Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.

Except the 3 artillery tanks we lost are ARE the short ranged ones. The Medusa isn't a long ranged barrage weapon, it's a direct firing short to medium range tank. The Griffin is just a heavy mortar, the Colossus is a REALLY heavy mortar.

The one that stayed, the Basilisk, is the long ranged artillery cannon that really has no place on a standard battlefield and would be better suited to something that sits far off in the distance (even in game it has a 36" minimum range!). Even back as a 10yo kid when I started 40k in the mid 90's my first thought upon seeing a Basilisk painted up as part of one of the store armies was "wow, that's cool, but how does it even work with that giant ship's cannon".

I suppose they could adapt by increasing the role of Master of Ordnance and other forward observers. Make them an option for PCS squads, or separate forward observer teams (like HWT, but call in earthshaker shells). That would make PCS way more powerful if they could take Masters of Ordnance. More squishy than tank artillery (arguably), fewer points, more scatter. Fits pretty well with the real-life role of artillery.

Proposed special rule zeroing in/danger close. Your shots get more accurate as the observer helps the arty crews zero in on their target. If the master of ordnance called in a shot last turn, he receives +1 BS this turn.

 Blacksails wrote:

And if there's DLC, err, 'Dataslates' for units/characters that were cut from the base codex, I'll figuratively lose my gak. And by that, I mean I'll probably post something on this forum and shake my head vigorously at GW's webpage.

Naughty, naughty wargame company! Go sit in the corner until you've learned your lesson!

(I'll be joining you in that reaction, should such events come to pass.)

 Spinner wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

And if there's DLC, err, 'Dataslates' for units/characters that were cut from the base codex, I'll figuratively lose my gak. And by that, I mean I'll probably post something on this forum and shake my head vigorously at GW's webpage.

Naughty, naughty wargame company! Go sit in the corner until you've learned your lesson!

(I'll be joining you in that reaction, should such events come to pass.)

Well, I can make some hyperbolic claim of flipping tables at the nearest GW, but realistically I'll just post something about my disappointment and continue to not spend money towards GW.

To add onto Peregrine's last bit about command tanks, giving us options to field Russes in the HQ slot to free up heavy slots doesn't really matter as much when we lose a solid 1/4th of our heavy support choices, especially ones that tended to work decently well with russ support (or at least, that's what I thought)

 Blacksails wrote:
If Pask turns out to be 70pts as leaked, I'm not sure he'll be any better than he currently is.

I think he's much better now. Pask is almost mandatory in the current codex for some of the variants, since the increase in firepower from BS 4 is way more than the increase in point cost. Now you pay 20 points more, but get even more special rules and a critical FOC swap. Freeing up another heavy support slot is nice, but the important thing is that now you can take your mandatory warlord HQ as a powerful AV 14 tank, not a squishy command squad. TBH it's one of the very few things they got right with this codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If Pask turns out to be 70pts as leaked, I'm not sure he'll be any better than he currently is.

I think he's much better now. Pask is almost mandatory in the current codex for some of the variants, since the increase in firepower from BS 4 is way more than the increase in point cost. Now you pay 20 points more, but get even more special rules and a critical FOC swap. Freeing up another heavy support slot is nice, but the important thing is that now you can take your mandatory warlord HQ as a powerful AV 14 tank, not a squishy command squad. TBH it's one of the very few things they got right with this codex.

Right, I keep forgetting that he's moved to HQ now. Does he get orders now too?

I'm still leery about fielding a 240pts+ tank, as it still feels like a lot of points in a single unit, but the other bonuses help.

Yup, he gets the tank orders according to the leaked info.

M.

Yeah he should get the 3 orders as well since the tank commander upgrade is only 30pts and Pask costs 70pts

so "Flat out" 6+D6"
Shoot and smoke
Officer can shoot at something else

Any changes to the Leman Russ anywhere? I looked around best I could... really hoping that something allows a LR that doesn't move to fire battlecannon and other blasts again... poor LR.

@ Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?

Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.


Have you been playing in 6th edition... we have been nerfed since it dropped. We have vulnerable scoring units that isnt fixed and we just lost are best maneuverability option in the vendetta and are next best ride just got a 10pt hike. So forgive us if we are a little upset at still being unable to get that objective in your deployment zone. Also dropping the characters isn't permanent... there will be probably 3 more guard supplements.

