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2011/08/04 14:35:40
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX AVAILABLE.
I'm definately going to do it as i also saw a proposed LR with Reaper Sponsons that i'd quite like to make as well.
It is going to take a while as i can't really afford the bits right now (damn looming redundancy). I have the Basic LR and will paint it in full but leave off the entire sponson assembly so the whole thing can be swtiched out.
So i will need sponson sets for lascannons, TL H.Bolters and Reapers.
Then something to replace the Hull H.Bolter with some sort of multi-barrelled affair.......i'd like to avoid the Assault Cannon if possible, and i think the Punisher or Thunderfire might be too big. i also think it shoudl be in a hull mounted turret like the H.Bolter on the Baneblade. That could look pretty cool and also avoid you having to model some kind of ammo feed for it.
EDIT: I'm now thinkng triple barrelled gun could look good And wuodl also look different enough from the assault cannon to set it apart. I just need to find soem small plastic tubes for barrels (i'm thinking ear buds might work if they're not too flimsy) and it should be pretty straight forward to do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/04 17:37:40
Ok, just a few more questions before I make an army list:
Daemon weapons: You roll a 1 on the D6 and it rebels, the character takes a wound, no saves allowed but he still gets to make his base attacks (with no bonuses conferred from the Daemon weapon) right?
If so, then a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne and Chaos Mutation Gift would still make 6 monstrous Creature Attacks (ignoring armor saves, etc.) and a Lord would just...punch them (still getting 6 attacks if the same marks and gifts) shouting something rude about Guilliman (or more likely Leman Russ...) or the Emperor or something right?
Also, about Lord Valinqurst(sp) do the Possessed become troops (like the Chosen with Infiltrate under the Alpha Legion Warband) or are they still elites?
Alpha Legion Warband: If I take Chosen (with Infiltrate) as troops, can I still take Elite Chosen with other veteran skills? (I got a Chosen squad that I use as Fallen right now-all plasma guns and bathrobes, I think Mr. Cypher would do well joining them and the unit having relentless)
Edit:
And can the Lord take say...2 power fists, OR a Powerfist and a Daemon Weapon? If he can take a DW and Powerfist, and if the Daemon Weapon rebels (and he can still make attacks) can he use his powerfist? I know that's probably out of left field, but after you answered my lightning claw question I looked at it again while I was at work last night and got to thinking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/04 17:22:35
Urdnot Wrex is not just pleased...he's Delighted!
Enclave Tau army 4000 points (with Shadowsun side lined :( ) Red Corsairs (CSM/SM)
2011/08/04 18:30:33
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX AVAILABLE.
Praxiss wrote:I'm definately going to do it as i also saw a proposed LR with Reaper Sponsons that i'd quite like to make as well.
It is going to take a while as i can't really afford the bits right now (damn looming redundancy). I have the Basic LR and will paint it in full but leave off the entire sponson assembly so the whole thing can be swtiched out.
So i will need sponson sets for lascannons, TL H.Bolters and Reapers.
Then something to replace the Hull H.Bolter with some sort of multi-barrelled affair.......i'd like to avoid the Assault Cannon if possible, and i think the Punisher or Thunderfire might be too big. i also think it shoudl be in a hull mounted turret like the H.Bolter on the Baneblade. That could look pretty cool and also avoid you having to model some kind of ammo feed for it.
EDIT: I'm now thinkng triple barrelled gun could look good And wuodl also look different enough from the assault cannon to set it apart. I just need to find soem small plastic tubes for barrels (i'm thinking ear buds might work if they're not too flimsy) and it should be pretty straight forward to do.
Well that's fair enough man, I certainly won't complain! I'd love to see it if you do make it though!
I guess for the Hull Heavy Bolter you could just use the twin reaper autocannons from the defiler and the sponsons on the other variant you're going to make. As I said, the weapon was inspired by the brass scorpion, whose main non-Forge World version looks like this:
Spoiler:
So it may be easier to use a Autocannons so you can switch between using them as a sponson weapon or hull weapon?
I think the triple-barrelled gun could work and would certainly look different. An example of the thunderfire cannon could be Land Raider achilles however, which it's mounted upon. It could provide some reference for the triple-barrelled gun too.
As I said, it sounds good to me man.
Trevak Dal wrote:Ok, just a few more questions before I make an army list:
Daemon weapons: You roll a 1 on the D6 and it rebels, the character takes a wound, no saves allowed but he still gets to make his base attacks (with no bonuses conferred from the Daemon weapon) right?
