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 ace101 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.

I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.

Not everyone will let you take FW though.

I guarantee you there will be a few players out there who will have models effectively removed, because their group won't let them use the exact same rules they had before because the rules now come from FW.

It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."

After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?

@Kan. Going with some other bad choices in the current allies matrix to be battle brothers with Chaos ofc

M.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."

After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?

Do people actually say that in a casual setting? I don't even really play Warhammer 40k and that comes off to me like something only a real jack ass would say.

In a tournament setting or a more official competition, that's another thing entirely, of course.

I cant find the new rumors link people are commenting on, can someone please post it again or tell me what page it is on, thank you.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.

I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.

Not everyone will let you take FW though.

I guarantee you there will be a few players out there who will have models effectively removed, because their group won't let them use the exact same rules they had before because the rules now come from FW.

It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."

After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?

I know, its just so annoying.

I mean (and i wish i had the Joker for this), people play Triptide Taudar and Tri-drakes and nobody really bats and eye (they maybe annoyed afterwords). Play against a now FW only medusa spam list and everyone loses their minds.

And the 'FW crap is so OP' excuse sucks, FW balance is all over the place just like regular GW balance, maybe even less so. The next time someone complains about a R'vana I'll tell them about the O'vesa star or the Flying Circus.

 ace101 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.

I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.

Not everyone will let you take FW though.

I guarantee you there will be a few players out there who will have models effectively removed, because their group won't let them use the exact same rules they had before because the rules now come from FW.

It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."

After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?

I know, its just so annoying.

I mean (and i wish i had the Joker for this), people play Triptide Taudar and Tri-drakes and nobody really bats and eye (they maybe annoyed afterwords). Play against a now FW only medusa spam list and everyone loses their minds.

And the 'FW crap is so OP' excuse sucks, FW balance is all over the place just like regular GW balance, maybe even less so. The next time someone complains about a R'vana I'll tell them about the O'vesa star or the Flying Circus.

Since the best solution for a broken game is to break it further.

Or you could all not buy the book and keep using the extremely well made codex you have now.

It may not have a powerhouse deathstar, but I don't think the new book is getting you that, either.

If GW wants the community to solve the problem, let's solve it by keep using the current book that works.

Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.

 Tomb King wrote:
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.

Imperial Knights?

Heafstaag wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.

Imperial Knights?

Separate army.

 Tomb King wrote:
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine.

Every codex except for Dark Angels, Space Marines and Chaos Daemons... and Sisters of Battle, Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus, if they count.

I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.

 alarmingrick wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.

Imperial Knights?

Separate army.

Separate codex... lol. Imperial Knights have their own codex.

I really thought they were going to bring a big tank in for this release. Something with 4 HP etc...

 TheSilo wrote:
It sort of feels like they're trying to rebalance IG with a pivot to infantry rather than artillery and vendettas.

I think it's the exact opposite, the new rules are forcing IG even more to being an army of tanks supported by a few infantry squads camping on objectives and desperately praying that they don't attract too much attention. Vets have been crippled, penal legion are gone, outflanking platoons are gone, SITNW is gone, platoons still suffer from the fundamental problem of being a unit with mediocre offense and no way to move up from behind the ADL, and storm troopers/rough riders/etc don't score. Pretty much everything that made IG infantry fun and effective is either nerfed into uselessness or removed entirely, leaving only the tanks and aircraft.

On the good side, now I can take a Stormblade in a 1500 point game and make up for my poor never-to-be-used-again vets.

I think the reason veteran players (including myself) are upset about the rumors is because it eliminates units that we like, used, and probably scratch built.

I bought two griffins back in third edition. I couldn't use them in fourth, got them back in 5th and lost them again in 6th.

I really loved the idea of massed infantry and scratch built an Al' Raheem for outflanking. Now I can't use him.

Marbo was a fun addition and shook things up. He did some wacky things, and not just with the demo charge. Now he's gone.

I'm ok with the vendetta increase, I think every IG player understands why.

It used to be that you could make the guard into any kind of force you wanted, from any kind of planet you wanted, and still have a good, fun game. Now I don't know.

I'm holding my breath and hoping that the codex allows the same feel, I guess we'll know this weekend.

Biophysical wrote:
I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.

But even then, the Medusa and Griffon would still have a legitimate reason to be there.

The Medusa is a purpose built siege weapon designed to crack bunkers at close range, and the Griffon is a light artillery piece designed to be mobile so it can keep up with the infantry.

Honestly, they have a more legitimate reason to be in the codex than the Basilisk, Deathstrike, or Manticore, since you would have a good chance of actually seeing Medusas and Griffons at the scale of conflict the typical 40k game represents.

Biophysical wrote:
I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.

But we already had a Chimera-based mortar: the Griffon. The Wyvern is a completely pointless unit that only has a place because GW removed the existing unit that filled its role, requiring you to buy new tanks unless you're lucky enough to play in an area that isn't infested by TFGs and their no-FW rules.

