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Ostrakon wrote:That's gakky logic in the case of the Death Ray. That's not how it works.

You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not.

Simple question, did you snap fire the death ray? No you didn't. Because, as you correctly pointed out, you never had the chance to do so.
So you can not resolve shooting the death ray against any fliers, because a requirement for resolving it against fliers was not met.

If Death Ray required a target, then you'd be right. I'd have to pick skyfire mode to hit a flyer with it. But I don't have to do that, because no target is ever declared. The specific, advanced codex rules contradict the default shooting sequence, and by Page 7 the codex rules take precedence. End of story.

Completely irrelevant. You are required to snap fire with non-sky-fire weapons in order to hit a flier through shooting. If you don't pick a target, you don't get a chance to snap fire and thus can not resolve the death ray against fliers. You are explicitly prohibited from doing so.

Ostrakon wrote:You only know if you're snap-firing or not after picking a target. The Death Ray never picks a target. By the time I've picked my two arbitrary points in space, the weapon has already fired. Same goes for beam and other line powers like blood lance. They indisputably hit flyers unless they explicity require a target ahead of time that would require me to know if I'm shooting a snap shot or not..

If you're not shooting at BS1, you are not snap firing. If you are shooting and not snap firing, you are disallowed from resolving that shot against any fliers. If you are using the snap fire rules (which explicitly are disallowed for any weapons not using a BS), you are snap firing. If you are not, you are not. There can never be any uncertainty.

Happyjew wrote:Hence why I believe the Vibrocannon can hit flyers. By the time you find out the line will hit a flyer, you've already rolled to hit. Also the Vibrocannon does not target anything (it's rather indiscriminate).

You are still firing a shot. That shot may not be resolved against fliers at all. Resolving includes losing hull points. It's completely irrelevant whether your have made your to-hit roll or not.

Ostrakon wrote:I didn't speak for the Vibrocannon because I'm not familiar with it. Do you need to select a target unit for it? If so you can't hit a flyer with it, unless you've target a ground unit and the line happens to go through a flyer. If you don't need to select a target it doesn't matter.

Nothing actually prevents your from picking fliers as targets. You are free to shoot blasts and template weapons at a fliers(in an attmept to scatter off them or whatever), you are just never going to resolve the shots against them.

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

So I don't read this as 'Only snap shots can be resolved against flyers.' Some weapons do not resolve shots in the same way as normal shooting attacks. 'Snap shots' is an example; sometimes "... a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally."

So in the Death Ray example, we are told we can NOT use the Death Ray as a snap shot--no BS is used. We must follow the rules for the death ray's particular resolution of attack. So we draw a line, and we hit any model under the line (including flyers). In this case, I would say that we are not resolving the Death Ray's shot AT a flyer, as we dont resolve Death Ray's in that way--namely AT anything. We resolve the deathray by drawing a line between two points.

In the OP, the Mawloc is not shooting, and it is not using a large blast weapon. The specific exceptions to what hits a vehicle thus do not apply. If the rule instead read that Large Blasts (the USR) do not hit flyers, or if it could be shown that when they said "large blast weapon" they really ment large blasts of any sort, then I would agree that Mawlocs dont hit flyers.

To those that object that Mawlocs cant hit a flyer thanks to physics, apparently the Flyers are flying low enough that a regular human can throw a krak grenade up and hit the flyer in the shooting phase. So the Mawloc need only reach up 8 inches, which considering how tall the model is, is not much of a stretch.

DevianID wrote:"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

So I don't read this as 'Only snap shots can be resolved against flyers.' Some weapons do not resolve shots in the same way as normal shooting attacks. 'Snap shots' is an example; sometimes "... a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally."

It doesn't say that, but has the same effect. Unless you are able to make a BS1 to-hit roll according to snap-fire rules for your shot, you can not resolve the shot as Snap Shot. This makes it impossible to resolve the shot against a flier at all.

