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Made in us
[DCM]
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






 Dynas wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time


This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.


Wait, how are Hive Guard with Shockcannons not anti-Knight?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in it
Lurking Gaunt




Dublin

Even if they are, sometimes they are extremely outranged so the knights will always have initiative and first shooting phase.

And you are bringing them pretty much only for knights...

At this point is much better to use 3 biovores or to pile in/consolidate at just more than 1" from the knights and stop their movements.


The Hive Mind hungers... 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Texas

 Master Chief VF wrote:
No, I mostly play ETC but the same list I am playing is working quite well also in ITC as I have quite solid kill points (easier unit to kill is 24 Hormagaunts hit on a -1) and a good board control.

Anyway gang busters (reaper) is always a +4 for the opponent.

But in ETC is working way better than in ITC because of the maelstrom missions, as this is a list that achieve very easily almost every maelstrom card that I draw, specially now that you can discard up to 6 before the game (in ETC you write on your army list the cards discarded).

I just never bought a Malanthrope because in many tournaments I cannot use Forge World and I am lazy to change list for FW permitted or not permitted tournaments, so I always use the venomthropes...


Is this the list you posted in the Army list threads?
Honestly, Ill take my Guard list with Vultures, a couple of Leman russ punishers and shred the hell out of that list. Once you lose your venomthropes its going to be rough. It bleeds secondaries.

Maybe you are having better luck due to ETC, but in ITC its just not going to happen. Too much soup. To many list you have to build against. Top table you will face a Knight+Soup list once. Chaos Soup/Daemons once, a horde list (likely orks or shoota star). GSC with their crazy OP DS and ambush shenanigans, granted i havn't played them since their Recent Nerf. Possibly Necrons now (which I also Play ) and are doing good solely because of the kngiht meta. Eldar list (flier spam, and or Ynarri but probably not now) and/or Drukhari.

Eldar and GSC got hit hard in the latest FAQ. Castallen soup also took a hit, but not much. You see more triple knight list now.

In a 5 round GT if I went 3-2 I would call that beating the odds.

Now its quite possible your a better player than I, but there is a reason you dont see more people playing Nids in the ITC circuit, and with the exception of the LVO 2018 when Flyrant Spam was still around before Rule of 3 Nids haven't really faired to well.

Now Tyranids Early 8th (say only implementing the rule of 3 to stop flier spam) but keeping our Points costed and stratagems as released would be a different story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time


This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.


Wait, how are Hive Guard with Shockcannons not anti-Knight?


Because of several reasons.
FIrst you have to move and have line of sight, which means they can see you, and you are know target priority 1 of enemy.
2nd, STR 7 vs T8 to a 3+/4++
6 Hivegaurd (with kronos and assuming you didn't move and get to use reroll 1's) is doing 3.11 wounds (before mortals which I will get to in a second). If you take away Kronos its 2.67 which is more likely given the range of the weapon.
Lets say you shoot twice for 3 Cp. Now you have done 5.34 wounds to a 4++

Now half of those 5.34 wounds is going to be 4+ ( so you are looking at another 2.5ish wounds). If your luck and get 6s you get D3 wounds, so 2 on average.

Max potential wounds, if you get 6's on all your wound rolls is 5.34 + 15= 20 wounds. THis is under favorable circumstances with great luck on your side. More likely you are doing 7.34 wounds on average (with 3 cp a turn). Not even enough to degrade them.

Thats how hive guard shock cannon are not anti tank.

EDIT:

Kronos Hive Guard (x6) with Impaler Cannons, and shoot twice do 9.33 wounds on average to a knight of T8/ 3+/4++
Longer range, and you can hide, and you do more damage on average. And your not gonna get shot of the board T1 or T2. Impaler Hive Guard are the best we got, and that still not dropping them a tier.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/28 20:57:11


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*I'm on Bartertown as Dynas 
   
Made in it
Lurking Gaunt




Dublin

Guys don't rely on Hive guards (both types) even against transports, because once you shoot twice with SMA nothing else can shoot at what just disembarked from that transport, so those units are safe for that shooting phase.

And once they struggle even to kill a rhino is quite sad...

You cannot even rely on the second salvo for opening screens or bubble holes, because also hive commander has to be used BEFORE Single Minded Annihilation.

The Hive Mind hungers... 
   
Made in nl
Raging Ravener




 Dynas wrote:
Spoiler:
 Master Chief VF wrote:
No, I mostly play ETC but the same list I am playing is working quite well also in ITC as I have quite solid kill points (easier unit to kill is 24 Hormagaunts hit on a -1) and a good board control.

Anyway gang busters (reaper) is always a +4 for the opponent.

But in ETC is working way better than in ITC because of the maelstrom missions, as this is a list that achieve very easily almost every maelstrom card that I draw, specially now that you can discard up to 6 before the game (in ETC you write on your army list the cards discarded).

I just never bought a Malanthrope because in many tournaments I cannot use Forge World and I am lazy to change list for FW permitted or not permitted tournaments, so I always use the venomthropes...