Against my better judgement, I picked up some of the Scions today if anyone wants to know about the physical kit.

They don't turn out too bad once assembled, but they are kind of a pain in the dick to put together, primarily because the backpack, both arms, and gun all have to fit together *just so*. You can't just pick any set of guns and arms backpacks, and slap them together, they physically won't fit or you end up with sillyness like cables that don't connect. Only the fact that they're suck thick, easily handled plastic, makes them less infuriating than the DKoK Grenadiers.

There's an absurd ton of extras, there's more parts still on the sprue than I actually used, this set easily could have been split into two different boxed sets, as if you're just making 10man command Scion squads you're gonna end up with enough parts to kit out 4 command squads.

Russes never screamed to me as "Oh My God!" to be honest. Making one 70 pts more and moving it to the HQ slot is kinda bad. You can't really "look out, sir" squadron wounds and so much stuff ignores cover these that I'd be scared to invest in him. The Beatstick Boss from Space Marines is about the same price and far more resilient, more killing, and even has his own "pie plate" to dish up first turn.

It's weird that PBS are going to be just "Psykers." Will there be a minimum size and then "X more Psykers increases Mastery Level" style thing?

Out of all the things to keep, Rough Riders seem to be the weirdest. In all my travels, I don't think I've seen them used once. And I saw Mandrakes played once!

People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday. I'm know we won't like some things GW will do but nobody likes change. For those who really dont like anything from GW anymore i will see you on eBay

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dravenguild wrote:
Do we know about the allies table? Storm troopers codex lacked chaos allies, I hope they don't kick us out of all the fun with Astra Militarum

What did you expect, Battle Brothers with an organization that is made up of people who are raised with the people who would later become Commissars, Priests, and Sororitas?

I wasn't expecting a smartass remark from you, shill.

Merely a simple question.

3 point conscripts are going to ruin my life. The new face of the power blob is 100 conscripts shooting then running d6" forwardwith priests hidden inside, 40 guardsmen behind the, and 2 pcs for orders on top of the ccs. Total for the 150 guardsmen in 2 platoons is 560 points. A mass conscript charge doesn't even need power weapons with hatred and shred.

Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun. Does anybody know the price of demo?

I'm also curious how the new psykers will work.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun.

Cheaper, but much less effective. Three melta guns for 100 points is way better than two for 80. But when you consider the cost of the Chimera it gets even worse. A melta vet squad in the current codex is three melta guns in a Chimera for 155 points. Now you get two melta guns in a Chimera for 145 points. That's a huge drop in effectiveness for only a very small cost reduction. I'm not (yet) going to say that vets will never be used again, but this is a crippling nerf that is absolutely stupid. GW needs to fire the moron responsible for this.

As for the defensive upgrades, they're still wasted points because it's still a 10-man squad of guardsmen that depends on its transport for protection. And now they're really wasted points because you don't even have three guns to protect anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:
Making one 70 pts more and moving it to the HQ slot is kinda bad.

It's a huge upgrade. BS 4 and a twin-linked or rending main gun is amazing, along with (IIRC) preferred enemy and tank hunters. Do the math and the percentage increase in firepower is usually going to be quite a bit more than the percentage increase in cost. Meanwhile the HQ move solves one of the current problems with IG: the squishy HQ that is pretty much a free VP for killing the warlord. Now instead of a guardsman your warlord is an AV 14 tank.

 410mcollins wrote:
People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday. I'm know we won't like some things GW will do but nobody likes change. For those who really dont like anything from GW anymore i will see you on eBay

I think that goes without saying. If it turns out we've all been hoodwinked, then clearly many of the opinions portrayed here are baseless.

 410mcollins wrote:
People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday.

We've seen pictures of the codex. Believing that this is some kind of fraud is just wishful thinking at this point.

schadenfreude wrote:3 point conscripts are going to ruin my life. The new face of the power blob is 100 conscripts shooting then running d6" forwardwith priests hidden inside, 40 guardsmen behind the, and 2 pcs for orders on top of the ccs. Total for the 150 guardsmen in 2 platoons is 560 points. A mass conscript charge doesn't even need power weapons with hatred and shred.