So in the Death Ray example, we are told we can NOT use the Death Ray as a snap shot--no BS is used. We must follow the rules for the death ray's particular resolution of attack. So we draw a line, and we hit any model under the line (including flyers). In this case, I would say that we are not resolving the Death Ray's shot AT a flyer, as we dont resolve Death Ray's in that way--namely AT anything. We resolve the deathray by drawing a line between two points.

Resolving a shot against a vehicle consists of hitting, penetrating, taking saves, taking hull points off, rolling on the damage table and wrecking the vehicle if it has no hull points left. Until all that is done, the shot has not been resolved(the chain can stop early for obvious reasons). Snap-fire changes the hitting part. If you do not do that exactly as described in the snap-fire rules, you did not resolve your shot as snap-fire.

In the OP, the Mawloc is not shooting, and it is not using a large blast weapon. The specific exceptions to what hits a vehicle thus do not apply. If the rule instead read that Large Blasts (the USR) do not hit flyers, or if it could be shown that when they said "large blast weapon" they really ment large blasts of any sort, then I would agree that Mawlocs dont hit flyers.

Fully agree.

kirsanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:I believe that even though the Flier's base is at ground level, the actual model is located several floors up.

Then why do the ranges measured for their weapons not reflect this?
No, WYSIWYG with TLOS.

IT does. You measure from flyer to target model, not the air space above the target model. Height represntation is already built in to TLS measuring.

Yeah, the Flyers base is used only for the purposes of disembarking, embarking, and assaulting(and only if the flyer is in hover mode)

Otherwise, its like a normal vehicle and its hull is used.

Sargow wrote:I say it does not work as right on page 6 under the Blast Markers and Templates, first sentence.
"Some weapons are so powerful"
Right there in the BRB it indicates that if it uses a Blast marker it's a weapon. No where does it limit it to shooting attacks.

The brb has text for fluff purposes, that we will call dicta for now, and operable text that the FAQs refer to as "penultimate" sentences. The penultimate sentence gives the players the actual rules by which to play by. The language you quoted is not a penultimate sentence and therefore has no value in terms of game play.

Jidmah wrote:

DevianID wrote:"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

So I don't read this as 'Only snap shots can be resolved against flyers.' Some weapons do not resolve shots in the same way as normal shooting attacks. 'Snap shots' is an example; sometimes "... a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally."

It doesn't say that, but has the same effect. Unless you are able to make a BS1 to-hit roll according to snap-fire rules for your shot, you can not resolve the shot as Snap Shot. This makes it impossible to resolve the shot against a flier at all.

So in the Death Ray example, we are told we can NOT use the Death Ray as a snap shot--no BS is used. We must follow the rules for the death ray's particular resolution of attack. So we draw a line, and we hit any model under the line (including flyers). In this case, I would say that we are not resolving the Death Ray's shot AT a flyer, as we dont resolve Death Ray's in that way--namely AT anything. We resolve the deathray by drawing a line between two points.

Resolving a shot against a vehicle consists of hitting, penetrating, taking saves, taking hull points off, rolling on the damage table and wrecking the vehicle if it has no hull points left. Until all that is done, the shot has not been resolved(the chain can stop early for obvious reasons). Snap-fire changes the hitting part. If you do not do that exactly as described in the snap-fire rules, you did not resolve your shot as snap-fire.

In the OP, the Mawloc is not shooting, and it is not using a large blast weapon. The specific exceptions to what hits a vehicle thus do not apply. If the rule instead read that Large Blasts (the USR) do not hit flyers, or if it could be shown that when they said "large blast weapon" they really ment large blasts of any sort, then I would agree that Mawlocs dont hit flyers.

Fully agree.

You're adding in a lot of your own logic here instead of what the rules actually say.

Shots resolved AT a zooming flyer... very important operative word there. The Death Ray and most line/beam powers in general never choose a flyer to shoot at. They circumvent the rules for normal shooting by skipping steps 1 and 2 of the shooting process, selecting a target and rolling to-hit. The codex rules for these weapons take precedence according to page 7, and they don't state that they don't hit flyers. You're trying to wedge in basic rules into a situation that will never happen according to the game rules. The only time the Death Ray will ever check to see if it's rolling snap shots is if it Evaded in the previous turn or was Stunned or Shaken.

