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Ketara wrote:Everyone has the right to respond when they're in the court of public opinion. ... You then weigh in with some incredibly inflammatory comments, and then tell him he's not allowed to defend himself?

QFT.
He chooses to serve you but he is not your servant. Entitlement is one of the more glaring forms of pride.

Ketara wrote:Whilst corporate entities might not respond to you baiting them, its because they're not personally involved, and honestly don't care what you have to say.

I like the fact Chapterhouse posts here. It gives it a personal touch. If that means he acts slightly unprofessional at times, so be it. It shows the fact there's a human on the other end that I can talk to, and work out my problems with as and when necessary, as opposed to a faceless corporate entity. I think you'd find he responded a lot more professionally though, if you'd cease baiting him, and then accusing him of being unprofessional at getting hot under the collar at what are thinly veiled insults at his ability to run a business.

QFT. Chapterhouse could have handled it more diplomatically, but it doesn't give license to bait in the first place. Especially since no opportunity was given to resolve this privately.

Did you read the original "complaint"? I quoted it above. I'm failing to see the vitriol or "bizarre axe grinding" it looks like a fairly straightforward description of the posters experience and his reaction to it.

Again, maybe he didn't even think it was worth contacting the company about. $31 wasted, oh well. That doesn't mean that he's never allowed to tell anyone what happened.

I'm also allowed to state that CH's behaviour is unprofessional. If he expects to reap the benefits of having a presence on a forum, he has to take the negatives as well, which is commentary on the way he conducts himself. What I would prefer, is that he handles himself in a professional manner. He is choosing not to do so, so yes, I will continue to suggest that that is unacceptable. I don't expect him to change how's he acting, he's established in the past that he thinks critiquing another manufacturers work publicly is acceptable, so I'm pretty aware of who he is.

If you think it's acceptable, or somehow endearing, for a business owner to suggest publicly that any detractors or dissatisfied customers have hidden agendas or are simply liars, then that's your prerogative.

Well I guess I was brought up differently Casa.
To err is human etc.

If I had some faulty goods from CH I don't see how bitching on this thread would conceivably address my grievences.

The complaint is a personal issue and it is simply bad form to use this thread as an excuse to defame Chapterhouse, instead of following a more constructive procedure.

Sending an email after posting negative comments here is not a reasonable way to behave.

plastictrees wrote:Did you read the original "complaint"? I quoted it above. I'm failing to see the vitriol or "bizarre axe grinding" it looks like a fairly straightforward description of the posters experience and his reaction to it.

'Bunch of lip' 'lack of professionalism' 'childish and bitter' are just a few of things I'm picking out from the OP. That's no straightforward experience description.

Again, maybe he didn't even think it was worth contacting the company about. $31 wasted, oh well. That doesn't mean that he's never allowed to tell anyone what happened.

Sure. But in that case, what's he doing weighing in on a discussion about the company with his experiences if eh can't even be arsed to sort out his problems? That's where the idea of 'axe grinding' suddenly comes into play.

I'm also allowed to state that CH's behaviour is unprofessional. If he expects to reap the benefits of having a presence on a forum, he has to take the negatives as well, which is commentary on the way he conducts himself. What would prefer, is that he handles himself in a professional manner. He is choosing not to do so, so yes, I will continue to suggest that that is unacceptable.

Sure. You're allowed to state whatever you like. But conversely, not only is he allowed to defend himself (something you seem to have difficulty grasping), but I am allowed to point out the flaws in your reasoning. And will continue to do so. He's not being hugely professional, sure. But you're hardly in a position to decide what is and is not 'acceptable'. I believe it is. You disagree.

If you think it's acceptable, or somehow endearing, for a business owner to suggest publicly that any detractors or dissatisfied customers have hidden agendas or are simply liars, then that's your prerogative.

What I think is acceptable is irrelevant. I've agreed he acted unprofessionally. But I also pointed out that his accusers are less than unblemished white, and just as bad as he is, if not (in my eyes) worse.