If so, then a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne and Chaos Mutation Gift would still make 6 monstrous Creature Attacks (ignoring armor saves, etc.) and a Lord would just...punch them (still getting 6 attacks if the same marks and gifts) shouting something rude about Guilliman (or more likely Leman Russ...) or the Emperor or something right?
More questions is absolutely fine, I'd be interested to see your army list when you've made it too if you wouldn't mind?
Regarding the Daemon Weapon, yes you're exactly right. 4 base attacks, 1 from MoK, 1 from Mutation means 6 attacks as you said, so as he gets no benefits from the Daemon Weapon but ignores armour saves as standard, as you said that'd be 6 monstrous creature attacks whilst the ordinary lord would get no benefits...
Also, about Lord Valinqurst(sp) do the Possessed become troops (like the Chosen with Infiltrate under the Alpha Legion Warband) or are they still elites?
They'd remain elites; Scoring =/= Troops. Pedro is the same for example.
Alpha Legion Warband: If I take Chosen (with Infiltrate) as troops, can I still take Elite Chosen with other veteran skills? (I got a Chosen squad that I use as Fallen right now-all plasma guns and bathrobes, I think Mr. Cypher would do well joining them and the unit having relentless)
Yep, that's exactly fine.
It's also worth pointing out that you don't HAVE to take them as troops if they have infiltrate...
Like the sound of the Fallen too; though it may be worth infiltrating so they can close their range? Btw, Cypher also confers Stealth to the unit...
And can the Lord take say...2 power fists, OR a Powerfist and a Daemon Weapon? If he can take a DW and Powerfist, and if the Daemon Weapon rebels (and he can still make attacks) can he use his powerfist? I know that's probably out of left field, but after you answered my lightning claw question I looked at it again while I was at work last night and got to thinking.
A lord can take 2 power fists, yep.
As for the Power Fist and Daemon Weapon, he can take both, but as to being able to use a Powerfist as a back-up I'm honestly not sure...
That's more of a general rules question, which isn't my area of expertise. I would've thought that's fine, but I'm honestly not sure. It may be worth making a thread in YMDC asking as it's something that applies to the current Daemon Weapon too, rather than my version and people would know an actual answer to an actual rulebook...
Sorry I can't be of more help regarding that specific question however...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/04 18:37:25
Subject: Re:Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX AVAILABLE.
I always imagined the Marauder Cannon as a really big grenade launcher, so if I made one it'd probably look like the TF or a Vulcan megabolter cut in half, somehow (so only one of the two turrets are used)... Would cost a fortune though, but would be quite fun to build.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/05 09:04:45
idolator wrote:That Nob is carrying a big honking gun that happens to have two barrels. You could call it a twin-linked shoota if you want, you could also call it Susan.
@ Just Dave. My only issue with having essentially AutoCannons hull mounted would be that they are so long. From a purely aesthetic point of view i think the hull mounted gun should be shorter. I can see the grenade launcher idea though, maybe have one large bore cannon similiar in look to a demolisher cannon, but smaller obviously. Maybe the try mounting the BA Furioso Dread Frag Cannon on some sort of turret?
Quick question about the Marauder Sponsons. Did you ever think of switching out the H.Bolters for Havoc Launchers? They have the same S and the Havoc loses Ap but gains range and a blast marker. Havocs just strike me as more chaos-y.
Just a thought.
Might have to make some Havoc launcher sponsons as well.....this is getting more expensive by the minute.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/05 17:52:21
Praxiss wrote:@ Just Dave. My only issue with having essentially AutoCannons hull mounted would be that they are so long. From a purely aesthetic point of view i think the hull mounted gun should be shorter. I can see the grenade launcher idea though, maybe have one large bore cannon similiar in look to a demolisher cannon, but smaller obviously. Maybe the try mounting the BA Furioso Dread Frag Cannon on some sort of turret?
Quick question about the Marauder Sponsons. Did you ever think of switching out the H.Bolters for Havoc Launchers? They have the same S and the Havoc loses Ap but gains range and a blast marker. Havocs just strike me as more chaos-y.
Just a thought.
Might have to make some Havoc launcher sponsons as well.....this is getting more expensive by the minute.
That's a really good point about the length of the Hull-guns actually, yeah. Although then again, personally I don't think a single large-bore cannon would work IMHO however as I feel they're more suited to blast, rather than high ROF weapons I'd say. Though something like the Frag Launcher could work well!