Is this the list you posted in the Army list threads?
Honestly, Ill take my Guard list with Vultures, a couple of Leman russ punishers and shred the hell out of that list. Once you lose your venomthropes its going to be rough. It bleeds secondaries.

Maybe you are having better luck due to ETC, but in ITC its just not going to happen. Too much soup. To many list you have to build against. Top table you will face a Knight+Soup list once. Chaos Soup/Daemons once, a horde list (likely orks or shoota star). GSC with their crazy OP DS and ambush shenanigans, granted i havn't played them since their Recent Nerf. Possibly Necrons now (which I also Play ) and are doing good solely because of the kngiht meta. Eldar list (flier spam, and or Ynarri but probably not now) and/or Drukhari.

Eldar and GSC got hit hard in the latest FAQ. Castallen soup also took a hit, but not much. You see more triple knight list now.

In a 5 round GT if I went 3-2 I would call that beating the odds.

Now its quite possible your a better player than I, but there is a reason you dont see more people playing Nids in the ITC circuit, and with the exception of the LVO 2018 when Flyrant Spam was still around before Rule of 3 Nids haven't really faired to well.

Now Tyranids Early 8th (say only implementing the rule of 3 to stop flier spam) but keeping our Points costed and stratagems as released would be a different story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time


This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.


Wait, how are Hive Guard with Shockcannons not anti-Knight?


Because of several reasons.
FIrst you have to move and have line of sight, which means they can see you, and you are know target priority 1 of enemy.
2nd, STR 7 vs T8 to a 3+/4++
6 Hivegaurd (with kronos and assuming you didn't move and get to use reroll 1's) is doing 3.11 wounds (before mortals which I will get to in a second). If you take away Kronos its 2.67 which is more likely given the range of the weapon.
Lets say you shoot twice for 3 Cp. Now you have done 5.34 wounds to a 4++

Now half of those 5.34 wounds is going to be 4+ ( so you are looking at another 2.5ish wounds). If your luck and get 6s you get D3 wounds, so 2 on average.

Max potential wounds, if you get 6's on all your wound rolls is 5.34 + 15= 20 wounds. THis is under favorable circumstances with great luck on your side. More likely you are doing 7.34 wounds on average (with 3 cp a turn). Not even enough to degrade them.

Thats how hive guard shock cannon are not anti tank.

EDIT:

Kronos Hive Guard (x6) with Impaler Cannons, and shoot twice do 9.33 wounds on average to a knight of T8/ 3+/4++
Longer range, and you can hide, and you do more damage on average. And your not gonna get shot of the board T1 or T2. Impaler Hive Guard are the best we got, and that still not dropping them a tier.


I think you made a slight mistake in calculating shock guard mortal wounds. You took half of their dealt wounds for the mortal wound generation, but they're wounding on a 5+ on those shots. So effectively you have them causing mws on half of those 5+ wounds (a 6+), instead of on each 4+ wound roll.

I'm getting 18.6 total damage dealt for six double shooting stationary kronos guard (slightly over 15 if jormungandr). They still die horribly after, but they definitely take a chunk out of a knight.

Spoiler:

24*.78*.33*.5*2=6.2 dmg for the regular hits
24*.78*.33=6.2 additional dmg for the wound rolls of 4 and 5
24*.78*.17*2=6.2 additional dmg for the wound rolls of 6
18.6 in total

Let me know if I messed up somewhere, it's late here.
   
Made in it
Lurking Gaunt




Dublin

 Dynas wrote:


Is this the list you posted in the Army list threads?
Honestly, Ill take my Guard list with Vultures, a couple of Leman russ punishers and shred the hell out of that list. Once you lose your venomthropes its going to be rough. It bleeds secondaries.



Man there is so much optimism in here.

You are not considering many factors like:

In some tournaments there is no FW, but anyway I think I shouldn't complain about it and just be prepared and know that I might get something that for 200 points has more than 50 shots. So I should know how to face it.

Mission (I guess you are mostly playing ITC so pretty much every mission is the same, but in ETC and considering maelstrom missions and kill points on every single game is different. I like ITC but I prefer ETC because of much more variety).

The field that may allow me to hide important units (like venomthropes and Swarmlord). And counting that I am deploying like 140 models you are not going to shoot those units on your T1 (except for mortars and basilisks), not even with the flyers, because you won't find LoS for those as you won't have any space do leave that big base the vultures have.

The deployment and the distances between the 2 forces.

Whos going first.

Who's having the initiative. Sometimes going first does not mean to have the initiative... Because even if someone is going first but is not going to do many damages and the counter attack will be harder or he will be in an uncomfortable spot for 1 or 2 turns, he has no initiative on the opponent.

And double activations in the fight phase and splitted double activations like overrun + adrenal sourge that might bring you to contact very far stuff, preventing it from shooting and being safe from shooting and making other important units safe from shooting, like the broodlords for example.

The stratagem prepared positions that is helping quite a lot on case you are not going first as the genestealers will.have 4+, the little ones will have 5+ and the Swarmlord and his pals will.be on a 2+. Everything combined with -1 to hit aura possible long range charges so there's no need to expose yourself too much, makes really a great difference.



