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kjolnir wrote:Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate.

Yes it is.
Blast markers are not templates.

kirsanth wrote:

kjolnir wrote:Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate.

Yes it is.
Blast markers are not templates.

Did you actually read anything?

You said you it was not resolved in any way like a template

I pointed out two ways in which they were similar.

So, they are similar.

Geez people.

Still, that doesn't change the end result.

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

kjolnir wrote:Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate.

Yes it is.
Blast markers are not templates.

Did you actually read anything?

You said you it was not resolved in any way like a template

When you see it. . . .

The Tyranid FAQ clearly says that TFTD uses a blast MARKER, not a template. So Mawlocs can hit flyers, GW wouldn't issue a FAQ replacing the word template with the word marker for TFTD unless it is not a blast template. Very easy and clear.

I see both sides to the discussion. Personally, I lean pretty strongly towards the "it don't work" interpretation, but your milage may vary.

In our group over the weekend, we discussed this and squiggs and Death Ray specifically. We landed at no, it doesn't work if the Flyer is Zooming. Zooming Flyers seem pretty specific about what can hit them and what cannot. Snap Shot rules seems to further clarify even with an example.

The Zooming Flyers rules concept is new. So, as a brand new game mechanic, I give them a little slack (not much)...

However, if you read the Flyer and Snap Shot rules for context, it seem to have a mechanic spelled out pretty clearly - That is, only Snap Shot and Skyfire affect them.

The description, perhaps poorly, uses the word 'shot' (lower case) but it's a generic term. However, our read is that if your 'shot / release / beam / attack / whatever' doesn't have a BS, as noted in Snap Shot, then you can't shoot / release / pop up / whatever at the Zooming Flyer - again, by our read. The reason is, the Zooming Flyers rules seem pretty specific about what can affect them and Snap Shot goes further to explain, rule out, and even provide an example. Outside of using the lowercase word "shot" in the Flyer rules, it seems they did a pretty nice job to explain it.

Therefore, from our read, everything else, squiggs... or Mawlocs... Deathray... just can't get high enough and are not quick enough... or whatever fluffy cinimatic scenerio you would like to think of... just isn't good enough, the 41st millenium zooming flyer is just took quick... as was our take away and as outlined in the BRB.

Snap Shot - the only way a Zooming Flyer is intended to be shot at... even gives an example that the Necron Monolith special rule won't work... which offers some guidance on the intention of the rule.

Until a FAQ update, if you and your opponent don't agree, Roll a D6 to see how it works for your game (that is a rule in the BRB)... you guys are just wasting valuable game time otherwise...

Good luck,

Tactica wrote:I see both sides to the discussion.

Me too.
I also understood why people thought it denied cover saves.
I also understood that they were wrong - but I understood why they made the mistake.

So the BRB on page 13 says any shooting attack which does not use BS to resolve a hit cannot be used as a snap shot.

So Death Rays and auto-hit Psychic shooting attacks are out.

Mawloc? Still in, I think.

mawloc is not in any way, ever a snap-shot; nor any other type of shooting attack.

This is exactly why it can hit a Flyer.

It is not a weapon, it is a special attack.

It is not a Shot, nor a shooting attack, it is a Special attack.

Did anyone even bother to read the Nid FAQ... it specifically says to replace the word 'template' with 'marker'. Make of that what you will.

Dozer Blades wrote:Did anyone even bother to read the Nid FAQ... it specifically says to replace the word 'template' with 'marker'. Make of that what you will.

Ohhh, good call. By removing the word template specifically, it's obvious the sand worm is gonna eat that flyer.

Dozer Blades wrote:Did anyone even bother to read the Nid FAQ... it specifically says to replace the word 'template' with 'marker'. Make of that what you will.

Notice how that bit is not in Magenta?

Yeah that has been there since just after the Nid Codex was released.

What it means is that there is no such thing as a Blast Template(in 5th); you have a Template, which is the teardrop shaped thing, and then you have Blast Markers(the circular 3" and 5" things with little holes in the center). This still holds true; and is a Terminology required since templates don't scatter.

The Mawloc marker will hit the Flyer anyway because that Flyer model has no choice but to be displaced outside that marker (assuming it isn't destroyed) by an emerging Mawloc. The Flyer can't convieniently 'ignore' the damage yet still be displaced, and there is nothing suggesting the Mawloc won't move that Flyer model.

triplare wrote:The Mawloc marker will hit the Flyer anyway because that Flyer model has no choice but to be displaced outside that marker (assuming it isn't destroyed) by an emerging Mawloc. The Flyer can't convieniently 'ignore' the damage yet still be displaced, and there is nothing suggesting the Mawloc won't move that Flyer model.

Excellent.

What I find funny in this discussion is that no one has quoted the actual rules for terror from the deep yet. Shouldn't the exact wording of it shed some light on this situation? I would but I do not the codex with me.

To me it feels like the Mawloc shouldn't be able to hurt it. That's the intention of the hard to hit zooming flyer rules. I would house rule it to simply move the flyer out of the way without hurting it. That's an unbiased view from someone who actually has and uses a Mawloc.

