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rigeld2 wrote:

Toeko wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

That part of the FAQ isn't new - it was like that in 5th.
And it's completely, 100%, irrelevant to this discussion. If you think otherwise, please post why.

If it's a marker, people can't use the "Templates can never hit flyers"argument.

am on the side of TftD working against flyers for all the RAW/rule lawyering reasons mentioned. My question to those that oppose it is that if the Mawloc fluff had been written so that it crashes down from space instead of popping up from the ground would you still refute the claim that it hits? This would be the exact same game mechanic, but would completely alleviate the argument that the mawloc "cant reach".

Also, I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that the marker represents a cylinder and not simply a 2D circle. I feel like it was in an old FAQ or perhaps an older book, but I cant find it for the life of me. Can you still get a hold of the older FAQs?

^This guy^

Hunchkrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Toeko wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the FAQ replaces the word Template with marker in the terror from the deep entry?

That part of the FAQ isn't new - it was like that in 5th.
And it's completely, 100%, irrelevant to this discussion. If you think otherwise, please post why.

If it's a marker, people can't use the "Templates can never hit flyers"argument.

Except the same rule that mentions templates also mentions large and small blast markers.

I'm hoping someone makes a comic out of this situation.

xole wrote:I'm hoping someone makes a comic out of this situation.

Or a video where the mawloc pops out the ground and for the next 30 seconds flys through the air to pluck a fast moving aircraft out of the sky.

All this thread comes down to, is an argument about a lack of definition loophole that i really hope gets sorted with an updated FAQ. Imo the intention is that it can't, but because it's a new rulebook there hasn't been enough time yet to sort out the controversies and oddities. Even as a tyranid player i don't think it should be able to, but if it is FAQed that it can, fair game, i thought wrong, let the Mawlocs have their fun.

I'm on the "it doesn't work" side of this debate.

The definition of weapon from some online dictionary:

1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon.

By the above definition, is Terror from the Deep a weapon? In my opinion, it's an unambiguous YES. In fact, I'd add a fourth definition:

4. An ability or piece of wargear in Warhammer 40k used to damage or remove another player's units.

Terror from the Deep is clearly a weapon. The controlling player obviously uses it as such, by purposely trying to deep strike right on top of enemy units. It doesn't matter that nothing is fired or shot, or that BS isn't used to determine accuracy. The intent of the controlling player makes it a weapon. I really don't get how anyone could argue that it's NOT a weapon, unless we're using some Games Workshop definition of weapon. The sad thing is, I still expect some of you to argue that it's not a weapon. I'd love to see your arguments for this.

The 6th Ed rule book states: "Template, Blast and Large Blast WEAPONS cannot hit Swooping / Flying models". That pretty clear to me.

Conclusion: Terror from the Deep is a weapon, it is a weapon that uses a Large Blast marker. These types of weapons cannot hit Swooping / Flying models. Ergo, doesn't work. QED

So you're saying psychic powers are also weapons, meaning all of them should roll to hit, since that is what is described in the shooting phase?
The problem with bringing outside definitions into the 40k rules set is that the rules themselves lay out what each keyword is and how it applies to the game.
By the same definition defense, I could say my harpy uses the flyer rules in since, according to dictionary.com, a flyer is "a person or thing that flies or moves very fast"

Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Happyjew wrote:Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Which has different rules from a flyer, but what if I want to play with my harpy as a specific flyer, rather than a flying monstrous creature rules?

The problem with his argument is that defintion-based evidence doesn't work if it is outside of the game system, because the game system might define things that are counter-intuitive to how the dictionary defines them or definitions that are normally known.

sfshilo wrote:Starting on page 50 the weapons in the game are defined. You will not find the mawlac area effect there as it is not a weapon or shooting attack.

Awesome, it's also missing the big shoota. That means no one can dodge big shootas anymore?

SCvodimier wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Which has different rules from a flyer, but what if I want to play with my harpy as a specific flyer, rather than a flying monstrous creature rules?

The problem with his argument is that defintion-based evidence doesn't work if it is outside of the game system, because the game system might define things that are counter-intuitive to how the dictionary defines them or definitions that are normally known.

Your Harpy example is a bit silly, as the FAQ clearly states that the Harpy's unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature, which has rules in the main rulebook. To insist on playing it as anything other than a Flying MC would be cheating.

The game system doesn't define an alternate meaning for Weapon, so I don't see anything wrong with using the common definition of the word as it is used by millions of people every day. The reason they don't define it explicitly is that it's a common word FFS, it doesn't need to be defined in the game, it's a common word.

Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

undertow wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Well the Harpy is a flying monstrous creature...

Which has different rules from a flyer, but what if I want to play with my harpy as a specific flyer, rather than a flying monstrous creature rules?

The problem with his argument is that defintion-based evidence doesn't work if it is outside of the game system, because the game system might define things that are counter-intuitive to how the dictionary defines them or definitions that are normally known.

Your Harpy example is a bit silly, as the FAQ clearly states that the Harpy's unit type is Flying Monstrous Creature, which has rules in the main rulebook. To insist on playing it as anything other than a Flying MC would be cheating.

