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Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.

The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.

Tiberias wrote:
Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.

The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.

You played a 500 point(ish) game against a list that was perfectly suited to hard counter yours. That's how micro games of 40k end up more often than not. The scale means that individual lists Rock/Paper/Scissors extremely fiercely, and if you're on the wrong end of the equation you're going to have a bad day.

It isnt the fault of the Crusade ruleset. A Matched Play game under the same circumstances is going to have the same result.

I get the frustration quotient here. I really do. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a curbstomp. All I can suggest is to play at larger scales (doesnt quite sound like an option based on your model collection, but I cant stress enough how poorly balanced 40k is at tiny points levels), and have a chat with your opponent about the level of competitiveness that their lists are at.

Sterling191 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.

The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.

You played a 500 point(ish) game against a list that was perfectly suited to hard counter yours. That's how micro games of 40k end up more often than not. The scale means that individual lists Rock/Paper/Scissors extremely fiercely, and if you're on the wrong end of the equation you're going to have a bad day.

It isnt the fault of the Crusade ruleset. A Matched Play game under the same circumstances is going to have the same result.

I get the frustration quotient here. I really do. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a curbstomp. All I can suggest is to play at larger scales (doesnt quite sound like an option based on your model collection, but I cant stress enough how poorly balanced 40k is at tiny points levels), and have a chat with your opponent about the level of competitiveness that their lists are at.

Me saying I'll refrain from playing crusade is not because I think the ruleset is bad. I think it's quite cool actually.

But in my playgroup everyone but me just started new factions and they wanted to start playing those new factions in crusade, so those low point games are going to continue for some time at least.

I don't think my buddy intentionally took a list that counters mine, but the end result was still the same, Wulfen are just ridiculously overpowered against custodes specifically. Especially since I didnt bring venatari, which he knew, cause I haven't painted them yet.

But yeah, like you said, being on the receiving end of such a curbstomp in truly not fun, especially when losing every unit can bring permanent negative effects. Like it did in this case.

Remember, units can be discharged and replaced for free on your order of battle if youve accrued battle scars you want to get rid of..

Sterling191 wrote:
Remember, units can be discharged and replaced for free on your order of battle if youve accrued battle scars you want to get rid of..

Kinda sucks though if it's your warlord. And a character you've spent a lot of time to paint and tried to craft a backstory.

Like I said, I know you can fix all that. It's just really demoralizing for all that kind of bad stuff to happen to your crusade force in your first game.

Tiberias wrote:
Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.

The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.

Had the opposite experience.
25PL vs White Scars Space Marines

I took 2 *wounds* total during the fight.
I think its more an indictment of the smallest games and POWER LEVEL as a whole than the crusade system. Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.

Yeah I really don't get why GW is trying to force PL down peoples throats. Its systemically imbalanced as you've described, and poor balance is not fun for anyone, no matter what kind of game you're playing.

It's especially strange since they've obviously gone to such lengths to make sure points are balanced in 8th and 9th compared to previous editions.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Tried crusade for the first time today with a buddy of mine. Just 25pl, so I could play everything I have painted which is my terminator captain, a 3man guard squad and my galatus.

The rules and narrative possibilities are cool in general, but this was the most frustrating game I've ever played
My buddy played space wolves and brought Wulfen and eradicators. He basically tabled me in turn 3 without me being able to do anything against it. I managed to kill a single model, which was one wulfen.
I'm not going to play crusade again in the foreseeable future. I like the idea, but my personal experience was just awful.

Had the opposite experience.
25PL vs White Scars Space Marines

I took 2 *wounds* total during the fight.
I think its more an indictment of the smallest games and POWER LEVEL as a whole than the crusade system. Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.

You are absolutely right. We checked after the game, his 25PL basically came down to around 612 points or so and my 25PL came down to 456 points. So yeah, power level sucks (also wulfen suck).

Glad to hear you had a more positive experience with crusade.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.

Lets clarify something right here: PL bakes into its value unit wargear upgrades, and some of the hardest hit units are those with individual upgrade setups like Wulfen, Deathwatch Veterans or Crisis Suits.

