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With quite a bit of time reading the rulebook, discussing the changes, and playing games with the new ruleset, how is everyone feeling overall about 6e?

Overall I like a lot of what has been done. I still can't help but cringe at a few things... mostly allies. From a fluff and hobby perspective? Great! Is it an issue for game balance? Absolutely.

From my experience I have only seen allies used to mitigate weaknesses. This is bad design as a weakness is paramount to balance armies (as much as possible).

Tau are meçdiocre in melee? Take Ork Boyz in large quantities as scoring fearless meat shields to hide behind while you blast your opponent to shreds. Custom force field on your stealth suits? Sure! 2+ cover in the open makes these guys great.

Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

From my experience allies are only used as utilities for power gaming win more players more so than fluff bunnies running silly lists.

Also- in before the logic "anyone can take them". Nids obviously cannot, and it is not even across the board via the allies matrix design. It's just a balance cluster imop.

Thoughts on this or your issues with 6e?

XenosTerminus wrote:
Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

Give the 2+ save guy a cover save with your own models. Focus Fire the rest of his unit away.

I certainly understand your issue with Allies, there are some really cheesy list combinations. However if you decide not to use Allies this gives you a small degree of influence over your opponents lists, that being Allies are an (Optional) rule. This means in a friendly game if you really don't feel like dealing with Allies shenanigans you can just ask your opponent to use a standard FOC list, not an Allies one. If it turns out they only have the models for their Allies list with them at that moment you can then decide to face them, Allies list and all, or try to find another opponent.

Shoulda name this thread "Complaining about Allies"...

Some people use Allies, some don't. If you really are against it, refuse to play them. Just like people would refuse to play draigowing, or FW lists. It's all up to you.

DarknessEternal wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

Give the 2+ save guy a cover save with your own models. Focus Fire the rest of his unit away.

Ooooh, haven't thought of that for some reason. Cheesy.

Well the intention of the thread was to discuss issues with 6e. That being said you are right...I can certainly refuse to play against them, I just don't want to be 'that guy'.

What's wrong with allies?

Read the thread for examples

None of those things really compare to a well-built list from one codex.
GK, necron, guard, are all far stronger than any "cheese" combo.
If you need help vs certain enemies (I assume you've played at least a dozen or so games against the combos you're describing), then make a thread and ask for help. Don't whinge about all allies in general.
May as well make a thread complaining about Heavy Support because you don't like Leman Russes.

The people who are complaining about allies are overreacting. From what I've seen, a lot of strong lists don't even necessarily want to take allies for several reasons. First is that taking most allies is a somewhat large point sink, and unless you only want one of the HQ choices, your probably going to be looking at bringing a hundred or so "dead" points that don't do much in order to get whatever it is you want to be taking. Especially at lower points totals this begins to be problematic (less than 2000). The second is that when people talk about covering their weaknesses, what they are failing to realize is that more often than not your better off just further embracing your strengths than trying to counteract your weaknesses. For example, lets say you're a Tau player who wants to offset their weakness in combat. While you 'could' take some Ork allies, why not just take some more guns instead? The increased amount of firepower you would be able to put out would offset your disadvantage in melee. A squad of 30 boyz charging a fire warrior team is problematic, 5 boyz might not even survive the overwatch fire. This also is part of the reason that min-max lists tend to be stronger than more generalized lists. While sometimes taking allies can help you augment what you are doing, most often taking allies will merely end up diluting the best part of your army.

Tau are meçdiocre in melee? Take Ork Boyz in large quantities as scoring fearless meat shields to hide behind while you blast your opponent to shreds. Custom force field on your stealth suits? Sure! 2+ cover in the open makes these guys great.

Not Legal.

Kustom Force Field doesn't work on them due to being counted as an enemy by the Alliance of Convenience rule. They don't benefit from it, just the orks. They'd have to be Battle Brothers to.

Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

Maneuver, shoot them from behind and aim for the farseer.

Not all allies are problematic for sure.. you just never see people take them for funsies. They are typically combos or cheap troop alternatives. If you dont see an issue with the balance bending potential allies CAN deliver I don't know what to say other than you have not played against some of the abusable options.

If at any point I need to have a discussion on beating a list the spirit if the game dissapears for me. My point is, if I do not have the tools to beat an army that capitalizes on these ally combos where my army wouls normally be able to all-comers against single foc lists, there is a problem.

The game has changed with 6th ed.

people just need to readjust their all-comers lists.

DeathReaper wrote:The game has changed with 6th ed.

people just need to readjust their all-comers lists.

But why adjust and change when I can complain!?

curran12 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The game has changed with 6th ed.

people just need to readjust their all-comers lists.

But why adjust and change when I can complain!?

Thus was neither constructive or a necessary comment. I stated my opinion on something and presented examples. I have yet to hear anyone offer a realistic solution to the problem other than refuse to play against it.

Btw the previously stated tactic of focus fire wont worm because of LOS. Also, harlies are all characters, have ridiculous cover, and hit and run via the Baron. Ignore it? Maybe. The variation in game types wont guarantee you can ignore a unit, especially if you lack mobility. The blanket statement "ignore death stars" is a cop out that is easier said than done.

Problems I've had with 6th Edition?....