The game system doesn't define an alternate meaning for Weapon, so I don't see anything wrong with using the common definition of the word as it is used by millions of people every day. The reason they don't define it explicitly is that it's a common word FFS, it doesn't need to be defined in the game, it's a common word.

Except, there's a section of the book called "weapons" and though, as people have pointed out, that list is not exhaustive of all the weapons in the game, it doesn't include any special abilities (tftd) or psychic powers. The idea that "websters says the mawloc is a weapon therefore you don't hit" strains credulity. I'd start showing up to tournaments with a copy of black's law and a big black robe.

People need to stop trying to use logic with 40k. Anyways, demonstration time.

How do you know the mawloc can't reach the flyer? A mawloc is strong enough to propel itself an infinite/undetermined distance underground over the course of a turn, why would it not be able to use this momentum to leap into the air? Flyers can't fly that high off the ground, they're within rifle range, after all. For that matter, aren't flyers only moving about 3 to 6 times as fast as infantry?

SCvodimier wrote:Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

True, true. They are listed just fine in the ork codex though.

Besides that, I agree with the Mawloc being able to hit planes though. There is no rule limiting the power of non-shooting special abilities when targeting a flyer.

Jidmah wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

True, true. They are listed just fine in the ork codex though.

Besides that, I agree with the Mawloc being able to hit planes though. There is no rule limiting the power of non-shooting special abilities when targeting a flyer.

Except that there is a rule limiting weapons that use Blast markers from hitting swooping / zooming models.

It's like you people are sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU'.

Seriously, why isn't Terror from the Deep a weapon? Can someone explain that?

undertow wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:Also means big shootas can't be fired in the shooting phase because they don't have any special rules saying they can?

True, true. They are listed just fine in the ork codex though.

Besides that, I agree with the Mawloc being able to hit planes though. There is no rule limiting the power of non-shooting special abilities when targeting a flyer.

Except that there is a rule limiting weapons that use Blast markers from hitting swooping / zooming models.

It's like you people are sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU'

Right back at you. The mawloc special ability/rule is not a weapon.

To edit to your edit, a weapon is something along the lines of a bolter, or a chainsword. Abilities that are resolved as shooting attacks are not weapons, but they are invalidated or validated through the snap shot rule.

The mawloc tftd rule is not listed as a shooting attack. Nor is it a weapon. Similar to the Doom of Malantai's bubble of death(I think...rulebook in my car), it is just something that happens. That it uses the large blast marker is irrelevant.

A special rule for arriving from reserves using a blast marker is not the same as a blast weapon.

"Terror from the deep" does not have the blast or large blast special rule, and thus is not a blast weapon.

If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

rigeld2 wrote:If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

no there wouldn't be. and, that's funny.

undertow wrote:


Seriously, why isn't Terror from the Deep a weapon? Can someone explain that?

sure, I'll even do it in the quick and dirty version.

A) the first sentence of weapons states that ever weapon has a certain profile, therefore, an attack needs to have the relevant profile to be considered a weapon.

B) the mawloc does not have such a profile, is not listed under weapons in the tyranid codex, and the special rule does not state anything about it being a shooting attack, therefore it does not count as a weapon.

to fend off a few counterexamples:

1) psychic powers state that they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, something different from the weapon category, and therefore, even blast or template psychic powers can hit zooming flyers, though since they count as firing an assault weapon, they must roll for snapshot (unless they auto-hit).

2)as per the big shoota example above, the BGB doesn't have it listed, but it provides a grounds already for any included weapons (i.e., they have the weapons profile).

shoot away (pun highly intended).

rigeld2 wrote:If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

Yes, there would still be a problem. The zooming flyer rules attempt to describe how fast and "incredibly hard to hit" a Zooming Flyer is. The "Hard to Hit" rule seems to indicate that Flyers can only be shot by Snap Shot (or Skyfire). It seems to go silent on any other effects in the game.

The problem is that GW used the generic phrase 'Shots resolved...' and the whole section only talks about 'weapons' as generic clauses. One can argue that they go silent on all other 'special' effects by either design because they cannot hurt / effect the flyers, or by design because all of these other items do effect Flyers.

We are also learning this list of 'other' effects may be quite an exhaustive list... for these so called, "incredibly hard to hit" flyers.

Folks are questioning many such items, which include but are not limited to:

Area of Effect types
- Mawlocs coming out of the ground under Flyers

Distance effects
- released Bomb Squiggs
- close proximity Grabbin claw

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

Drawing line / beam type spells
- Blood lance
- Jaws of the World Wolf
etc...

From my perspective, this rule has a whole lot less to do with the Mawloc's mode of attack / special rules for damaging things in a radius... and more to do with what Flyers are meant to be effected by, or not, in the new BRB. Mawlocs really are just one of the many questions...

With any luck, GW will FAQ this sooner rather than later... until then, the Tourny coordinators can make the call... and folks that cannot agree can always roll a d6 - at least that is a fall back rule. However, until a FAQ, games with new players should plan to discuss stuff like this. You never know who's going to land on which side of this one...