Believe me, I would trade Wyverns for Griffons in a heartbeat, I own the old 3rd edition model, and I hate the whole idea of swapping on of the very first models I bought for some hideous piece of trash that lazy designers decided to make as an alternative to Hydras. I also hate having to buy a forgeworld book just to use stuff I already could use. I also hate any time units get dropped, because a lot of money, time, and energy goes into buying and modeling these guys.

However, if I can put all that aside, a regular mortar sized support vehicle is kind of cool (the Griffon gun is massive for a mortar). I certainly won't buy Wyvern/Hydras on moral grounds, but I could convert some Wyverns to add some more cheap, light artillery to my army.

Oh, and having a model isn't a case for being deleted. For SoB, we lost Arch Confessor Kyrnov who had a (pretty cool, IMO) model and he was deleted out of our book for no reason. He was lumped into the points cost for Jacobus and he saw a points increase because of it.

So reduced options. "Streamlined" as they might say.

Sad, sad, sad.

 Tomb King wrote:
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.

IG don't need another big monster thing.

I point everyone to the Baneblade and other tanks of its class. They are formidable as they are.

A new flyer?

Nope... They don't need any more of those either.

All this belly aching about the new book as its not even out yet.

Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?

Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.
Tau got stronger, but the old units and options were nerfed hard. Eldar got stronger and some old units that were very mediocre got really good. Even Marines got a change of stuff to a point.

What are Guard getting? Tank Commanders for a start. They could be über, but until we know the points, the jury is out. Also... Paaaaaaask!!! Pask is going to be insane. Cheap Autocannon Sentinels are looking good IMO.

Yes the points for the Chimera went up and the Vendetta has been hit hard, but they were too cheap and OP respectively in the last book.

I'm not a Guard player, but I will be one from Saturday onwards. The new book is controversial in its changes, but all this doomsaying is crazy when for little effort, changes to your armies can be made.

As for the missing and removed units, I agree, there is no excuse for it and I totally understand why you veteran IG players are pissed.

That's my two cents anywho.

Yea, 2+ on infantry and AP 4 from a griffon is waaaay better than S4 AP6 shredding. Even if the wyvern is cheap, the problem is that it still eats a heavy support slot. Might be worth the points, but I'd rather take another leman Russ, or put the points into a mortar squad.

Biophysical wrote:
I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.

Except the 3 artillery tanks we lost are ARE the short ranged ones. The Medusa isn't a long ranged barrage weapon, it's a direct firing short to medium range tank. The Griffin is just a heavy mortar, the Colossus is a REALLY heavy mortar.

The one that stayed, the Basilisk, is the long ranged artillery cannon that really has no place on a standard battlefield and would be better suited to something that sits far off in the distance (even in game it has a 36" minimum range!). Even back as a 10yo kid when I started 40k in the mid 90's my first thought upon seeing a Basilisk painted up as part of one of the store armies was "wow, that's cool, but how does it even work with that giant ship's cannon".

So a few pages back it was said how Pask can do different things in different tanks. Executioner could shoot a large blast plasma shot with blinds and gets hot....I may be missing something but when is it ever better to shoot 1 large blast instead of 3 small? I'm sure the 3 small shots will all have gets hot now but it's pretty rare for a tank to burn itself. (Need to roll a 1 followed by a 3 or less on another d6.)

I love the rending on the punisher, I always thought the punisher needed rending anyway to illustrate the way a gatling gun can cut things in half. I am planning on getting Pask with a second in command tank filling up my Hvy with yet more tanks since my colossus are gone, maybe use my 3 scratch built hydras if they can shoot at ground targets normally.

Too bad Chenkov is gone now that conscripts are cheaper....


Edit:The colossus had a range of 24" - 240" only the deathstrike had a longer range of infinite. IMHO the colossus was by far the best and most usefull artillery.

 alarmingrick wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.

Imperial Knights?

Separate army.

Actually, from a certain point of view [/jedi master] that's the new "right" way of playing, yesterday went to a store kind of far from my place and two guys were starting a match. When I asked about their armies one told me Chaos Demons and the other said it was difficult to explain but primary detachment IG. Then he proceeded to put on the table a Baneblade, BA allies, an dataslate and then I left shaking my head without wanting to know if he was using fortifications or not.
I'm telling this because this is not GW saying buy the latest toy but rather a segment of the player base deciding that they want to have everything and the kitchen sink in their army and to them armies are no longer a thing from one codex but a menagerie. I don't agree with this way of thinking but apparently it's becoming more common and either as I've been saying previously in this thread either we start talking with other how we feel comfortable playing or our enjoyment of 40K will follow GW's share price.

So again from a certain point of view Imperial Knights are the IG big tanks and when Peregrine decries that he can't get people to allow FW (especially things that used to be in a dex) I want to go Picard at the dumbassery.

M.