Ketara wrote:

plastictrees wrote:Did you read the original "complai[url]nt"? I quoted it above. I'm failing to see the vitriol or "bizarre axe grinding" it looks like a fairly straightforward description of the posters experience and his reaction to it.

'Bunch of lip' 'lack of professionalism' 'childish and bitter' are just a few of things I'm picking out from the OP. That's no straightforward experience description.

Yeah, we're not talking about the same post at all here Ketara. I'm talking about this guy: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/31230.page
You seem to be attributing further complaints to some other, angrier, person who I don't think has even ordered from CH.

I don't really feel that you're pointing out flaws in my reasoning. We obviously just hold public representatives of companies to different standards.

@Ketara

I don't see "'Bunch of lip' 'lack of professionalism' 'childish and bitter'" in the person's description below. Nor his follow up 3 posts or so down. I think you a little confused as to who wrote the complaint.

"I picked up some product from chapterhouse the other day...the generic wolf rhino upgrade sprue #1...and it's a real disapointment to say the least...for one thing I ordered the upgrade sprue no.1 and got no.2 http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=42
and it was so badly done that I will never use it for it's intended use...and the fact that I ordered two of them and they are both wrong, like the top hatch is incredibly thin on one side...so much so that I can see light through it, and there are so many molding flaws makes me a sad panda...but those little armor pieces would look cool if I made a looted wagon for orks though...but still...waste of $31.00 "

Seemed to me fairly open complaint about the quality he received. He not stating customer service sucks. Just that his product he received didn't meet his expectations or his actual order. Fixing it after the fact doesn't change that. It only helps smooth the feathers.

Ketara wrote:

Sure. But in that case, what's he doing weighing in on a discussion about the company with his experiences if eh can't even be arsed to sort out his problems? That's where the idea of 'axe grinding' suddenly comes into play.

Ok, so now you literally appear to be saying that if he hadn't chosen to contact the company, he literally shouldn't mention to problem publicly, ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

plastictrees wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Sure. But in that case, what's he doing weighing in on a discussion about the company with his experiences if eh can't even be arsed to sort out his problems? That's where the idea of 'axe grinding' suddenly comes into play.

Ok, so now you literally appear to be saying that if he hadn't chosen to contact the company, he literally shouldn't mention the problem publicly, ever.

Ketara wrote:What I think is acceptable is irrelevant. I've agreed he acted unprofessionally. But I also pointed out that his accusers are less than unblemished white, and just as bad as he is, if not (in my eyes) worse.

It is not irrelevant. We are all potential consumers on this forum because he is a business. If consumers perceive your actions as unprofessional then they will be less inclined to patronise your services or products. You can't act unprofessionally and then claim "I only acted unprofessionally because the customer did first."

Being professional when a customer may be out of line is the whole point. He could have acted professionally and then all the other potential consumers would have seen a company acting professionally in response to a complaint, legitimate or not.

The way he feels he needs to clear ones name and defend his business is doing more harm than the accusation that started it. 90% of people on these forums know shipping mistakes happen and resin miscasts happen. It isn't the fact they happened that is in question, it is the way the company handles it. Blaming the customer, telling him he doesn't know how resin works, publicly forwarding his communications, making excuses, all of that was unneeded and unprofessional. And people are calling him on it and his response is even MORE unprofessional.

We are customers and we have the right to determine if a company is acting professionally and determine what is 'acceptable' if we choose to support them with our business or not. You may think we are all horrible ogres, but we are not selling a product to anyone so there is actual a valid and legitimate double-standard. You want to do business and people to buy your products, then you hold yourself, your actions to a higher standard or be judged poorly by your consumers.

we've had a few people weigh in with "CH cust sevice sucks" and "It wasnt what I expected"

We've also had a bunch of people weigh in with 'I've had nothing but pleasant experiences with Chapterhouse.