I dunno your list but by my experience I faced 3 times something like:

-3 vultures
-3 punisher hq (the ones with +6" range and from the specialist detachment)
-various characters HQ and Elites
-60 guardsmen
-3 scout sentinel
-9 mortars

And maybe other stuff that I don't really remember...

Pretty standard list for people that like to roll a lot of dices.

But anyway I always won.

Once i seized initiative, but I was in the conditions to give proper value on that and not waste it (some stuff advanced). But at the same time if I was not able to seize the initiative (like 83% of the times) most of the stuff was at a safe range, the Swarmlord able to redeploy and prepared positions for everything in cover. So even if I was not counting on it, it was something that I considered and I got rewarded.

Another time it was a much harder fight where the opponent was going first, but I set the deployment in pretty much the same way. I won but not that much, and in that game the Broodlords did some heavy lifting.

And the last time the opponent did a huge mistake scouting 9" forward with the sentinels after knowing that for sure I was going to start, and he got horribly punished for that.



And by the way I've noticed that in case the opponent has no units with fly (not flyers, they just need to be able to fly), he has no chances to win against that list.

There are not many, but the ones without fly most of the times I don't even need to charge for being able to win the game but I can just win by moving models. At least in ETC and GW formats.

The Hive Mind hungers... 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Texas

shortymcnostrill wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
Spoiler:
 Master Chief VF wrote:
No, I mostly play ETC but the same list I am playing is working quite well also in ITC as I have quite solid kill points (easier unit to kill is 24 Hormagaunts hit on a -1) and a good board control.

Anyway gang busters (reaper) is always a +4 for the opponent.

But in ETC is working way better than in ITC because of the maelstrom missions, as this is a list that achieve very easily almost every maelstrom card that I draw, specially now that you can discard up to 6 before the game (in ETC you write on your army list the cards discarded).

I just never bought a Malanthrope because in many tournaments I cannot use Forge World and I am lazy to change list for FW permitted or not permitted tournaments, so I always use the venomthropes...


Is this the list you posted in the Army list threads?
Honestly, Ill take my Guard list with Vultures, a couple of Leman russ punishers and shred the hell out of that list. Once you lose your venomthropes its going to be rough. It bleeds secondaries.

Maybe you are having better luck due to ETC, but in ITC its just not going to happen. Too much soup. To many list you have to build against. Top table you will face a Knight+Soup list once. Chaos Soup/Daemons once, a horde list (likely orks or shoota star). GSC with their crazy OP DS and ambush shenanigans, granted i havn't played them since their Recent Nerf. Possibly Necrons now (which I also Play ) and are doing good solely because of the kngiht meta. Eldar list (flier spam, and or Ynarri but probably not now) and/or Drukhari.

Eldar and GSC got hit hard in the latest FAQ. Castallen soup also took a hit, but not much. You see more triple knight list now.

In a 5 round GT if I went 3-2 I would call that beating the odds.

Now its quite possible your a better player than I, but there is a reason you dont see more people playing Nids in the ITC circuit, and with the exception of the LVO 2018 when Flyrant Spam was still around before Rule of 3 Nids haven't really faired to well.

Now Tyranids Early 8th (say only implementing the rule of 3 to stop flier spam) but keeping our Points costed and stratagems as released would be a different story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time


This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.


Wait, how are Hive Guard with Shockcannons not anti-Knight?


Because of several reasons.
FIrst you have to move and have line of sight, which means they can see you, and you are know target priority 1 of enemy.
2nd, STR 7 vs T8 to a 3+/4++
6 Hivegaurd (with kronos and assuming you didn't move and get to use reroll 1's) is doing 3.11 wounds (before mortals which I will get to in a second). If you take away Kronos its 2.67 which is more likely given the range of the weapon.
Lets say you shoot twice for 3 Cp. Now you have done 5.34 wounds to a 4++

Now half of those 5.34 wounds is going to be 4+ ( so you are looking at another 2.5ish wounds). If your luck and get 6s you get D3 wounds, so 2 on average.

Max potential wounds, if you get 6's on all your wound rolls is 5.34 + 15= 20 wounds. THis is under favorable circumstances with great luck on your side. More likely you are doing 7.34 wounds on average (with 3 cp a turn). Not even enough to degrade them.

Thats how hive guard shock cannon are not anti tank.

EDIT:

Kronos Hive Guard (x6) with Impaler Cannons, and shoot twice do 9.33 wounds on average to a knight of T8/ 3+/4++
Longer range, and you can hide, and you do more damage on average. And your not gonna get shot of the board T1 or T2. Impaler Hive Guard are the best we got, and that still not dropping them a tier.


I think you made a slight mistake in calculating shock guard mortal wounds. You took half of their dealt wounds for the mortal wound generation, but they're wounding on a 5+ on those shots. So effectively you have them causing mws on half of those 5+ wounds (a 6+), instead of on each 4+ wound roll.

I'm getting 18.6 total damage dealt for six double shooting stationary kronos guard (slightly over 15 if jormungandr). They still die horribly after, but they definitely take a chunk out of a knight.