The Points -> PL formula is very simple: (Base cost of unit (IE: the cost of the model plus the cost of any mandatory basic warger) + The cost of the unit with its most expensive upgrades) / 40, rounded to the nearest whole number (there are edge cases where specific adjustments are made, DW Vets being an example because for an entire edition they were priced as if every model was packing a Thunder Hammer and Combi Melta but were dropped slightly in the last update).

What this does mean though, is that unless you take a good chunk of wargear, you're overpaying on PL. Eldar grav tanks are a prime example of this as they have nearly 3 PL of "optional" upgrades that nobody takes in points games, but are baked into their PL costs.

For armies like Custodes, PL is a fairly accurate representation of their points costs because of the lack of customization. For others, its a moving target that if you chrome to the gills you overperform for your cost. But the argument that the PL system allows units to get things "for free" is completely inaccurate.

Sterling191 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Remember, those Wulfen in the PL mode, get all their suped up wargear for *free*. Technically, PL benefits any faction with a ton of wargear choices that don't come standard on their models, as you can take anything for no change in price.

Lets clarify something right here: PL bakes into its value unit wargear upgrades, and some of the hardest hit units are those with individual upgrade setups like Wulfen, Deathwatch Veterans or Crisis Suits.

The Points -> PL formula is very simple: (Base cost of unit (IE: the cost of the model plus the cost of any mandatory basic warger) + The cost of the unit with its most expensive upgrades) / 40, rounded to the nearest whole number (there are edge cases where specific adjustments are made, DW Vets being an example because for an entire edition they were priced as if every model was packing a Thunder Hammer and Combi Melta but were dropped slightly in the last update).

What this does mean though, is that unless you take a good chunk of wargear, you're overpaying on PL. Eldar grav tanks are a prime example of this as they have nearly 3 PL of "optional" upgrades that nobody takes in points games, but are baked into their PL costs.

For armies like Custodes, PL is a fairly accurate representation of their points costs because of the lack of customization. For others, its a moving target that if you chrome to the gills you overperform for your cost. But the argument that the PL system allows units to get things "for free" is completely inaccurate.

Fair enough, but that still means that in practical terms, PL is not worth using and points are the more granular and balanced alternative.
I for one won't be playing crusade with PLanymore, ever.

If you want balance you use neither PL nor points. Both are equally imbalanced. Just what is best changes. Neither is fit for even remote glance if you are looking for balance.

tneva82 wrote:
If you want balance you use neither PL nor points. Both are equally imbalanced. Just what is best changes. Neither is fit for even remote glance if you are looking for balance.

Yeah ok, but there are shades to this....saying both are equally imbalanced is simply not true.

I honestly think PL was implemented to give first time players (SM or some other Elite heavy Army) an easy way to play the game without all the confusing maths. It's like Babys first 40k, or DND without any of the rolled dice, just use the average, id8=4 etc.

I don't think they ever intended PL to be the basis for balance throughout the game. That wouldn't make sense, because it would eliminate the swing that comes with variation.

just my 2cts

It also has some use as a reference. Like for some units being put into deepstrike, costs more if the PL reaches a certain threshold. Would be a little more gamey if it was points. You'd see someone take or not take a stormbolter on a vehicle just so they could put it in deepstrike. (a silly example but you get the gist)

tneva82 wrote:
If you want balance you use neither PL nor points. Both are equally imbalanced. Just what is best changes. Neither is fit for even remote glance if you are looking for balance.

When people say balance they're aren't meaning perfect balance as you seem to imply. Obviously it needs to be assessed against a relative level of choice of action and customizability in army building, which are some of the main attractions of tabletop and miniature gaming. Otherwise we would all end up playing chess (which is still not a balanced game according to that definition).

What solution would you propose to achieving such a thing if points are not the answer?

The main issue seems to be the inability of GW to see past their Loyalist SM focus. To all the old timers, has any race or faction ever gotten a full 150% rebuild from scratch, all new models, even new models that aren't replacing an old models. Looking at you ATV and Impulsor Variants. You know what this hover transport needs? Long Range Anti-Tank capability. But seriously, has this ever happened? Maybe what we are seeing isn't imbalance, but a new GW approach to faction based rebuilds?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The main issue seems to be the inability of GW to see past their Loyalist SM focus. To all the old timers, has any race or faction ever gotten a full 150% rebuild from scratch, all new models, even new models that aren't replacing an old models. Looking at you ATV and Impulsor Variants. You know what this hover transport needs? Long Range Anti-Tank capability. But seriously, has this ever happened? Maybe what we are seeing isn't imbalance, but a new GW approach to faction based rebuilds?