I'm going to weigh in on an order thats in progress (Not yet recieved)...

I ordered a custom order (Not something that you can order directly off the webiste.) Nick came up with a price for what I wanted within 4 or 5 hours. (Probably much sooner, but thats when I checked my email).

There was a slight delay on my part as I waited to get my first order from Chapterhouse. (Recieved with 2 weeks during the Xmas holidays) I then email him back with the order confirmation.

He sent me a paypal invoice, and my order was shipped within 2 days. With Email notification that the oder was shipped due to the custom nature of the order.

Excellent communication, willing to step above and beyond what is offered publically if you contact him directly. Pretty prompt shipping.

I don't know what more people want customer service wise? Do they expect sexual favors?

I definatly want gw to win. If i came up with a cool wargame and someone else made money off it without even asking i would be pretty p***ed of

nkelsch wrote:

Ketara wrote:What I think is acceptable is irrelevant. I've agreed he acted unprofessionally. But I also pointed out that his accusers are less than unblemished white, and just as bad as he is, if not (in my eyes) worse.

It is not irrelevant. We are all potential consumers on this forum because he is a business. If consumers perceive your actions as unprofessional then they will be less inclined to patronise your services or products. You can't act unprofessionally and then claim "I only acted unprofessionally because the customer did first."

Being professional when a customer may be out of line is the whole point. He could have acted professionally and then all the other potential consumers would have seen a company acting professionally in response to a complaint, legitimate or not.

The way he feels he needs to clear ones name and defend his business is doing more harm than the accusation that started it. 90% of people on these forums know shipping mistakes happen and resin miscasts happen. It isn't the fact they happened that is in question, it is the way the company handles it. Blaming the customer, telling him he doesn't know how resin works, publicly forwarding his communications, making excuses, all of that was unneeded and unprofessional. And people are calling him on it and his response is even MORE unprofessional.

We are customers and we have the right to determine if a company is acting professionally and determine what is 'acceptable' if we choose to support them with our business or not. You may think we are all horrible ogres, but we are not selling a product to anyone so there is actual a valid and legitimate double-standard. You want to do business and people to buy your products, then you hold yourself, your actions to a higher standard or be judged poorly by your consumers.

I disagree with none of this. It's far more laid out, clearly worded, and less offensive than what was previously written. Well done. And I mean that sincerely.

I do however, feel compelled to point out that sure, he got a little hot under the collar, because the previous mud slinging was personally aimed. Not the best or most professional of moves. However, I believe that considering the insults being thrown his way, and the amount of it that was undeserved, that there were mitigating cricumstances.

You say that he should professionally, like he's a big company. But the thing is, a big company wouldn't be posting on these boards anyway. Therefore the comparison is relatively moot. He's some bloke in his study, trying to make an extra buck or two to pay the bills, and people are insulting him. He's getting a little hot under the collar in responding. It could be me, or you, in another time or place in that situation, and I can see myself behaving the way he is.

As such, I empathise for his exact position here. I recognise that him being a bit negative to a negative customer is the flip side of him being incredibly positive to people who approach him in a positive manner. I prefer this myself to the multinational approach. YMMV.

Ketara wrote:You say that he should professionally, like he's a big company. But the thing is, a big company wouldn't be posting on these boards anyway. Therefore the comparison is relatively moot. He's some bloke in his study, trying to make an extra buck or two to pay the bills, and people are insulting him. He's getting a little hot under the collar in responding. It could be me, or you, in another time or place in that situation, and I can see myself behaving the way he is.

It's a bit of a no-win scenario, really. The small business owner is more likely to take criticism personally, but because of the nature of his business, and the fact that public perception can so easily make or break a small business, is in a far worse position if he responds in kind.

Being able to swallow criticism (even when you don't think it's warranted) without getting hot under the collar is a huge part of being successful in a customer service position.