Lithophile wrote:What I find funny in this discussion is that no one has quoted the actual rules for terror from the deep yet. Shouldn't the exact wording of it shed some light on this situation?

It's largely irrelevant, oddly enough.
It's the result of a deepstrike.
Not a shooting attack or a weapon use, which is the only things the fliers are protected against.

Counter-intuitive as it is, it relates to why I mentioned cover saves; most think they should not be viable, but the rules allow for it.

Nothing prevents the special rule from affecting ANY UNIT in the game.
It literally works on titans.

kirsanth wrote:

Tactica wrote:I see both sides to the discussion.

Me too.
I also understood why people thought it denied cover saves.
I also understood that they were wrong - but I understood why they made the mistake.

Snarky comments don't help...

They help me.

kirsanth wrote:They help me.

Also the readers.

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate. After all, it IS a large blast template and is DOES scatter 2D6...

Still though, it's not a weapon, and the rules state that the only things that can't hit zooming/swooping flyers are any shooting weapon that doesn't roll to-hit, including template, blast, and large blast weapons.

What do you think this means for Psychic shooting attacks that don't require to-hit, like Blood Boil?

There is a difference between things that automatically hit and things that don't roll to hit at all. Blood Boil automatically hits.

Grey Templar wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:Its resolved like a template. . . I don't know why this is so hard.

It is not resolved in any way like a template.

Well...that's not ENTIRELY accurate. After all, it IS a large blast template and is DOES scatter 2D6...

Still though, it's not a weapon, and the rules state that the only things that can't hit zooming/swooping flyers are any shooting weapon that doesn't roll to-hit, including template, blast, and large blast weapons.

What do you think this means for Psychic shooting attacks that don't require to-hit, like Blood Boil?

There is a difference between things that automatically hit and things that don't roll to hit at all. Blood Boil automatically hits.

Shooting attacks that do not use BS cannot hit Swooping/Zooming Flyers, because they cannot Snap Fire. That includes Psychic shooting attacks that do not use BS. Tyranid Warp Lances, for example, can Snap Fire because they use a BS to hit. Blood Boil does not, and is a psychic shooting attack.

Ok, and this is neither.

This is a result of Deepstrike.

There is no shooting, not even really attacking. Attacked maybe, but debatable - just hit is more true.

Other rules have no real bearing.

jwolf wrote:I love the idea, cinematically. And isn't that what 6e is all about? Lights, camera, action!

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago actually. Fantastic game all around, beautifully painted behemoth army as well. But the crowning moment was when his Mawloc erupted underneath my Valkryie and wrecked it, followed by my Lord Commissar and the veterans desperately trying to fight off a gaunt swarm and the Mawloc, even managing to get it down to 2 wounds before biting the dust. It was like something straight out of a movie.

It's a little sad that people will argue to such lengths over these things when really this allows for incredibly awesome moments, and its not even really gamebreaking.

Hazardous Harry wrote:It's a little sad that people will argue to such lengths over these things when really this allows for incredibly awesome moments, and its not even really gamebreaking.

Realistically speaking, this is an argument for allowing it - since it is not even really gamebreaking.

If Terror From The Deep can hit zooming flyers (and seeing as 40k is supposed to be a narrative, cinematic! game now, I'd allow it in the spirit of fun), then so can my Void Mine. I'm perfectly fine with this.

Loch wrote:If Terror From The Deep can hit zooming flyers (and seeing as 40k is supposed to be a narrative, cinematic! game now, I'd allow it in the spirit of fun), then so can my Void Mine. I'm perfectly fine with this.

Bombing does not correlate.

Dropping Bombs is firing a weapon. Shooting Blast Markers cannot hit Flyers.

Dropping a Void Mine specifically does not count against the number of weapons the Voidraven Bomber may fire that turn, per the DE FAQ. It's a Blast Marker that gets dropped in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase. It's just like Terror From the Deep in that it uses a weapon profile to resolve an attack, but that attack happens in the Movement Phase, not the Shooting Phase.

All true.
I am assuming you simply missed the "Note that this counts as firing a weapon" part of page 47.

Lots of things in this game "count as firing a weapon" and don't require a roll to hit. Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits flyers (for now).

Loch wrote:Lots of things in this game "count as firing a weapon" and don't require a roll to hit. Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits flyers (for now).

It's a blast. It counts as firing a weapon.
TFtD doesn't count as firing a weapon.

They aren't comparable.

Would the Mawloc's ability cause damage to units on more than one level of a ruin, per se? I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it says to place a base-sized marker on the table when the Mawloc deep strikes and any model under the marker is hit. Since the actual flier model can not possibly be under the marker, it can't be hit. The same as in an absurd example of a Mawloc DSin into a ruin and only hitting troops on the ground floor.

So, in short; the game breaks (IMHO) because the model isn't under the marker so can't be damaged or moved which means the Mawloc suffers a mishap as other models are considered dangerous terrain (might be mixing a little 5th e in there as I'm not up on 6th's ds rules).