Nowhere in the rules does it define "resolving shots" as what you posted either way. Snap shots can't be FIRED if they don't require BS, but by the time I know a flyer is under the line, the weapon has already fired and I've determined what is hit by it. It all comes down to the page 7 Basic vs Advanced sidebar. Codex rules can supercede BRB rules in the case of a conflict. It's pretty clear cut actually.

buddha wrote:Just for perspective though what is the Mawloc's "terror from the deep" attack then? The debate seems to be focused on whether it is a shooting attack, whether it is an assault attack, or if it's neither. But if it's neither then it seems odd as it must still be governed by some section of rules.

We know the "attack" (we'll put it in quotation marks for now) occurs in the movement sub-phase because it occurs during deepstrike. This "attack" occurs out of phase of either shooting or assault and thus might be analogous to say a transport exploding and the unit inside taking automatic Str.4 hits. Such an "attack" doesn't occur due to normal circumstance but instead happens by operation of the rulebook.

Here, the "attack" happens by operation of the codex, circumscribed by the deepstrike rules. The inevitable question then is whether those deepstrike rules are then also circumscribed by the flyer rules.

My gut instinct is to say yes mainly due to the wording that the base is ignored (as opposed to say flyers being immune to blasts). The only way to determine the mawloc's "attack" is to determine if it comes into contact with the base of the model which, for flyers, is ignored.

Therefore it is not an "attack" but an operation of the rules. The rules only apply to a model whose base can be counted which it cannot for zooming flyers. Thus, the Mawloc's attack cannot hit flyers.

It's not an attack, it's a special rule that is the result of tr mawloc's deepstrike.

the way i see it mawloc TFTD is a Special attack but not a shooting weapon.

if you read p13 for shooting , roll to hit and snap fire , they both start with a "model that fires one shot" .

Mawloc ability is clearly not a firing weapon but an alternative speical attack covered by it special rules.

That said
The flyers ability "hard to hit" seems to aimed at covering rules that fire at flyers i.e "shots resolved at a zooming flyer."
as the Mawloc TFTD attack is not a fired shot but is an special attack defined under its own rules,it should work against the flyer as there is nothing under flyers that say special abilities don’t work against as.

if we do allow it to not work v a flyer does that mean it cant work vs a normal ground vehicle as there nothing in that section that says the special abilities cannot work vs ground vehicle

alternatily what if this is a tau failsafe detonator. that works very simaly to Mawloc TFTD attack it a piece of wargear that produces a none-weapon explosion. how would that work v the flyer?

also if you see p32 secound paragraph "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main games rules, it is represented by a special rule"

also page 32 "what special rules do i have"
paragraph 4 refers to speical rules not covered withing main rulebook being defined within codex's as unique abilites

clearly mawloc rule is a creature unique speical rule

Ostrakon wrote:Nowhere in the rules does it define "resolving shots" as what you posted either way. Snap shots can't be FIRED if they don't require BS, but by the time I know a flyer is under the line, the weapon has already fired and I've determined

So, there's a flier under your line. Did you snap fire your shot? No? Then no resolution against the flier.

what is hit by it. It all comes down to the page 7 Basic vs Advanced sidebar. Codex rules can supercede BRB rules in the case of a conflict. It's pretty clear cut actually.

You can hit the flier with your line, but you can not resolve the shot against it. The necron codex does not give you permission to resolve your shot against a target that you are not allowed to resolve against. In essence, the death-ray is nothing but a special form of auto-hitting. Weapons which auto-hit can not shoot at fliers either.

There is no need for a definition of "resolution". It's quite obvious what it mean. Resolving a shot mean just that. Resolve it, until there is nothing left to do with that shot.

I figure if TFTD is allowed to resolve against flyers, it is not the Mawloc hitting the flyer, but the rubble tossed skyward from it,s explosive surfacing that hits the flyer. Basically the eruption would create flakk burst above the exit hole, meaning the flyer jinks to a void it (gets displaced) and gets peppered by the debris ( take Armor Pen. tests).