I don't think there should be a problem with anyone selling things second hand. If I buy a Honda and resell it was riced up mods, I wouldn't be sued by Honda.
However, If I made car parts from scratch and put a Honda logo on it I'd be in trouble. CH has done this. They sell things with GW IP all over it.
However, selling a conversion piece for a particular model, as long as it doesn't have GW IP on it should be fine. It's like if I sell a muffler for a Honda Civic, folks have to know what it can be used for.

insaniak wrote:

Ketara wrote:You say that he should professionally, like he's a big company. But the thing is, a big company wouldn't be posting on these boards anyway. Therefore the comparison is relatively moot. He's some bloke in his study, trying to make an extra buck or two to pay the bills, and people are insulting him. He's getting a little hot under the collar in responding. It could be me, or you, in another time or place in that situation, and I can see myself behaving the way he is.

It's a bit of a no-win scenario, really. The small business owner is more likely to take criticism personally, but because of the nature of his business, and the fact that public perception can so easily make or break a small business, is in a far worse position if he responds in kind.

Being able to swallow criticism (even when you don't think it's warranted) without getting hot under the collar is a huge part of being successful in a customer service position.

I agree that its a no one situation, but why would you take internet criticism personally though? The internet itself is impersonal, so to get all hot over it just shows some kind of personal immaturity on the part of whoever is posting as chapterhouse. No one is perfect, but it just makes everyone look bad to argue over it. A clear, concise reply to the initial compaint, handle it over private channels and don't allow yourself to be troll bait, as it makes you look like a douche or a little kid with a bad temper.

Dude would be better served to just post pics of his upcoming projects and lurk the forums under a different name. He's a pretty polarizing dude at the best of times and it affects some folks views of his products.

Games Workshop... because Chapterhouse were blatantly (I mean they didn't even change the names) stomping on their intellectual property and I feel that most of the hostility geared towards them stems from Dakka's illogical obsession with making out that they're the only remaining SS combat formation.

Hope we can get back on topic again, even when it's only the usual "I hate aftermarket" posts.
This is a thread about a specific lawsuit, not the Chapterhouse customer support thread for a specific order complain.

Here's my legal $.02

Green Light (never a problem)
Re selling GW bits and models that I bought for my personal use.

Yellow Light (could be a problem based off the circumstances)
Fabricating GW bits I bought for my personal use, or sculpting my own unique bits, or 3D rendering my own unique bits without GW IP on them. Say a differently shaped, blank shoulder pad, and selling them.

Red Light (Should always be illegal)
Doing the same as above with an aquila, or UM, or other chapter iconography and IP on it, or making the bit look exactly like the GW offering, say a plasma rifle which looks virtually no different than the GW Plasma rifle which is clearly their IP.

Chatperhouse does all of the above, and I think I'd take GW's side on this.

wolfshadow wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:

Well Im still not sure if his case of him getting the wrong product is my error or his error, it wouldnt be the first time a customer clicked on the wrong item to add to a cart, with my company or any company out there. I know I still make mistakes though and if its my fault I fix them at no cost to the customer (besides time in post).

Ok seriously?!?!?!?!??! Yeah blame the infamous "clicked on the wrong item" event as your out in this..... now thats shockingly professional. I mean really do you try and make it easy for people to root against you?

The thing is here, we don't know.
The customer hasnt even provided Nick with the Order # so he can find out........

The question I am raising isn't who is right or wrong (we don't know one way or the other). My point is simply that someone who owns a business should always act in a professional manner, especially on a public forum. It doesn't take a lot to just be polite and make a good impression on the rest of the forum posters. Why even get into with a customer? He could have just asked for the order number and left it at that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
So to clarify this. You post your complaint in a public forum, in an already volatile thread instead of sending the chap an email. And then you demand he act 'like a professional'?

Seriously, I recommend you examine your own method of conflict resolution. You're coming off as quite petty and unprofessional yourself here.



I'm sure he would have done, had you chosen to air your complaint in a less combatative way.