Even if it was the most effective army in the world, screw that! Moving 150 models would take frakking ages.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

 410mcollins wrote:
People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday. I'm know we won't like some things GW will do but nobody likes change. For those who really dont like anything from GW anymore i will see you on eBay

I think that goes without saying. If it turns out we've all been hoodwinked, then clearly many of the opinions portrayed here are baseless.

I hope we'll all be pleasantly surprised... at this point I highly doubt it though. Especially since we've seen several pages from the Spanish version and a couple of pages from what appears to be the ipad version, at this point you'd think most the rumours are probably right.

 Peregrine wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun.

Cheaper, but much less effective. Three melta guns for 100 points is way better than two for 80. But when you consider the cost of the Chimera it gets even worse. A melta vet squad in the current codex is three melta guns in a Chimera for 155 points. Now you get two melta guns in a Chimera for 145 points. That's a huge drop in effectiveness for only a very small cost reduction. I'm not (yet) going to say that vets will never be used again, but this is a crippling nerf that is absolutely stupid. GW needs to fire the moron responsible for this.

No, I welcome this nerf. Everyone and their grandmother was spamming meltavets in chimeras ever since the IG codex released in 2009. The idea that you basically have a tank that can drive up and fire 3 S8 AP1 shots at BS4 without even disembarking (so you can keep that carapace upgrade to yourself) would even make Space Marine players blush. To the point where regular IG infantry squads werent even considered. 6th nerfed mech lists (incl. "you arent scoring unless you disembark") and made the gunline viable, but I think removing 1 special weapon seals the deal.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun.

Cheaper, but much less effective. Three melta guns for 100 points is way better than two for 80. But when you consider the cost of the Chimera it gets even worse. A melta vet squad in the current codex is three melta guns in a Chimera for 155 points. Now you get two melta guns in a Chimera for 145 points. That's a huge drop in effectiveness for only a very small cost reduction. I'm not (yet) going to say that vets will never be used again, but this is a crippling nerf that is absolutely stupid. GW needs to fire the moron responsible for this.

No, I welcome this nerf. Everyone and their grandmother was spamming meltavets in chimeras ever since the IG codex released in 2009. The idea that you basically have a tank that can drive up and fire 3 S8 AP1 shots at BS4 would even make Space Marine players blush. To the point where regular IG infantry squads werent even considered. 6th nerfed mech lists and made the gunline viable, but I think removing 1 special weapon seals the deal.

Actually I agree that Vets needed a rebalance against regular infantry platoons and don't really mind the reduction in special weapons, they didn't really need to increase the cost of the Chimera in the process though.

I think that if you somehow manage to allow an AV 12/10/10 vehicle that can only fire snapshots at cruising speed to get within 12 inches of something you really want to not die, it kind of deserves to die.

And, furthermore it's only 3 shots. At BS3.

Vets can probably still get their third special weapon back with a ministorum priest. In every Codex to date where his revamped version appeared he got the option for at least a plasma gun iirc, its certainly so in Inquisition.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think that if you somehow manage to allow an AV 12/10/10 vehicle that can only fire snapshots at cruising speed to get within 12 inches of something you really want to not die, it kind of deserves to die.

And, furthermore it's only 3 shots. At BS3.

yeah one is no problem, but if there are usually 4 coming at you, each being able to move 6" and still fire 3 BS4 S8 AP1 shots, and with 6th edition allowing them to make an 18" sprint on turn 1, you bet they'll find their targets.

And the fact that the Chimeras themselves could be equipped with Heavy Flamers to take care of GEQ means this unit was arguably flawless. Now if GW hadnt broken Eldar with the Wave Serpent, I'd actually think they're trying to fix things.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think that if you somehow manage to allow an AV 12/10/10 vehicle that can only fire snapshots at cruising speed to get within 12 inches of something you really want to not die, it kind of deserves to die.