It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

2. (pg 81) "Zooming fliers cannot be assaulted".

3. (pg. 80) "Models that physically fit under a flier model can move beneath it. Likewise, a flier can end it's move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the flier, and the flier cannot end it's move with 1" of an enemy model."

Pretty cut and dried.

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

2. (pg 81) "Zooming fliers cannot be assaulted".

The tervigon does not assault the flier. It is arriving from reserves.

3. (pg. 80) "Models that physically fit under a flier model can move beneath it. Likewise, a flier can end it's move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the flier, and the flier cannot end it's move with 1" of an enemy model."

Terror from the deep moves enemy models out of the way before placing the mawloc, thus obeying this rule perfectly.

Pretty cut and dried.

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

2. (pg 81) "Zooming fliers cannot be assaulted".

3. (pg. 80) "Models that physically fit under a flier model can move beneath it. Likewise, a flier can end it's move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the flier, and the flier cannot end it's move with 1" of an enemy model."

Pretty cut and dried.

None of these points are relevant. See the last five pages.

Jidmah wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Nowhere in the rules does it define "resolving shots" as what you posted either way. Snap shots can't be FIRED if they don't require BS, but by the time I know a flyer is under the line, the weapon has already fired and I've determined

So, there's a flier under your line. Did you snap fire your shot? No? Then no resolution against the flier.

what is hit by it. It all comes down to the page 7 Basic vs Advanced sidebar. Codex rules can supercede BRB rules in the case of a conflict. It's pretty clear cut actually.

You can hit the flier with your line, but you can not resolve the shot against it. The necron codex does not give you permission to resolve your shot against a target that you are not allowed to resolve against. In essence, the death-ray is nothing but a special form of auto-hitting. Weapons which auto-hit can not shoot at fliers either.

There is no need for a definition of "resolution". It's quite obvious what it mean. Resolving a shot mean just that. Resolve it, until there is nothing left to do with that shot.

If I had ever fired a shot at the flyer your logic might be relevant, but I didn't, and so, it isn't. If the game checks to see if the shot fired was a snap-shot during to-wound/remove casualties, I would have to undo firing the weapon in the first place in order to satisfy the rule. This doesn't make any sense. I drew a line, any model under the line is hit. No shots were fired at the flyer. End of story.

Since this thread seems to love going in circles, here is a list (of most) of the arguments made for and against the mawloc being able to hit a flyer

FOR
-The mawloc's attack is specifically a special rule, not a close combat attack, shooting attack, etc.
-The mawloc's attack is not listed specifically as a weapon, it just happens to use the large blast marker.
-The mawloc's attack is not a shooting attack, and Hard to Hit only applies to shooting.
-The fluff of the mawloc coming out of the ground has nothing to do with whether or not it can hit the flyer.
-The mawloc's attack does not have a weapon profile, so by the BGB's definition, it is not a weapon.
-The mawloc's attack is an infinite cynlinder upwards from the place where it is emerging, so the fact the model itself cannot reach the flyer is irrelevant to the attack.
-There are multiple examples of special rules that affect vehicles that are not shooting attacks and/nor happen in the shooting phase (Maleditions, wrecking ball, grabbin klaw, vector strike, sweep attacks,Necron Death Ray,etc.).
-The Hard to Hit rule only details how shooting is resolved, it is by no means an exclusive list of what can hit a flyer.
-A flyer cannot actually be that high, since even a simple rifle shot has a chance of hitting it.
-A flyer must still be moved after the Terror From The Deep attack, so why shouldn't it take the damage if it has to be moved?
-There is a difference between things that auto-hit and things that don't use Ballistic Score
-The mawloc uses the scatter rules of Deep Strike not blast weapon.
AGAINST
-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
-The mawloc does not have the skyfire rule and is using a blast marker, therefore it cannot hit.
-The mawloc cannot possibly hit a flyer, since the flyer is considered to be so high in the air.
-While it doens't have a weapon profile, it still has all the characteristics of a weapon (str, AP, and weapon type (large blast)), therefore, it should be counted as a weapon.
-Flyers cannot be assaulted, so the mawloc's attack would not resolve, since the mawloc is trying to occupy the space of the flyer's base.
-The base of the flyer is ignored except in assault and embarking/disembarking, so since the rule talks about bases or hulls, the mawloc's attack is not enough to reach the hull, therefore missing the flyer.
-Attacks that are not snapfire or skyfire cannot hit a flyer, since these are the only attacks referenced in the Hard to Hit rule.
-A mawloc could hit the flyer, but how would it know where the flyer was, since it would not be touching the ground.
-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
-The Snap Fire rule states that a weapon that does not use ballistic skill cannot be snap-fired, and since the Mawloc cannot snap fire with its attack, the attack misses.