Spoiler:

24*.78*.33*.5*2=6.2 dmg for the regular hits
24*.78*.33=6.2 additional dmg for the wound rolls of 4 and 5
24*.78*.17*2=6.2 additional dmg for the wound rolls of 6
18.6 in total

Let me know if I messed up somewhere, it's late here.


I went to the math hammer website. I think I did the Mortal wound input right. ON the options I did 1 mortal wound on 4+ and for 6+ i did D3.

Its giving me 14.22 wounds vs T8 3+/4++ with Kronos and Shoot twice. 13.33 without Kronos.

But like you said your gonna die next turn. If you deploy in the open and don't get first turn your risking getting shot before you can do anything. So its unlikely you will get the Kronos buff.
Besides, the knight will just pay the 1 CP to shoot at top shelf anyway. And you have the range issue. 24+6" move and you may have issues reaching some stuff.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Master Chief VF wrote:
Guys don't rely on Hive guards (both types) even against transports, because once you shoot twice with SMA nothing else can shoot at what just disembarked from that transport, so those units are safe for that shooting phase.

And once they struggle even to kill a rhino is quite sad...

You cannot even rely on the second salvo for opening screens or bubble holes, because also hive commander has to be used BEFORE Single Minded Annihilation.


Uh....not sure what you are getting at here?
I assume you are referencing the fact that you have to use SMA at end of shooting phase.


A single unit of 6 Kronos IMpaler cannon hive guard will deal 12.29 wounds to a Rhino on average NOT using SMA>
So you can shoot the rhino, kill it and then...
You can shoot stuff that disembarked from a transport.

You use devilgants to clear screens. 90 shots or 180 with shoot twice.
Do shots should be able to clear screens and then you can Hive Commander in.

So order of operations would be.
Shoot Hive GUard kill tank.
Devilgants kill screen
Hive commander move the Genestealerers through the gap.
SMA unit of your choice.

Charge Phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Master Chief VF wrote:
 Dynas wrote:


Is this the list you posted in the Army list threads?
Honestly, Ill take my Guard list with Vultures, a couple of Leman russ punishers and shred the hell out of that list. Once you lose your venomthropes its going to be rough. It bleeds secondaries.



Man there is so much optimism in here.

You are not considering many factors like:

In some tournaments there is no FW, but anyway I think I shouldn't complain about it and just be prepared and know that I might get something that for 200 points has more than 50 shots. So I should know how to face it.

Mission (I guess you are mostly playing ITC so pretty much every mission is the same, but in ETC and considering maelstrom missions and kill points on every single game is different. I like ITC but I prefer ETC because of much more variety).

The field that may allow me to hide important units (like venomthropes and Swarmlord). And counting that I am deploying like 140 models you are not going to shoot those units on your T1 (except for mortars and basilisks), not even with the flyers, because you won't find LoS for those as you won't have any space do leave that big base the vultures have.

The deployment and the distances between the 2 forces.

Whos going first.

Who's having the initiative. Sometimes going first does not mean to have the initiative... Because even if someone is going first but is not going to do many damages and the counter attack will be harder or he will be in an uncomfortable spot for 1 or 2 turns, he has no initiative on the opponent.

And double activations in the fight phase and splitted double activations like overrun + adrenal sourge that might bring you to contact very far stuff, preventing it from shooting and being safe from shooting and making other important units safe from shooting, like the broodlords for example.

The stratagem prepared positions that is helping quite a lot on case you are not going first as the genestealers will.have 4+, the little ones will have 5+ and the Swarmlord and his pals will.be on a 2+. Everything combined with -1 to hit aura possible long range charges so there's no need to expose yourself too much, makes really a great difference.



I dunno your list but by my experience I faced 3 times something like:

-3 vultures
-3 punisher hq (the ones with +6" range and from the specialist detachment)
-various characters HQ and Elites
-60 guardsmen
-3 scout sentinel
-9 mortars

And maybe other stuff that I don't really remember...

Pretty standard list for people that like to roll a lot of dices.

But anyway I always won.

Once i seized initiative, but I was in the conditions to give proper value on that and not waste it (some stuff advanced). But at the same time if I was not able to seize the initiative (like 83% of the times) most of the stuff was at a safe range, the Swarmlord able to redeploy and prepared positions for everything in cover. So even if I was not counting on it, it was something that I considered and I got rewarded.

Another time it was a much harder fight where the opponent was going first, but I set the deployment in pretty much the same way. I won but not that much, and in that game the Broodlords did some heavy lifting.

And the last time the opponent did a huge mistake scouting 9" forward with the sentinels after knowing that for sure I was going to start, and he got horribly punished for that.



And by the way I've noticed that in case the opponent has no units with fly (not flyers, they just need to be able to fly), he has no chances to win against that list.

There are not many, but the ones without fly most of the times I don't even need to charge for being able to win the game but I can just win by moving models. At least in ETC and GW formats.


It could be the ETC is your success. I have only ever played ITC as that is what all the tourneys here use. FW is allowed. ANything with a Datacard essentially.