I haven't managed to get round to a game yet. Something to do with my garage needing more tidying before I can get my table back together.

Mostly what I have found that I have trouble with is with the editing. There is a lot of rules references without page numbers of the rules, that would have made things quicker. Also the fact that they put the Psychic Powers in the back of the book.

The other issue is with the format of the FAQs. They did a good job other than to get the rules of one character you have to go over 2-3 different pages.

As far as is goes for Allies causing Cheese List, the people who are building those list are the same who were doing it before Allies so there is no change there other than how they are doing it.

I have one player in my group that is using Allies to play his Sister of Battle as an ally force with his Marines or adding some Grey Knights Inquisitor and a Grey Knight Terminators along with 1 Assassin and that’s it.

The Chaos Marine player is using ally rules to add some Deamons and he is going some times add his Chaos Marines to his Guard to create his Chaos Guard.

I am working on a Harlequin Troop to add to my Space Marines and Space Wolves, just because they are cool, I don’t even care if they work well are not.

The last thing is with Kruthark killer of small aninimals and children; the book is just to big.

I think volume of fire has become much more viable over quality of fire.

By this I mean tons of str 4 or str 6 shots will often out perform one or 2 str 8 or str 9 shots.

Against the Eldar/Deldar combo volume of shots is about the only way to deal with it. throw enough shots and that save will be failed, or at least I have every other game.

allies can be used to be very broken. My friend that I play most often is at the point where he just doesn't want to play against that kind of list. My solution is to save that for competitive games, and take something else. Maybe its time to build an Archon's Court...

XenosTerminus wrote:Thus was neither constructive or a necessary comment. I stated my opinion on something and presented examples.

Which were not very good, or in some cases not even possible. You also don't seem to understand how LoS and Focus Fire work. I suggest working harder on understanding the rules before venting about what's wrong with them.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Btw the previously stated tactic of focus fire wont worm because of LOS.

Why not?

XenosTerminus wrote:Also, harlies are all characters,

No they aren't.

XenosTerminus wrote:have ridiculous cover,

Which is negatable in a variety of ways.

XenosTerminus wrote:and hit and run via the Baron.

They have Hit and Run on their own.

XenosTerminus wrote:The variation in game types wont guarantee you can ignore a unit, especially if you lack mobility.

If you lack mobility, who's fault is that?

Shocking- anecdotal examples that ignore my primary argument. Are there counters? Yes. Will/does every list or army have them and reliably while constructing a balanced list?

This is not rock paper scissors. Just because something can be countered does not mean it is not priblematic in practice for pickup games. How enjoyable would it be to face an opponent with a list you cannot counter? This is what allies allows- it multiplied the list building variables the nth degree. 5e had no issues with this

5th certainly did have problems with allies multiplying list variables. Early 5th (up until C:GK and C:SOB) had allies for most imperial lists that provided unlimited range psychic hoods, strong assault elements and all sorts of crazy fun/wacky/broken wargear.

In fact, there was a span of about a year where it was considered 'mandatory' in some circles to take an Inquisitor with Mystics and Hood for imperial lists. This led to cries of how this particular ally completely destroyed all deep striking armies, blah de blah.

Have some historical context.

Im not upset, Why? ecause allies means i can get Railguns in my army and alot more AP3 toys.

Allies do present a new set of weaknesses too. Especially if they are not battle brothers. I see it as a good way to build fluffy lists (I like fluffy). 6th edition in my experience so far is fine. I haven't encountered anything yet that I'd want to complain about.

XenosTerminus wrote:Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

If you are refering to Fortune, it only works on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

If you are refering to Fortune, it only works on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar.

Take an Eldar Unit (Warlocks or Harlequins are a common one) with a Farseer.
Attach a 2++ Archon.
Profit.

pretre wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

If you are refering to Fortune, it only works on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar.

Take an Eldar Unit (Warlocks or Harlequins are a common one) with a Farseer.
Attach a 2++ Archon.
Profit.

Seen that before, I just used Barrage weapons (Hit the farseer), alongside deepstriking (Struck the non 2++ archon) and than no more fortune.

XenosTerminus wrote:Shocking- anecdotal examples that ignore my primary argument. Are there counters? Yes. Will/does every list or army have them and reliably while constructing a balanced list?

This is not rock paper scissors. Just because something can be countered does not mean it is not priblematic in practice for pickup games. How enjoyable would it be to face an opponent with a list you cannot counter? This is what allies allows- it multiplied the list building variables the nth degree. 5e had no issues with this

It is really not a problem, since everyone* can have allies. Just learn to adapt to the new 6th ed system, and everything will work itself out.

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.

* Save Tyranids

Eldar + DkEldar = 2++ ???

Shadowfield + Farseer?

pretre wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:Then we have the rerollable 2++ insanity brought on by Eldar and Dark Eldar and their unkillable deatstars.

If you are refering to Fortune, it only works on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar.

Take an Eldar Unit (Warlocks or Harlequins are a common one) with a Farseer.
Attach a 2++ Archon.
Profit.

Again like I said, Fortune only effects Eldar units, not Dark Eldar ones. Archon is a Dark Eldar unit. Cast it if you like but it won't effect him.