so, if anyone has new arguments, please feel free to post them, but otherwise, I feel this thread has outlived the topic it was arguing

Jidmah wrote:

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player. The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

At the very least, anything that is being used to cause damage to another players units is a weapon. And if it's using a template or blast marker, it can't hit flyers. It really is that simple.

People have said it's not a weapon because it isn't listed in the back of the codex, that's a bunch of crap. Does that mean that an Eldar Farseer's Eldritch Storm psychic power (Str:3, AP:-, Large Blast, Pinning) can hit flyers because it's not listed in the back of the BRB?

Player1: Hey I'm going to deepstrike under you and use this abilty as a weapon to kill your flyer, but it's totally not a weapon because it's not on the list in the back of the book, Ok?

Ostrakon wrote:No shots were fired at the flyer. End of story.

So you claim that the death ray is not shooting?

undertow wrote:
I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player. The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

At the very least, anything that is being used to cause damage to another players units is a weapon. And if it's using a template or blast marker, it can't hit flyers. It really is that simple.

People have said it's not a weapon because it isn't listed in the back of the codex, that's a bunch of crap. Does that mean that an Eldar Farseer's Eldritch Storm psychic power (Str:3, AP:-, Large Blast, Pinning) can hit flyers because it's not listed in the back of the BRB?

Player1: Hey I'm going to deepstrike under you and use this abilty as a weapon to kill your flyer, but it's totally not a weapon because it's not on the list in the back of the book, Ok?

I've already answered this in a previous post and will do so again.

In the rulebook, it states "Every weapon has a profile", ergo, if it does not have a profile, it is not a weapon.

Terror from the deep hits once, has a str, has an AP, and uses the large blast marker, but it does not have a profile, therefore not a weapon, it is a special ability.

as for your example, it states in the rulebook that psychic shooting attacks count as firing an assault weapon, but are not considered such. So Eldritch Storm would roll snap-shot (unless it auto-hits), and is able to hit flyers

undertow wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Mightytim wrote:It can't

1. (pg 81) "Template, Blast, and Large blast weapons cannot hit fliers in zoom mode." The Mawloc attack uses a template.

It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player.

"Weapon" is actually defined in this edition of the rules. A "Weapon" must have a profile. Terror from the deep does not have a profile, neither implicit, nor explicit.

The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

It might also be a robot or a silly person in a costume.
Besides, to refute your argument: Terror from the deep does not scatter, has no range, LoS or weapon type provided, can not be used in either shooting or assault and is used by a model not even on the board. So it's definitely not a weapon - Wrecking balls, chain snares or similar vehicle upgrades are a perfect examples of something that does damage but is not a weapon.

At the very least, anything that is being used to cause damage to another players units is a weapon. And if it's using a template or blast marker, it can't hit flyers. It really is that simple.

That is not a rule. "Weapon" is defined in this edition, so even if it single-handedly wipes out your opponent's army, it's not a weapon unless it has a profile and at least one weapon type. In addition, not everything using a blast marker is a blast weapon. Prime example: Dark Eldar Webway Portals use small blast markers.

People have said it's not a weapon because it isn't listed in the back of the codex, that's a bunch of crap. Does that mean that an Eldar Farseer's Eldritch Storm psychic power (Str:3, AP:-, Large Blast, Pinning) can hit flyers because it's not listed in the back of the BRB?