Sentinels are good for the brigade but yeah I don't move them up for DS denial anymore because you give the opponenet(Especailly a melee one) easy way to sling shot into your army without getting shot at. 3 punishers tanks and 3 vultures is a little overkill for hordes.

I like the indirect fire stuff like mortars, wyverns, basilisk, maybe take 2 punisher (tank or vulture). A vulture can move pretty far and i find it difficult to hide 20 man blobs of units. the indirect fire stuff picks off the venomthropes first.

Im just looking at the National/international meta results. You may be having success in ETC with Nids and no FW and thats good. But in ITC they are sub par.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the Tyranid stats for ITC tourneys.

Tyranids #List #Detachments Win%

Behemoth 6 8 44.58%
Hydra 1 1 40.00%
Jormungandr 13 15 43.08%
Kraken 148 220 49.29%
Kronos 55 59 44.67%
Leviathan 23 35 49.20%
Tyranids 1 1 20.00%
Unknown 7 7 27.86%
Tyranids Total 254 346 47.11%

None of our armies even break 50% win rate


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at a GT list.

What is the logic behind taking Chamelonic Mutation on a Malanthrope? Its additional -1 doesn't spread to the rest of the army and it already has character protection. See below:

4th Place
Shawn Prosser - Desert Rat GT

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [54 PL, 8CP, 939pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ HQ +
Broodlord [8 PL, 115pts]: Power: Catalyst
Malanthropes [5 PL, 140pts]: Chameleonic Mutation

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 16:24:07


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I will be running a few mini games against my brother's orcs today. I need to know the best way to kit out a Boordlord for maximum hack n slash. So far my plan is Hive Fleet Behemoth for WT Monstrous Hunger, and Chameleonic Mutation to help hi get into melee. Probably Catalyst for the psychic power. I figure I would bring this to the wisdom of the hive mind to get tips.

We are doing 2 one V one battles, first just stock builds, then with WT and relics. After that we will throw in some troops and sock it out.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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 Dynas wrote:
shortymcnostrill wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
Spoiler:
 Master Chief VF wrote:
No, I mostly play ETC but the same list I am playing is working quite well also in ITC as I have quite solid kill points (easier unit to kill is 24 Hormagaunts hit on a -1) and a good board control.

Anyway gang busters (reaper) is always a +4 for the opponent.

But in ETC is working way better than in ITC because of the maelstrom missions, as this is a list that achieve very easily almost every maelstrom card that I draw, specially now that you can discard up to 6 before the game (in ETC you write on your army list the cards discarded).

I just never bought a Malanthrope because in many tournaments I cannot use Forge World and I am lazy to change list for FW permitted or not permitted tournaments, so I always use the venomthropes...


Is this the list you posted in the Army list threads?
Honestly, Ill take my Guard list with Vultures, a couple of Leman russ punishers and shred the hell out of that list. Once you lose your venomthropes its going to be rough. It bleeds secondaries.

Maybe you are having better luck due to ETC, but in ITC its just not going to happen. Too much soup. To many list you have to build against. Top table you will face a Knight+Soup list once. Chaos Soup/Daemons once, a horde list (likely orks or shoota star). GSC with their crazy OP DS and ambush shenanigans, granted i havn't played them since their Recent Nerf. Possibly Necrons now (which I also Play ) and are doing good solely because of the kngiht meta. Eldar list (flier spam, and or Ynarri but probably not now) and/or Drukhari.

Eldar and GSC got hit hard in the latest FAQ. Castallen soup also took a hit, but not much. You see more triple knight list now.

In a 5 round GT if I went 3-2 I would call that beating the odds.

Now its quite possible your a better player than I, but there is a reason you dont see more people playing Nids in the ITC circuit, and with the exception of the LVO 2018 when Flyrant Spam was still around before Rule of 3 Nids haven't really faired to well.

Now Tyranids Early 8th (say only implementing the rule of 3 to stop flier spam) but keeping our Points costed and stratagems as released would be a different story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
I am already doing this. Being sincere about the lack of competitiveness of current Tyranids is the only saving grace for our 2019 CA changes. If our voice isn't going to be heard because we think that we're fine (whilst we really aren't) then it's better to loudly express our concerning feelings, even resulting somewhat repetitive.

CA 2018 brought almost nothing to us Tyranids (only Swarmlord and Broodlord were truly a lifesaver for our lists) if not lower-end scale changes that needed to be addressed differently by different margins (i.e. Many more changes affecting the unused part of the codex and hefty point decreases that didn't happen);let's not repeat the same error this time


This. When our codex dropped we were top tier. Even if they had only made the rule of 3 change we would have still been top tier. Malanthropes are overpriced for a -1 shroud. Look at eldar for comparison. 120 pts should be fair. Nerf to lictor is unusable. Hiveguard are good anti tank, but we don't have any ANTI KNIGHT. We don't have a LoW. Swarmy is fair price now. Broodlords are better as are warriors, but still points changes alone arn't going to fix this. I don't think I have seen a single warrior played both before and after the update.