Erm, yeah, if it was 1 tank with 12/10/10 with 3 meltas/plasmas contained within, sure. But people often took 3+ of them, plus some Vendettas with melta vets, along side some flame shooting tanks to make sure you're well and truly target saturated. And then once you kill the Chimera(s), the vets don't just vanish, they can still suicide advance toward your armour to get in melta range.

And, furthermore it's only 3 shots. At BS3.

We're talking about vets here, they're Bs4.

Melta vets in Chimeras were definitely spammed more than they deserved, but the changes we have received I don't really think that we are getting any better balance because Vets have had a points drop and the Chimera a points rise, making regular Infantry platoons in Chimeras even less appealing than they were before.

I think the idea was to make vets in chimeras a viable option, instead of a mandatory must-have.

Problem is, as AllSeeingSkink pointed out, regular Guardsmen in Chimeras are costlier now for absolutely no reason other than the Chimera perhaps being a powerfully armed transport if you've got an opponent who is daft enough to only keep targeting its front armor.

Anti-tank veterans may have been nerfed, but anti-infantry ones seem to have got a bit better, assuming that the Sergeant can take a boltgun for 1 point like the new infantry squad sergeant can.

Old Veteran Squad

6 Lasguns, 3 Plasma Guns @ 115 points

Shooting at MEQ in 5+ cover @ 24"

Lasguns: 4 Hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Plasma Guns: 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.11 unsaved wounds.

Total: 1.55 wounds, 0.0135 unsaved wounds per point.

New Veteran Squad

7 Lasguns, 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Bolter @ 91 points

Lasguns: 4.67 hits, 1.55 wounds, 0.52 unsaved wounds.
Bolter: 0.67 hits, 0.33 wounds, 0.11 unsaved wounds.
Plasma: 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.74 unsaved wounds.

Total: 1.37 unsaved wounds, 0.015 unsaved wounds per point.

I don't much mind removal of the artillery tanks. It was unnecessary, but on the other hand they're still perfectly usable with FW rules, so it really doesn't matter. Makes even certain sense, FW kits -> FW rules.

However, poor penal legion! Are they really gone? I know they were bad, but I converted models for them, damn it!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Against my better judgement, I picked up some of the Scions today if anyone wants to know about the physical kit.

They don't turn out too bad once assembled, but they are kind of a pain in the dick to put together, primarily because the backpack, both arms, and gun all have to fit together *just so*. You can't just pick any set of guns and arms backpacks, and slap them together, they physically won't fit or you end up with sillyness like cables that don't connect. Only the fact that they're suck thick, easily handled plastic, makes them less infuriating than the DKoK Grenadiers.

There's an absurd ton of extras, there's more parts still on the sprue than I actually used, this set easily could have been split into two different boxed sets, as if you're just making 10man command Scion squads you're gonna end up with enough parts to kit out 4 command squads.

I just can't get over the fact that it's $35 for 5 wimpy Guardsmen. Should've gotten at least 10 per box at that price. And is it true that even though the kit has crap tons of extra parts, it's still missing options? I heard it only had one of each special weapon, which I naively thought GW was starting to move away from since it doesn't sell more boxes like they hope but just drives people to eBay and bits sites, which still remain in business despite their efforts to cut them off.

Also, I just noticed that the Militarum Tempustus codex is "no longer available" on the website. So...was that a first for GW, a limited edition army, or did they just run out of stock?

 Peregrine wrote:
Pretty much everything that made IG infantry fun and effective is either nerfed into uselessness or removed entirely, leaving only the tanks and aircraft.

It's just as well, I don't think anyone can afford to buy IG infantry anymore anyway. Not to say tanks and aircraft aren't expensive, but holy hell I don't want to know how much it costs to build an IG infantry horde. It's not even worth it anyway because both of your options, Cadians and Catachans, are both horribly outdated kits and some of the ugliest GW still produce.

http://astropate.blogspot.se/2014/04/nuova-astra-militarum-foto-del-codex-e.html#more

So did I read it right that weapon upgrades for Heavy Weapon Squads (not teams in regular Veteran and Infantry Squads) no longer cost anything?

Also, with people being able to spam so cheap Conscripts and the Wyverns with their gazillions of twin-linked small blasts, you'd wonder if GW's new main suggested strategy for IG players is to annoy their opponents to death.