That, indeed, is a bunch of crap. While PSAs are weapons per definition, the list is also missing obvious things, like the big shoota.

Player1: Hey I'm going to deepstrike under you and use this abilty as a weapon to kill your flyer, but it's totally not a weapon because it's not on the list in the back of the book, Ok?

Jidmah: "You can't use that ability as a weapon, just like you can't use ATSKNF as a weapon."

Jidmah wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:No shots were fired at the flyer. End of story.

So you claim that the death ray is not shooting?

The death ray is shooting but it's not shooting at any distinct targets. The rules for the death ray state "To fire the death ray, [follow these instructions]." Following those specific instructions circumvent steps 1 and 2 of the shooting sequence defined on BRB pg 12 and take precedence because of the Basic vs Advanced sidebar on BRB pg 7.

As such the death ray never targets any of the units it hits. This is why there's an additional rule that you can only target units hit by the death ray with the tesla destructor if you shoot with both weapons in the same turn! If it actually targeted units there would be no need for that addendum.

Weapons with no to-hit roll can't be fired as snapshots but I'd only know if I need to fire a snapshot when determining target legality in step one of the shooting process on pg 12. I can't un-fire the weapon once I've followed the specific overriding instructions in the death ray rules, and nothing there states that it can't hit flyers. Since nothing is ever shot AT the flyer (the flyer is merely hit by the attack) it doesn't hit the "resolve as snapshot" restriction in Hard to Hit.

However, let me deviate and assume your logic is correct. Flyers can choose to have skyfire on any given shooting phase. If the death ray hits a flyer, by your logic it will circumvent Hard to Hit because of Skyfire. However, what if I have Skyfire and the line crosses over ground units? The skyfire rules state I can only fire at non-fliers as snap shots. See my above argument: I've already fired the damn thing, and can't undo that. There's no "shots can only be 'resolved' as snap shots" clause there. If I choose to have skyfire for a given shooting phase it would skirt around your entire argument either way.

re: death ray,
if I say "i'm resolving this shot that doesn't require me to hit at BS 6" would you be alright with me hitting a flyer?

You are shooting a weapon, no matter its rules, and you manage to somehow hit something, you are shooting at it.

Just like a blast weapon scattering way off a target is shooting at the unit that got shelled instead.

Just like a flamer shooting at one unit and hitting the unit behind it is shooting at the other unit, too.

If you were right, then suddenly all kinds of rules would stop working if you somehow hit a different unit than your target, including cover.

"Targeting" and "Shooting at" are two completely different things. If Wilhelm Tell targets an apple and hits his son instead, he still shot at his son.
Besides, the rules allowing you fire further weapons is a clear counter-argument to your point. The BRB tells us that all models must shoot at the same unit. Thus, the Deathray must be shooting at all unit it hits.

Skfire works the same. If you are disallowed to fire at something, you can't fire at it at all. Death Ray rules do not give permission to fire at models you are not allowed to shoot. If you choose skyfire and you hit a ground unit, you have just fired at it and thus broken a rule.

Jidmah wrote:You are shooting a weapon, no matter its rules, and you manage to somehow hit something, you are shooting at it.

Just like a blast weapon scattering way off a target is shooting at the unit that got shelled instead.

Just like a flamer shooting at one unit and hitting the unit behind it is shooting at the other unit, too.

If you were right, then suddenly all kinds of rules would stop working if you somehow hit a different unit than your target, including cover.

"Targeting" and "Shooting at" are two completely different things. If Wilhelm Tell targets an apple and hits his son instead, he still shot at his son.
Besides, the rules allowing you fire further weapons is a clear counter-argument to your point. The BRB tells us that all models must shoot at the same unit. Thus, the Deathray must be shooting at all unit it hits.

Skfire works the same. If you are disallowed to fire at something, you can't fire at it at all. Death Ray rules do not give permission to fire at models you are not allowed to shoot. If you choose skyfire and you hit a ground unit, you have just fired at it and thus broken a rule.