Everything is Genestealer, HT, swarmy, hivguard, termies, neuro for synapse,

Carnifexes are cheaper but suffer the same issue as Leman Russ, no invul save.
Tervigons while cool in theory really need to be 9 wounds for character protection.
Biovores went up, only way to really deal with knights via mortal wounds from far away.
We need a LoW that isn't Apoc scale, we are one of the only remaining armies without one.

But the main issue comes from the nerfing of stratagems and Hive fleet doctrines. Chagnes to fly, which are reverted back helped a bit. Deep strike changes was a big nerf to us since a lot of our assault armies get shot up now.

The last GT i went to had 130+ players, there were 2 pure nid players (granted a fair amount of GSC) but blah.


Wait, how are Hive Guard with Shockcannons not anti-Knight?


Because of several reasons.
FIrst you have to move and have line of sight, which means they can see you, and you are know target priority 1 of enemy.
2nd, STR 7 vs T8 to a 3+/4++
6 Hivegaurd (with kronos and assuming you didn't move and get to use reroll 1's) is doing 3.11 wounds (before mortals which I will get to in a second). If you take away Kronos its 2.67 which is more likely given the range of the weapon.
Lets say you shoot twice for 3 Cp. Now you have done 5.34 wounds to a 4++

Now half of those 5.34 wounds is going to be 4+ ( so you are looking at another 2.5ish wounds). If your luck and get 6s you get D3 wounds, so 2 on average.

Max potential wounds, if you get 6's on all your wound rolls is 5.34 + 15= 20 wounds. THis is under favorable circumstances with great luck on your side. More likely you are doing 7.34 wounds on average (with 3 cp a turn). Not even enough to degrade them.

Thats how hive guard shock cannon are not anti tank.

EDIT:

Kronos Hive Guard (x6) with Impaler Cannons, and shoot twice do 9.33 wounds on average to a knight of T8/ 3+/4++
Longer range, and you can hide, and you do more damage on average. And your not gonna get shot of the board T1 or T2. Impaler Hive Guard are the best we got, and that still not dropping them a tier.


I think you made a slight mistake in calculating shock guard mortal wounds. You took half of their dealt wounds for the mortal wound generation, but they're wounding on a 5+ on those shots. So effectively you have them causing mws on half of those 5+ wounds (a 6+), instead of on each 4+ wound roll.

I'm getting 18.6 total damage dealt for six double shooting stationary kronos guard (slightly over 15 if jormungandr). They still die horribly after, but they definitely take a chunk out of a knight.

Spoiler:

24*.78*.33*.5*2=6.2 dmg for the regular hits
24*.78*.33=6.2 additional dmg for the wound rolls of 4 and 5
24*.78*.17*2=6.2 additional dmg for the wound rolls of 6
18.6 in total

Let me know if I messed up somewhere, it's late here.


I went to the math hammer website. I think I did the Mortal wound input right. ON the options I did 1 mortal wound on 4+ and for 6+ i did D3.

Its giving me 14.22 wounds vs T8 3+/4++ with Kronos and Shoot twice. 13.33 without Kronos.

But like you said your gonna die next turn. If you deploy in the open and don't get first turn your risking getting shot before you can do anything. So its unlikely you will get the Kronos buff.
Besides, the knight will just pay the 1 CP to shoot at top shelf anyway. And you have the range issue. 24+6" move and you may have issues reaching some stuff.


My math gave me ~8 wounds per six HG unit, non-Kronos, prior to firing twice (which is not far off either of your calculations). That seems pretty dang good against a Knight, tbh. I'm wondering what units we're possibly comparing against (in any army) that fares better at range. Back when the Castellan had it's 3++, I was looking at 3 units of Hive Guard having tunneling up (I play Jorm) and having a reasonable chance of one-shotting it.

That seemed quite good, considering that 8 Lascannons at BS 3+ (no rerolls) would only manage to do 6.2 wounds vs. T8 3+4++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/02 20:54:00


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Today I had a game against Daemons.

His list was 140 plague bearers, 3 nurglings, some nurgle characters, a slaanesh character and a supreme command thousand sons with Ahriman, 2 DPs, terminator sorcerer and something else.

I had soo much fun.

It really was a nice game.

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Netherlands

 Master Chief VF wrote:
Today I had a game against Daemons.

His list was 140 plague bearers, 3 nurglings, some nurgle characters, a slaanesh character and a supreme command thousand sons with Ahriman, 2 DPs, terminator sorcerer and something else.

I had soo much fun.

It really was a nice game.


What was your list?

   
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Dublin

My list was:

Swarmlord, catalyst, onslaught, Warlord,
Flyrant full dakka, cameleonic mutation, the horror, scream,

20 genestealers
3 ripper swarms
27 termagants

3 Tyrant Guards
3 Venomthropes



Broodlord, the horror,
Broodlord, the horror,

20 genestealers
20 genestealers
20 genestealers

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ITC and ETC are very different , most ITC lists cant be played in ETC, same for some ETC lists, they play with different rules, ITC has custom missions rely a lot on secondaries (most of them are kill something) where ETC heavily rely on obj control (CA2018), lists like Tyr are great about board control and if you play them properly in ETC, you can win. In ITC tyr usually wont perfom so good cause secondaries rely on kill something, and tyr aren't very resilient, you can score points on obj but if your army is almost annillathed you lose in ITC. No reason to compare two games formats so deeply different, as well pointless compare ETC/ITC lists, imho.