Regarding the Havocs, I did consider it when trying to decide on a custom Land Raider, but decided against it for 2 reasons: 1) I don't feel they'd look good on sponsons and 2) I feel they're more suited for a shooty/less aggressive Land Raider, rather than a line breaker like the Marauder. You are welcome to add them should you want to of course however; feel free.
It was never going to be cheap in the 1st place to be fair, your just making it worse for yourself!
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/05 21:42:05
Subject: Re:Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX AVAILABLE.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/06 16:36:39
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Also noted that champions cannot take TL bolters anymore. Is this supposed to be this way?
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/08/06 16:57:56
idolator wrote:That Nob is carrying a big honking gun that happens to have two barrels. You could call it a twin-linked shoota if you want, you could also call it Susan.
Saintspirit wrote:Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Well, it's supposed to be able to penetrate armour still, so yeah. Does it make sense under that intention?
Also noted that champions cannot take TL bolters anymore. Is this supposed to be this way?
Kind of... I honestly cannot recall if this was intentional or not when I first did it, considering it's a minor point, but realistically, who ever took TL Bolters unless it was on a Terminator?
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Very good catch sir! I'll edit that as soon as I can, although you can see the intention there!
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/07 16:29:04
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Saintspirit wrote:Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Well, it's supposed to be able to penetrate armour still, so yeah. Does it make sense under that intention?
Yes.
Just Dave wrote:
Also noted that champions cannot take TL bolters anymore. Is this supposed to be this way?
Kind of... I honestly cannot recall if this was intentional or not when I first did it, considering it's a minor point, but realistically, who ever took TL Bolters unless it was on a Terminator?
Good point. I know I don't.
Just Dave wrote:
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Very good catch sir! I'll edit that as soon as I can, although you can see the intention there!
Yes of course, but what would you say if there where several X:s in an official codex?
idolator wrote:That Nob is carrying a big honking gun that happens to have two barrels. You could call it a twin-linked shoota if you want, you could also call it Susan.
Saintspirit wrote:Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Well, it's supposed to be able to penetrate armour still, so yeah. Does it make sense under that intention?
Yes.
Great!
Just Dave wrote:
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Very good catch sir! I'll edit that as soon as I can, although you can see the intention there!
Yes of course, but what would you say if there where several X:s in an official codex?
Fair point man! Though, you might prefer it instead of some psychic powers! I've updated the original post with a PDF with an updated version with Visions of Chaos clarified!
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/08 21:27:34
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
I would just like to take this opportunity to thank everyone that's supported this Codex and my creating it.
I've been grumbling that it's got the worst views-to-comment ratio in proposed rules, but reading back through the thread you guys have been really supportive and provided some great feedback so thanks again Dakka.*
Hope everyone continues to enjoy it - though it's not quite finished yet - and finds it helpful.
I also hope I've been an accommodating creator/editor as well! I'm pleased with the final product if I do say so myself!
Thanks again,
Cheers, Dave.
*on that note, I'd also like to just clarify that I don't intend for my (latest) signature to look big-headed or pompous etc, but rather just try to encourage people to take a look, rather than blow my own trumpet...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/08 21:31:41
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/09 00:33:07
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Cheers guys, again I really appreciate it and I'm glad you all like it.
Thanks for the list too Praxiss, seems balanced to me which is the whole idea in asking for lists; reassures me it's not OP which is the main thing I intend to avoid. Cheers man.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/10 08:09:49
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Here's my feedback/suggestions. BTW if you want 'credentials' then i've played CSM's for 10 years and have known three of their codex's off the top of my head. I've run three warhammer clubs and i'm merely 22! So I hope what I throw at you now will be food for thought at least, added or built upon at best. This will be a very long post, I warn you... I don't really do brief but I hope to give you some full feedback and you wrote a codex so I would hope you can take my mountain of words!
Warband Icons.
Spoiler:
So... if I have two HQ's, one Nurgle and one Slaanesh I can take noise marines and plague marines? Now.. I think this is a little uncharacterful for the traitor legions and, if you'll allow me..falling into the trap of the loyalist 'Space Marines outright win' doctrine. You should, in my opinion... make the player designate the 'Chaos Lord', the leader, the army general. This is the head hancho. Now in general terms if he's culted (World Eaters for example) he get's no other marks. If you have a second HQ with a different Icon say Slan... then the army should be allowed 0-2, 0-3.. however many units with THAT Icon and it's rules. It doesn't obliterate your rules, merely limits them to be stricter to Chaos whilst keeping some options open... otherwise why not have all 7 troops choices... five KB squads and two plague marine squads backed up by three havoc death guard. It's only gonna happen in one situation as far as the fluff goes.. and that's if Abby is sitting at the front with Drach pointing forward. So you should make that a benefit of the Black Legion Icon or/and renegades that they don't impose the limitations if they're the general... the second Icon can be anything in all it's true glory.