And your RAW basis for this is...?

The way cover works is determined by the target unit. If something scatters onto a different unit, they can't claim cover saves (unless in terrain) because I never declared them a target unit. Same goes for template wounds. So I am definitively NOT shooting at those units in those cases. They're simply being hit by the attack.

The distinction between "targeting" and "shooting at" is something you've concocted entirely. I can shoot at something but hit something else. "I shot at the apple, but I hit my son instead."

The Death Ray shooting in this case doesn't break any rules at all. It circumvents them because we follow the codex rules over the normal shooting sequence.

Jidmah wrote:

undertow wrote:

Jidmah wrote:It's neither an attack, nor a weapon, nor does it have the template, blast or large blast special rule.

I still don't buy this. The ability is used as a weapon by its controlling player.

"Weapon" is actually defined in this edition of the rules. A "Weapon" must have a profile. Terror from the deep does not have a profile, neither implicit, nor explicit.

undertow wrote:The ability has a STR and AP profile similar to a weapon. It uses a Large Blast marker to determine who is hit in the same manner as any other Large Blast weapon. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. But it sounds like you're saying it's really a dog.

It might also be a robot or a silly person in a costume. Besides, to refute your argument: Terror from the deep does not scatter, has no range, LoS or weapon type provided, can not be used in either shooting or assault and is used by a model not even on the board. So it's definitely not a weapon - Wrecking balls, chain snares or similar vehicle upgrades are a perfect examples of something that does damage but is not a weapon.

Even if it has everything required for a weapon profile, it still doesn't have a weapon profile, meaning it is not a weapon. you cannot assume it is a weapon simply because it looks like it could be one and GW just didn't state it. Terror From the Deep is listed as a Special Rule in the mawloc's entry. Therefore, it can only be taken as a special rule, not a weapon. Special Rules can act exactly like weapons, but they still are not weapons.

SCvodimier wrote:Since this thread seems to love going in circles, here is a list (of most) of the arguments made for and against the mawloc being able to hit a flyer

FOR
-The mawloc's attack is specifically a special rule, not a close combat attack, shooting attack, etc.
-The mawloc's attack is not listed specifically as a weapon, it just happens to use the large blast marker.
-The mawloc's attack is not a shooting attack, and Hard to Hit only applies to shooting.
-The fluff of the mawloc coming out of the ground has nothing to do with whether or not it can hit the flyer.
-The mawloc's attack does not have a weapon profile, so by the BGB's definition, it is not a weapon.
-The mawloc's attack is an infinite cynlinder upwards from the place where it is emerging, so the fact the model itself cannot reach the flyer is irrelevant to the attack.
-There are multiple examples of special rules that affect vehicles that are not shooting attacks and/nor happen in the shooting phase (Maleditions, wrecking ball, grabbin klaw, vector strike, sweep attacks,Necron Death Ray,etc.).
-The Hard to Hit rule only details how shooting is resolved, it is by no means an exclusive list of what can hit a flyer.
-A flyer cannot actually be that high, since even a simple rifle shot has a chance of hitting it.
-A flyer must still be moved after the Terror From The Deep attack, so why shouldn't it take the damage if it has to be moved?
-There is a difference between things that auto-hit and things that don't use Ballistic Score
-The mawloc uses the scatter rules of Deep Strike not blast weapon.
AGAINST
-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
-The mawloc does not have the skyfire rule and is using a blast marker, therefore it cannot hit.
-The mawloc cannot possibly hit a flyer, since the flyer is considered to be so high in the air.
-While it doens't have a weapon profile, it still has all the characteristics of a weapon (str, AP, and weapon type (large blast)), therefore, it should be counted as a weapon.
-Flyers cannot be assaulted, so the mawloc's attack would not resolve, since the mawloc is trying to occupy the space of the flyer's base.
-The base of the flyer is ignored except in assault and embarking/disembarking, so since the rule talks about bases or hulls, the mawloc's attack is not enough to reach the hull, therefore missing the flyer.
-Attacks that are not snapfire or skyfire cannot hit a flyer, since these are the only attacks referenced in the Hard to Hit rule.
-A mawloc could hit the flyer, but how would it know where the flyer was, since it would not be touching the ground.
-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
-The Snap Fire rule states that a weapon that does not use ballistic skill cannot be snap-fired, and since the Mawloc cannot snap fire with its attack, the attack misses.

so, if anyone has new arguments, please feel free to post them, but otherwise, I feel this thread has outlived the topic it was arguing

This is a Very good Synopsis of both sides of the Argument.

