the template suffers a number of Strength 6 AP 2 hits equal to the number of models in that unit that are wholly or partially covered by the template. Vehicles are always struck on their rear armour." There you have it, word for word, typo for typo. Not a weapon.

I'm seeing so many Flyer debates that center around people injecting their own interpretations of the situation instead of just reading the fething rules. I can't comprehend how this is even a debate.

Pg 81: "Template, Blast, and Large Blast weapons can't hit a zooming flyer." (emphasis mine) In other words, weapons that have the Template, Blast, or Large Blast USR.

Terror from the deep is not a weapon, nor does it have those special rules. You use the Large Blast template to determine who gets hit by the attack, but that doesn't mean it's a weapon or an actual Large Blast attack, unless errata'd.

If it said something like "attacks that use templates or the blast markers can't hit a zooming flyer" the argument that it wouldn't work would be valid.

The Mawloc can hit flyers unless someone points out rules that states that the Mawloc attack is actually a weapon with the Large Blast USR. Otherwise the only argument against it is just as unsubstantiated as people who say chariot sweeps can't hit flyers because they can't be assaulted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Let me just write that out for you then:

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don't just target a single model or unit, but have an "Area of Effect" which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units.
To better represent these circumstances, Warhammer 40,000 uses a series of three different Blast markers and templates:

<Description in bullet points of 3" circular Marker, 5" circular Marker, and roughly 8" teardrop template>

<explanation that there are Photo-copies for use in the back of the book, or that you could buy Plastic ones>

The Templates and Blast Markers are used as a way of determining how many models are hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an Attack uses a Template, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of Scatter that might occur.

You see how that first bit contains exactly 0 rules, and How the last bit only refers to "attacks", not Weapons?

Yeah, you didn't want to type it out because you knew it disproved your claim. Unfortunately for you I am just the kind of crazy that is already re-typing all the rules in the book in a short outline form, both as a reference guide and as an exercise to help memorize all the new rules.

...aaaaaand /thread

Just for perspective though what is the Mawloc's "terror from the deep" attack then? The debate seems to be focused on whether it is a shooting attack, whether it is an assault attack, or if it's neither. But if it's neither then it seems odd as it must still be governed by some section of rules.

We know the "attack" (we'll put it in quotation marks for now) occurs in the movement sub-phase because it occurs during deepstrike. This "attack" occurs out of phase of either shooting or assault and thus might be analogous to say a transport exploding and the unit inside taking automatic Str.4 hits. Such an "attack" doesn't occur due to normal circumstance but instead happens by operation of the rulebook.

Here, the "attack" happens by operation of the codex, circumscribed by the deepstrike rules. The inevitable question then is whether those deepstrike rules are then also circumscribed by the flyer rules.

My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Therefore it is not an "attack" but an operation of the rules. The rules only apply to a model whose base can be counted which it cannot for zooming flyers. Thus, the Mawloc's attack cannot hit flyers.

buddha wrote:My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Not true. The hull counts just fine.

buddha wrote:
My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Therefore it is not an "attack" but an operation of the rules. The rules only apply to a model whose base can be counted which it cannot for zooming flyers. Thus, the Mawloc's attack cannot hit flyers.

by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

SCvodimier wrote:
by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

Well I suppose if you stretch the argument out to absurdity then possibly. But the difference is flyers do have bases, which the BGB says to ignore while zooming.

buddha wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:
by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

Well I suppose if you stretch the argument out to absurdity then possibly. But the difference is flyers do have bases, which the BGB says to ignore while zooming.

Right. So hit the hull. I'm not seeing how ignoring the base means they can't be hit.

buddha wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:
by that logic, any vehicle that didn't come with a base (LRBT or even a rhino), could never be hit by a mawloc, since they don't have bases

Well I suppose if you stretch the argument out to absurdity then possibly. But the difference is flyers do have bases, which the BGB says to ignore while zooming.

Excepting that the Base cannot end over, nor within 1" of an enemy model(and not Over any models)

While a Flyer does effectively "disappear" from the table for during it's move, the Base shows right back up on the table, counting as the position of the flyer on the ground when it is not in the process of moving.

Loch wrote:Dropping a Void Mine specifically does not count against the number of weapons the Voidraven Bomber may fire that turn, per the DE FAQ. It's a Blast Marker that gets dropped in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase. It's just like Terror From the Deep in that it uses a weapon profile to resolve an attack, but that attack happens in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase.

Is the void mine a blast or large blast weapon?

If the answer is yes, then you can't ever shoot them at zooming flyers. Not even with Skyfire, as template, blast, and large blast weapons are specifically excluded from ever being able to hit zooming/swooping flyers.

Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

Toeko wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

That part of the FAQ isn't new - it was like that in 5th.
And it's completely, 100%, irrelevant to this discussion. If you think otherwise, please post why.

Ive been lurking (oh look a tyranid pun) for a while, but finally joined so I could throw in my .02 on some of the points on this thread.

I am on the side of TftD working against flyers for all the RAW/rule lawyering reasons mentioned. My question to those that oppose it is that if the Mawloc fluff had been written so that it crashes down from space instead of popping up from the ground would you still refute the claim that it hits? This would be the exact same game mechanic, but would completely alleviate the argument that the mawloc "cant reach".

Also, I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that the marker represents a cylinder and not simply a 2D circle. I feel like it was in an old FAQ or perhaps an older book, but I cant find it for the life of me. Can you still get a hold of the older FAQs?