Biophysical wrote:
(the Griffon gun is massive for a mortar)

I don't know why you think that. The Griffon's gun is no bigger than one of the Wyvern's, and the shells (which fit the scale of the gun) are appropriately sized compared to real mortar shells.

Puscifer wrote:

Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.

Yes the points for the Chimera went up and the Vendetta has been hit hard, but they were too cheap and OP respectively in the last book.

I am going to say it, anyone who thought the chimera was OP was bad at 40k.

Sure, in 5th ed, but in 6th, hullpoints and better AT guns brought them down to being reasonable. Chimeras were troop transports that excelled at what they did, which was transport troops. AV 10 sides and rear meant all you had to do was to flank them and they would go away.

There is no reason for the price increase besides selling the new transport. Removing options that are standard on many other Imperial Vehicles (smoke launchers and searchlights) is dumb. I am worried that the "lasguns can fire" part of the chimera rumors means that you get to fire lasguns out the back. That nerf would effectively cripple the chimera.

Puscifer wrote:

A new flyer?

Nope... They don't need any more of those either.

I was mostly hoping the Thunderbolt would go in to the codex and not be completely and utterly crap like it is at the moment.

All this belly aching about the new book as its not even out yet.

So are you gonna stop yer bitchin when the book comes out and people are still complaining about the exact same things that are now?

Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?

No, but it would be nice to at least play with the same models instead of having them REMOVED from the codex.

Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.

I'm not sure why guard needed a nerf. Other than Vendettas was there really any problem with the existing guard codex? Also "new way to play the army", as I've said earlier, I DON'T want OP monobuilds. The same as the 'nid Codex, I want balance and diversity. I really don't care we got the ultra competitive Skyblight monobuild, and if guard get their own OP build, I also won't care.

Also... Paaaaaaask!!! Pask is going to be insane. Cheap Autocannon Sentinels are looking good IMO.

What happened to waiting until the codex comes out before making comments? Anyway, isn't Pask rumoured to be 70pts? Any build that uses him is going to be 240+pts. Yeah, he's going to be cool, yeah, I'm going to probably have a Pask tank, but do we really think a 240pt Leman Russ that can die in the first turn or couple of turns is going to be a game changer? Pask seems more "fun" than "game changer".

But yes, probably the main exciting thing in the coming codex for me is the Tank Commanders, excited to see how they turn out.

Yes the points for the Chimera went up and the Vendetta has been hit hard, but they were too cheap and OP respectively in the last book.

Really? Chimeras were too OP'd? Sorry I'm not seeing it. They were pretty easy to kill and only packed a small punch. You can compare them to other tank transports, but most tank transports aren't awesome now either. Chimeras, in my eyes, weren't OP'd, they were "viable", but not OP'd.

That's my two cents anywho.

That's cool... I will admit after the 'nid dex I'm probably overly pessimistic.

 portugus wrote:
I love the rending on the punisher, I always thought the punisher needed rending anyway to illustrate the way a gatling gun can cut things in half.

In Pask's case, that'll be to cut a Land Raider in half by glancing it to death.

Puscifer wrote:
Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?

Maybe not at the same power level, but I don't expect my army to instantly become illegal because the new codex removed entire units and took away options from others.

Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. IG don't need a nerf because, outside of the Vendetta, IG aren't all that powerful. Don't let memories of early 5th edition interfere with your judgement.

Tau got stronger, but the old units and options were nerfed hard.

Not really. The only thing Tau lost was the ability to move and shoot effectively with their tanks, and IMO that has more to do with their rule authors being incompetent morons and not realizing how important the ability was than a deliberate decision to nerf their tanks. I mean, Hammerheads even got an awesome new character while the Sky Ray became a proper AA unit, so they clearly want you to use those tanks.

What are Guard getting? Tank Commanders for a start. They could be über, but until we know the points, the jury is out. Also... Paaaaaaask!!! Pask is going to be insane.

That's still just one tank, in an army that often runs out of points to spend on LRBTs before it runs out of FOC slots. It's a nice option, but it doesn't make up for all the things we're losing. And, more importantly, it turns IG into even more of a "spam tanks, table your opponent, who cares about objectives" army. Giving IG more tanks while turning our infantry into useless paperweights was not the change we needed.

If Pask turns out to be 70pts as leaked, I'm not sure he'll be any better than he currently is.

He has some better abilities, but he's also 20pts more. He's a tough sell in the current book, and frankly, with his new abilities, even 50pts would be steep.

It is neat that he does different things based on the tank you drop him in.

Why does GW do this? They have these really cool ideas, but are either executed so poorly or come out half-baked you're just left wondering what it is they do in the office.

Every time I think of one of the positives in this book, I find myself with something equally negative or disappointing. I'll need the book to really get a feel, but its not shaping up the way I hoped.

And if there's DLC, err, 'Dataslates' for units/characters that were cut from the base codex, I'll figuratively lose my gak. And by that, I mean I'll probably post something on this forum and shake my head vigorously at GW's webpage.