There are a few Rules that are incorrect though(Oddly enough every last one of them are in the Against Camp).

I will now Quote the Argument and explain the Fallacy:

-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
First off; Marker, but that is more of a Nit-pick. More appropriately, the Mawloc is not Attacking.

-The mawloc does not have the skyfire rule and is using a blast marker, therefore it cannot hit.
Skyfire still does not allow for Blast Markers to hit Flyers; Shooting attacks that Have the Blast, Large Blast of Template special rules simply cannot hit Flyers.

-While it doens't have a weapon profile, it still has all the characteristics of a weapon (str, AP, and weapon type (large blast)), therefore, it should be counted as a weapon.
Large Blast is a Special rule not a Weapon Type. 6th Edition is very Clear that the only Shooting Weapon types are Pistol, Rapid Fire, Heavy, Assault, Salvo, and Ordnance

-Flyers cannot be assaulted, so the mawloc's attack would not resolve, since the mawloc is trying to occupy the space of the flyer's base.
Beyond the fact that the Mawloc is not assaulting, How would one who believes this propose TFtD resolve when the Flyer is where the mawloc needs to be?

-The base of the flyer is ignored except in assault and embarking/disembarking, so since the rule talks about bases or hulls, the mawloc's attack is not enough to reach the hull, therefore missing the flyer.
This is purely incorrect; The Base of the Flyer is still used for proximity to Enemy models and cannot even end within 1" let alone occupy the same space.

-Attacks that are not snapfire or skyfire cannot hit a flyer, since these are the only attacks referenced in the Hard to Hit rule.
Quite the Opposite; Hard to hit Only effects Shooting attacks, as TFtD is not a Shooting Attack Hard to Hit does not Effect it(Evidence lies in Both the interaction rules for Tank Shocks and Rams, and for Assaulting Flyers)

-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
Still not an attack, and TFtD is in no way resolved like a Blast weapon; The Marker is only ever pulled out if the Deepstrike scatters onto another model

-The Snap Fire rule states that a weapon that does not use ballistic skill cannot be snap-fired, and since the Mawloc cannot snap fire with its attack, the attack misses.
Again Not a Weapon

Thank you for the clarifications.

Just to be clear, I did not intend for say that every claim here was a valid one, simply that it was a claim that had been made during the course of the thread

SCvodimier wrote:Thank you for the clarifications.

Just to be clear, I did not intend for say that every claim here was a valid one, simply that it was a claim that had been made during the course of the thread

Oh, I know; the rules corrects weren't really addressed to you personally; just to the original claimants of those points.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I will now Quote the Argument and explain the Fallacy:

-The mawloc is still attacking using a template, which the Hard To Hit rule states should automatically miss.
First off; Marker, but that is more of a Nit-pick. More appropriately, the Mawloc is not Attacking.

The Mawlock is attacking (It is not using CC Attacks, but it is still attacking the flier).

Kommissar Kel wrote:-A mawloc's attacks are resolved the same way a blast weapon is (choose a point, scatter, then see who is hit).
Still not an attack, and TFtD is in no way resolved like a Blast weapon; The Marker is only ever pulled out if the Deepstrike scatters onto another model

Again, the Mawlock is attacking the enemy unit. (It is not using CC Attacks, but it is still attacking the flier).

Attack is defined in the rules as CC Attacks, attacking is not defined in the rules so we fall back on the common definition of attack (To attempt to inflict harm).

The Mawlock is attempt to inflict harm on the enemy unit.