It wasn't my complaint so I would appreciate it if you got the basic facts right. I have never bought from CH and have no idea what their customer service is like or their products. So I did not air any complaints. As an official mod on this sight I would appreciate it if you would take the time to at least get your facts straight. I did not air any complaint about items received from CH. What I did was state that as a small business owner he should act professionally at all times in order to give a good perception of himself and his business to prospective buyers. I never attacked him or said anything negative about his products. My post was very clear about that. Again I would appreciate it if you would get your facts straight before trying to slam me on a public forum.

All I know is I want Jetseer and Jetlock conversion kits from Chapterhouse, and GW be damned if I can't have them.

nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them

Then I would need you to email me his name so we can see what went on with the order, and pictures would definetly be a plus.

I will do that...in retro spec..looking back..whatever, I told him to order the upgrade kit 1 with that sweet looking skulls and whatnot on them....because I know they looked awesome, and when he got the order he said " no skulls kit...but you got something else" makes me think the order was probably messed up.....but like I said looking back...he probably did screw up the order, but I will email his name to you...and you can see the order for yourself, and see if it was just some random mistake on your shipping....or his fault for actually ordering what he knew I wouldn't like, either way...email incoming right now

Like I said I don't care is the order gets fixed or not, I'll use what was given to me...for something...like I said originally...I have orks...and strapping them onto a looted tank/rhino would be groovy, it's just the molding flaws and the broken pieces that bother me

brettz123 wrote:

It wasn't my complaint so I would appreciate it if you got the basic facts right. I have never bought from CH and have no idea what their customer service is like or their products. So I did not air any complaints. As an official mod on this sight I would appreciate it if you would take the time to at least get your facts straight. I did not air any complaint about items received from CH. What I did was state that as a small business owner he should act professionally at all times in order to give a good perception of himself and his business to prospective buyers. I never attacked him or said anything negative about his products. My post was very clear about that. Again I would appreciate it if you would get your facts straight before trying to slam me on a public forum.

My mistake, I appear to have confused you and Mr WillyBRags together on that score.

However, this does nothing except make me raise even more of an eyebrow at your terminology considering you have absolutely no stake or basis for malcontent against Chapterhouse (apparently). Calling a small time business owner 'bitter and childish' is guaranteed to raise his hackles I would think. Whilst I'm not disputing his acting in a slightly unprofessional way way (as can clearly be seen from my last post in here), I do believe you went slightly over and above board with 'insisting he was taking the low road'. Whilst you might not have meant for your comment to be interpreted in such a way, and hoped for people to read it more in line with nkelsch's last post for example, which read quite clinically and politely, it didn't quite come across like that.

insaniak wrote:
It's a bit of a no-win scenario, really. The small business owner is more likely to take criticism personally, but because of the nature of his business, and the fact that public perception can so easily make or break a small business, is in a far worse position if he responds in kind.

Being able to swallow criticism (even when you don't think it's warranted) without getting hot under the collar is a huge part of being successful in a customer service position.

I would agree with this.

Though when it comes to placing an order with Chapterhouse in the future (as I may likely do in a few weeks), I wouldn't let the fact he got a little overheated in an argument with some of his naysayers in an online forum deter me from purchasing his products. Had WillyBrags actually attempted to return the product, and been treated badly, I would be hesitant. A few sarcastic words when he's heavily under fire? Not really. I don't buy from GW because they're a 'nice' company after all. All I'm after is a decent quality product, as long as the product is good, or they deliver a suitable replacement when a mistake has been made, I'm perfectly happy to disregard a small spat between him and his naysayers. I certainly wouldn't use it as a means by which to judge whether I'm going to buy his goods or not. However, as in all cases, YMMV.