Cheers,

Tactica wrote:

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

and eldar vibrocannon

Tactica wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If it didn't use the large blast marker, but instead said to measure a 2.5" circle - would there still be an argument?

Yes, there would still be a problem. The zooming flyer rules attempt to describe how fast and "incredibly hard to hit" a Zooming Flyer is. The "Hard to Hit" rule seems to indicate that Flyers can only be shot by Snap Shot (or Skyfire). It seems to go silent on any other effects in the game.

So... in a permissive rules set, ability A is allowed to damage vehicles, Vehicle B has the ability to be hard to shoot. Ability A doesn't shoot, but you're insisting that they really meant for any possible way of causing damage to full under Vehicle B's ability?

Do you have any evidence of this? Fluff exaggerates in literally every case I've ever seen wrt 40k - so please don't use that as an example.

You do realize that "Hard to Hit" still makes them rather difficult for most things to kill, right?

rigeld2 wrote:So... in a permissive rules set, ability A is allowed to damage vehicles, Vehicle B has the ability to be hard to shoot. Ability A doesn't shoot, but you're insisting that they really meant for any possible way of causing damage to full under Vehicle B's ability?

The rule is "Hard to Hit." The rule does not read, "Hard to Shoot."

Said rule reads, "Shots resolved... may only be Snap Shots"

A) some folks interpret that the rule is only for when a unit is shooting with a weapon... other items are not mentioned (such as the Mawloc effects)
B) other folks are saying, no, the rules says the Flyer is Hard to hit, it may ONLY be hit with Snap Shots or Skyfire - that's it.

Thus my answer to the previous poster. That is, the problem would still exist because the problem is larger than "what does a Mawloc do". The larger problem is, what can a Flyer be hit / affected by. (The Mawloc just happens to be one of such special effects in question.)

Cheers,

Making this work with a Mawloc is hard.

Also, fliers are entirely affected by the results of deepstrike.

Tactica wrote:B) other folks are saying, no, the rules says the Flyer is Hard to hit, it may ONLY be hit with Snap Shots or Skyfire - that's it.

And things that auto-hit. And things that are exceptions to those rules. And..

"Hard to Hit" is not the rule. Yes, that's the name - but not the effects. The rule is pretty well defined (that is - it has hard limits on what it restricts).
People who take the name of a rule and assume intent based on that are going to have a bad time.

Thus my answer to the previous poster. That is, the problem would still exist because the problem is larger than "what does a Mawloc do". The larger problem is, what can a Flyer be hit / affected by. (The Mawloc just happens to be one of such special effects in question.)

Yeah, so all the people citing blast markers and weapon definitions would still oppose it? Erm...

jcress410 wrote:

Tactica wrote:

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

and eldar vibrocannon

As stated in other threads, the vibro cannon is shooting its line, and artillery may never snap-fire. Thus, you can never resolve a vibro-cannon hit against a flier in zoom mode. The death-ray can only hit fliers because it is mounted on a flier itself and thus can gain the skyfire rule - in which case it would be unable to hit ground targets, as it can't be snap-fired either (no to-hit rolls).

Jidmah wrote:

jcress410 wrote:

Tactica wrote:

Drawing line / beam type weapons
- Necron Death Ray

and eldar vibrocannon

As stated in other threads, the vibro cannon is shooting its line, and artillery may never snap-fire. Thus, you can never resolve a vibro-cannon hit against a flier in zoom mode. The death-ray can only hit fliers because it is mounted on a flier itself and thus can gain the skyfire rule - in which case it would be unable to hit ground targets, as it can't be snap-fired either (no to-hit rolls).

That's gakky logic in the case of the Death Ray. That's not how it works.

You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not.

If Death Ray required a target, then you'd be right. I'd have to pick skyfire mode to hit a flyer with it. But I don't have to do that, because no target is ever declared. The specific, advanced codex rules contradict the default shooting sequence, and by Page 7 the codex rules take precedence. End of story.

EDIT: Also, I find it fething hilarious how much of this thread has devolved into people arguing about the physics of whether or not a burrowing insectoid can hit a fast flyer. You're all missing the fething point! Follow the rules! You can't apply real-world logic to a game with a discrete set of rules. This is like arguing a queen could never move on the chessboard because royalty usually wear bodices that impede movement. Stop acting like chuckleheads and read the goddamn rules.

Ostrakon wrote:You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not..

Hence why I believe the Vibrocannon can hit flyers. By the time you find out the line will hit a flyer, you've already rolled to hit. Also the Vibrocannon does not target anything (it's rather indiscriminate).

Happyjew wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not..

Hence why I believe the Vibrocannon can hit flyers. By the time you find out the line will hit a flyer, you've already rolled to hit. Also the Vibrocannon does not target anything (it's rather indiscriminate).

I didn't speak for the Vibrocannon because I'm not familiar with it. Do you need to select a target unit for it? If so you can't hit a flyer with it, unless you've target a ground unit and the line happens to go through a flyer. If you don't need to select a target it doesn't matter.