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Dublin

On ETC nids are so strong that you can use them as a first or second defender.

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just what i said in ETC they are strong, in ITC perhaps lot less

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nids are crap in ITC currently. They do well in Warzone: Atlanta missions and ETC currently. Mabey adepticon's packet as well. Not sure about NOVA, haven't played those in a while.

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Ok boyz, new discussion, how fare we in the game of apocalypse? I haven't gotten to look over all the new datasheets, but mayhaps our big bugs are a bit better with the new rule set.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ok boyz, new discussion, how fare we in the game of apocalypse? I haven't gotten to look over all the new datasheets, but mayhaps our big bugs are a bit better with the new rule set.


I started a new thread for it. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/777936.page#10504650

I don't want to get the regular 40k discussions all confused with the apoc stuff since its all so different. Also unless they make a Apoc section of the forum this should all be in specialist games.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

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Netherlands

Another thing: what is your ideas on Walking tyrants, other then the Swarmlord? I like the build with devrourers and claws so it can be build for both shooting and still is alsmost effective in CC as a dedicated CC tyrant.

   
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 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Another thing: what is your ideas on Walking tyrants, other then the Swarmlord? I like the build with devrourers and claws so it can be build for both shooting and still is alsmost effective in CC as a dedicated CC tyrant.

But still why not give the same build wings? It’s just better

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The only argument I can see is if you play like a Jormungandr heavy monster list and dont wanna lose the bonus maybe? Maybe?(This is a stretch here)
   
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Karang029 wrote:
The only argument I can see is if you play like a Jormungandr heavy monster list and dont wanna lose the bonus maybe? Maybe?(This is a stretch here)


To be honest I would bring jormungandr for the deep strike, not anymore for the cover on the monsters.

Much better Leviathan for the survivability, specially counting that on opponent's T1 you might be in cover anyway due to the 2cp stratagem.

At least spamming monsters I would go for the Leviathan and take the wings on the Tyrants.

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 astro_nomicon wrote:
 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Another thing: what is your ideas on Walking tyrants, other then the Swarmlord? I like the build with devrourers and claws so it can be build for both shooting and still is alsmost effective in CC as a dedicated CC tyrant.

But still why not give the same build wings? It’s just better


Well, because the wings cost a lot of points. And I am not going to use the deepstrike ability because much of my army is already deepstriking and the tyrant would bring me over the limit. Running him as Kraken for the -1 on shooting.

   
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Well... wings does a few things.

Option for DSing which is good at times
Gives you fast synapse and fast moving FLY unit which both are very good
Gets you in range to use powers if need be
Lets you sniper character out if dakka/psychic

I honestly dont see any reason NOT to take wings outside of Apoc.

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 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well... wings does a few things.

Option for DSing which is good at times
Gives you fast synapse and fast moving FLY unit which both are very good
Gets you in range to use powers if need be
Lets you sniper character out if dakka/psychic

I honestly dont see any reason NOT to take wings outside of Apoc.


The value of the wings is quite clear. But since the flyrant is always such a massive priority-target for your opponent the wings are a serious premium (50% of a carnifex). A walking tryant is not quick but not slow either. I think he can be very usefull as well but of course didn't try it out yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 06:48:04


   
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What are our best weapons against Death Guard, notably plague marines and characters?

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well... wings does a few things.

Option for DSing which is good at times
Gives you fast synapse and fast moving FLY unit which both are very good
Gets you in range to use powers if need be
Lets you sniper character out if dakka/psychic

I honestly dont see any reason NOT to take wings outside of Apoc.


The value of the wings is quite clear. But since the flyrant is always such a massive priority-target for your opponent the wings are a serious premium (50% of a carnifex). A walking tryant is not quick but not slow either. I think he can be very usefull as well but of course didn't try it out yet.


Played my first two game with Nids this week. The Hive Tyrant on foot performed quite alright. He is obviously not a powerhouse due to only having 4 attacks. But he had some staying power mainly due to not being the main focus of my opponent. In each game he was supporting (Onslaught, Catalyst) in turn 1 and doing damage (dakka, smite, charge) turn 2 lasting multiple turns. I will probably keep him in the list and pair him with a flyrant.

The use of genestealers puzzles me a bit. I don't want to throw them across the board for a first turn to kill some screen only to be whiped out. Holding them back makes them a prime target and being slaughtered. They are expensive and most of my list is composed of monsters so the anti-infantry firepower has few better targets. Do they have a use in a Nidzilla list at all?

   
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Lord Blackscale wrote:What are our best weapons against Death Guard, notably plague marines and characters?