WillyBRags wrote:nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them

I don't say you are wrong, but this "Hi send me free bitz at once or I will flame you on a big internet forum. No I didn't order from you, but a friend, who by chance deleted all records of that order" sounds a bit suspicious to say the least. So if a business is a bit reluctant to comply, that is understandable.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Legally CH should loose as it's bladantly using someone else's trademarks to sell stuff. However Chapterhouse doesnt seem to be making any alternative sets. If anything they're generating sales for GW as they only sell conversion sets, which prompts the average consumer to purchase the sets from GW.

Please, do not start statements with the term "Legally," when you obviously don't know the laws you're professing to be referring to.

Eric

MisterMoon wrote:I don't think there should be a problem with anyone selling things second hand. If I buy a Honda and resell it was riced up mods, I wouldn't be sued by Honda.
However, If I made car parts from scratch and put a Honda logo on it I'd be in trouble. CH has done this. They sell things with GW IP all over it.
However, selling a conversion piece for a particular model, as long as it doesn't have GW IP on it should be fine. It's like if I sell a muffler for a Honda Civic, folks have to know what it can be used for.

(Emphasis mine)

Show me where.
Please, use your expert legal knowledge to demonstrate the GW IP which CH has illegally used.

Note: I'm not asking for your laymans opinion. Since you made such a definitive statement of what CH has done, I'm presuming that this means you have some legal training and knowledge in the area of IP law.
I understand that, as a lawyer, the opinion you'll be sharing is just that, and should not be taken as legal counsel for anyone involved.

My apologies if my predisposition towards presuming you're a lawyer is mistaken. Since you made your statement with such iron-clad phrasing, I took it to mean that you actually knew the laws you were talking about.

Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MisterMoon wrote:Here's my legal $.02
<SNIP>

Emphasis mine again.

Glad to know my presumption was corrent and that you're a lawyer.
Where did you go to school, and where do you practive IP law?

Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WillyBRags wrote:nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them

WillyBRags wrote:I will do that...in retro spec..looking back..whatever, I told him to order the upgrade kit 1 with that sweet looking skulls and whatnot on them....because I know they looked awesome, and when he got the order he said " no skulls kit...but you got something else" makes me think the order was probably messed up.....but like I said looking back...he probably did screw up the order, but I will email his name to you...and you can see the order for yourself, and see if it was just some random mistake on your shipping....or his fault for actually ordering what he knew I wouldn't like, either way...email incoming right now

Like I said I don't care is the order gets fixed or not, I'll use what was given to me...for something...like I said originally...I have orks...and strapping them onto a looted tank/rhino would be groovy, it's just the molding flaws and the broken pieces that bother me

Credibility gone.

I sent chapterhouse an email, describing where the flaws were...since I had no camera, and he noticed them too, and he said he will set things right, I for one am happy, it was great talking with him.

I wasn't lying about it, my friend basically lied to me about the order, I seen the order slip that chapterhouse had, and he did order the wrong one, chapterhouse even offered to send me the stuff I originally wanted, if I sent in what I have now, but I got what was ordered so I'll keep what I got. The flaws were real, though I forgot to mention one piece being cracked through the middle, but whatever.

I'm happy he took the time to look at the pieces from the same set, and found that they had the same flaws, so he can get them fixed.

How come the 30+ page thread in News & rumors which actually had opinions from actual lawyers (obviously not my lawyer, not legally binding etc. etc.) talking about related case law and such got locked, whilst thsi one which seems to hava much higher ratio of namecalling and hostility escaped such a fate?

Part of me would say that nobody is that interested in the actual merits of the case. People seem to want to see either the big bully or the parastitic leech lose.

A bigger part of me thinks that because that thread was actually informative, once it stopped including new info it became off topic. This thread is simply about conjecture and opinion.

Polonius wrote:Part of me would say that nobody is that interested in the actual merits of the case. People seem to want to see either the big bully or the parastitic leech lose.

A bigger part of me thinks that because that thread was actually informative, once it stopped including new info it became off topic. This thread is simply about conjecture and opinion.

As we all know thats the more powerful arguement.