Necrons right now, Sisters & Deathguard last edition all getting a complete range refresh and brand new units.

SM sell too well to ever not be the first to get attention when ever anything big happens (1st to get chapter tactics/army traits, amongst the 1st to get formations, 1st to get a doctrines style ability but they won't be the last), and given how well marines sell there is no incentive not to continue releasing new stuff.

Uh, folks, Custodes tactica?

Audustum wrote:
Uh, folks, Custodes tactica?

Are you saying there is a different thread we need to post on, or that we have become irrelevant, or that we need to talk more tactics?
Because your post ism honestly hard to discern the meaning from.

As far as tactics, we are discussing the likelihood of Custodes getting new models in the new edition, if any. Is wishlisting forbidden?

It's certainly more interesting than;

"hurr Wulfen ROFLstomped my custodes 500 point army" Even though we are clearly built to not play well in small games due to our cost.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Uh, folks, Custodes tactica?

Are you saying there is a different thread we need to post on, or that we have become irrelevant, or that we need to talk more tactics?
Because your post ism honestly hard to discern the meaning from.

As far as tactics, we are discussing the likelihood of Custodes getting new models in the new edition, if any. Is wishlisting forbidden?

It's certainly more interesting than;

"hurr Wulfen ROFLstomped my custodes 500 point army" Even though we are clearly built to not play well in small games due to our cost.

I am really not sure if you are intentionally trying to be a douchebag, but it is really getting harder and harder for me to take your misinformed, hyperbolic posts seriously. Also custodes usually overperform at low points due to our inherent toughness.

As to your question: if we are getting new models in this edition, my bet is on forgeworld and not gw.

We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.

We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.

Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.

There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).

I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.

We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.

Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.

There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).

I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).

The only counter point I have is that there is going to be an emperor model coming out for 30k, likely when the last book of the heresy comes out. I am basing this on the fact that the emperor has been mentioned in the 30k custodes rules specifically already.
My personal guess is that when the 30k model for the emperor is released, they will also release something for the custodes...my guess is the heteaeron guard. Just my guess, could be wrong of course.

I just want sisters as troop choices. Right now I really want to like them, but eating an elites slot is too much right now.

Honestly the sisters arent all that useful, but the fact that we can take their 65pt rhinos for cheap ablative wounds and LOS blockers is way more interesting to me.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Honestly the sisters arent all that useful, but the fact that we can take their 65pt rhinos for cheap ablative wounds and LOS blockers is way more interesting to me.

A 5-sister unit can form a 12” long line that projects a 9 inch “can’t come in from reserves” aura around it. Plus being able to have even cheaper backfield objective holders would be nice.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.

We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.

Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.

There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).

I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).

New units don't need to be mentioned in the fluff befor they come out. Almost all of the primaris stuff was never mentioned in the fluff befor release.

Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.

 nordsturmking wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.

We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.

Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.

There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).

I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).

New units don't need to be mentioned in the fluff befor they come out. Almost all of the primaris stuff was never mentioned in the fluff befor release.

Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.

ObSec is critically important and you want tons of it. Not only does it score/deny primaries, but it does things like burn down Raise the Banners flags and open the door to scoring stuff like Domination consistently.

Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.

How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?

It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).

Spartacus wrote:

Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.

How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?

It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).

Yeah- how do you write such a list in custodes? is it all vehicles?

If so, the all vehicle lists that shined last edition really really do not now. objectives are far far more important and as custodes we play them very well.

I thought going into 9th that the lack of 3x3 battalion tax was a blessing, but I've quickly gone back to using 3x3 guard, even more, to provide a backbone to the armies objective power.

I think you'd really struggle at a tournament with only 2 such models.

Also keep in mind that vehicle only lists can give up multiple secondaries very, very easily. One of the biggest strengths of elite armies (and one that's generally underrated) is their capacity to construct lists in such a way that they only give up maybe half of a given secondary's value, not the full 15.

Preventing an opponent from scoring 25 points just by list construction is not something to take lightly.