Generally speaking, you want to look at multi-damage guns (Impaler Cannon, Venom Cannon) or melee weapons (most of the "Monstrous" melee weapons) with a moderate to high rate of fire/volume of attacks to make it harder for them to save models with Disgusting Resilience. For small arms fire, Deathspitters are reasonably good since they have high rate of fire and sufficient strength to counteract the toughness advantage of most Death Guard infantry while also having some AP (Devourers loose out here - better reserved for Pox Walkers).

Second option would be mortal wound spam, via smite and weapon-created Spore Mines (Biovores, Sporocyst, Harpy). The Death Guard still get to take their Disgusting Resilience against such wounds, but bypassing their armor/invul increases the likelihood of the damage sticking. Against a character you could also pop Implant Attack after they make a Disgusting Resilience check for added mortal wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/01 22:10:54


 
   
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 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 Singleton Mosby wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well... wings does a few things.

Option for DSing which is good at times
Gives you fast synapse and fast moving FLY unit which both are very good
Gets you in range to use powers if need be
Lets you sniper character out if dakka/psychic

I honestly dont see any reason NOT to take wings outside of Apoc.


The value of the wings is quite clear. But since the flyrant is always such a massive priority-target for your opponent the wings are a serious premium (50% of a carnifex). A walking tryant is not quick but not slow either. I think he can be very usefull as well but of course didn't try it out yet.


Played my first two game with Nids this week. The Hive Tyrant on foot performed quite alright. He is obviously not a powerhouse due to only having 4 attacks. But he had some staying power mainly due to not being the main focus of my opponent. In each game he was supporting (Onslaught, Catalyst) in turn 1 and doing damage (dakka, smite, charge) turn 2 lasting multiple turns. I will probably keep him in the list and pair him with a flyrant.

The use of genestealers puzzles me a bit. I don't want to throw them across the board for a first turn to kill some screen only to be whiped out. Holding them back makes them a prime target and being slaughtered. They are expensive and most of my list is composed of monsters so the anti-infantry firepower has few better targets. Do they have a use in a Nidzilla list at all?


The trick is to consolidate into another unit. Or if there isn't anything nearby, only put 1 model actually within attack range. Fight with the one guy on your turn. Then tripoint lock a model in your consolidation phase. Then the following turn in your opponent fight phase activate the entire unit and wipe that unit. Now when its your turn it can move and charge to full effect.

Note: its sometime possible to get T1 charge. Pile or consolidate into multiple units (often with the use of Overrun) and or Fight again stratagem.

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Just some talk on the current state of the game, and Tyranids place in it: I'm finding Dakkafexes outperform basically every other unit in all my matches. So cost effective for the speed, durability, and volume of dice, they aren't trivial to remove nor to ignore, and can force a ton of saves on anything smaller than a Rhino. Everyone knows Genestealers and Termagants are good, but I feel like Dakkafex are the hidden strength of the dex.


Also, 30 man Termagant units with 10 or 15 devourers are really nice board control that actually puts out wounds, and for bout 150 pts or so isn't at all points inefficient - that's the same cost as a 30 man Cultist squad except with built in Fearless mechanic and way better chapter tactics (most likely Kraken), and the 30 to 50 shots actually gives them an impact. And they have to clear out the entire squad nearly before they actually start impacting the dice they put out, for the most part.


I know it's going to sound like blasphemy, but I've been finding Hive Guard to be less and less effective. They are highly terrain dependant, which is sometimes a problem if you get the wrong table edge (or just the wrong table in some events - yes, I know they should be using more terrain, but the fact is plenty of places just don't), and also extremely match up dependant. Vs Knights for example they basically take an entire game of chewing up CP to down a single Knight which is basically not even worth doing, and they just get evaporated immediately vs anything with highly mobile shooting that can get an angle on them (Aeldari / Necron / Guard flyers for example) because even with the newer bases they still have a significant footprint. Let alone the amount of units that do "no-LoS" even better and don't even need LoS to delete them, like Broadsides. And in the mirror, you have no way of guaranteeing you shoot first, or if they have Flyrants for whatever reason (which aren't a top tier unit anymore but also aren't uncommon to see in some form) they can just chew em out. I take more than enough Gants to screen them out from deepstrikers, but blocking deepstriker threats just isn't enough to protect them anymore I think. They are decent when they are good, buy in the current state of the game they feel a little too coinflippy.

I think I'm going to swap to GSC bikes for the role. Fire and forget, instant results, and not terrible for other roles than their own.

This is also probably another unpopular opinion, but I also think Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex isn't too bad at all now (after the point reduction and with Castellan AP4 being less prevalent), especially in the right style of list, e.g. if you are forcing them to make a decision between putting their AT on to your TFexes or Dakkafexes that are in their face, and with a Malanthrope next to them they are quite tough, and are getting instant results on hostile Armor of any size, just save a CP re-roll for the D6 damage roll imo. Yeah, they are worse vs Elite units, and Primaris are about to get popular, but they still aren't bad here and I never have any trouble gunning down Elite infantry with weight of dice, especially since those units almost always want to come to you (where you can just light em up).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And of course I'll probably be using OOE too for back up AT too

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2019/08/09 08:01:26


 
   
 
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