OR have I got the wrong end of the stick and these Icons are not blanket rules... for example a World Eater Icon doesn't impose the Mark of Khorne? Even so.. the mark limitation is there... so I could have a World Eater Icon and not take the mark of khorne but still be subject to the Icons limitations that come from the implication I am taking the MoK (and rightly so! What self respecting chaos player would be WE's and not take it!). Are there no World Eater noise marines? Berserk Death Guard? There are sorcerous EC's and DG! You catch my drift...as crazy as it sounds, think about this angle. It's crazy, but this is CHAOS.... I whole heartedly think it's a fallacy but the general populance might like the idea of not type casting the legions to their traditional God's marks.
Either way I think they might need a little more clarification in regards to marks or I overlooked something, which is possible.
All CSM Legions from the HH should have the 'Preferred Enemy: Loyalist Marines' in my opinion, but i'll leave that to you. Too powerful?
Special Rules.
Spoiler:
Add the following to Veteran Skills:
Scouts
Move Through Cover
Skilled Riders
(Love the 'No Mercy' rule btw)
Special Characters:
Spoiler:
Abaddon - please. Dear GOD PLEASE. Get rid of the mastery issue with Drach'Nyen. This is Abaddon. Can I just remind you about him? This man singlehandedly united a horde of millions under HIS will to attack Cadia, several times. He's lead 13, yes, 13 crusades against the Imperium and the galaxy (Ghaz has lead two? Solar lead one? The EMPEROR lead two, one on earth, and the great crusade) This guy bested the C'tan, the Imperium and the Eldar to steal two of the black stone fortresses. He's got a ship that can blow planets up and has earned the favour of four of, if not THE most fickle and complicated beings in the entire 40k fluff individually and has turned down Daemonhood. Not to mention.... he's over 10,000 years old. I would hope, i'd pray for the sake of all things holy that I am not the only Chaos or warhammer player that see's this man having mastery issues over a Daemon that's allowed itself to be bound into a blade as being utterly ridiculous. Not to mention... I don't see Inquisitors in the GK codex having such an issue and their blades are in some cases equally as effective.
Finally he's got the heart of chaos. Whatever THAT is you might want to put something in there about that.... let's him re-roll his 4++ or gives him Psychic immunity or something akin.
If anyone thinks any of this makes Abaddon too powerful.. have a glance at the Swarm Lord or Draigo or the Saguanigor (however it's spelt) and tell me the biggest bad ass in all Chaos shouldn't actually be this bad ass for 280 smackers and apparently incapable of fighting any of the above without having to give his sword a 'time out' mid duel. It's embarrasing.
Ahriman - point reduction was greatly needed. He's still really expensive though. One strength 8+ hit and he's done with only a 50-50 chance. I'm talking any nob, warboss, power fist, las cannon, battle canon.. there are ton's of things. I'd be almost tempted to just make his save 3+ invul tbh... it very likely will be in the next codex anyway i've heard... there are so many of them floating about these days afterall... chaos should have at least one perhaps?
As for his psychic test. Don't make him auto pass. He knows his stuff does Ahriman but if Eldrad doesn't auto pass... I find it hard to accept even Ahriman would and he may be tzeentch but there are still three other gods worth of daemons that would have his head. I'd take a different angle on this.. make his psychic test immune to tampering. He always rolls 2D6, just the two, no matter what, and can only ever suffer a Perils on 2 or 12. No equipment (eldar stones) or special rules (shadow in the warp) can effect this in any way.
Raise his initiative to 6 or 7. Ahriman tricked the Eldar and has been hunting them for years. He's escaped powerful attacks, orchistrated genocieds, laid traps for GK's goddamit! He's faster and smarter than the average joe force commander!
Kharn - Awesome. Put his 'hit everything on 2+ because i'm a betraying nails man with a big axe' rule back though.
Typhus - is monstrous! I've got mixed feelings about him tbh. 5 insta death power weapon attacks on the charge is fairly horrible...imagine him vs nids? "Watch my Hive Tyrant go! Oh wait....you hit and wounded me with one attack. My Trygon will handle it... oh... no.. wait a tick... nope, you hit and wounded with a single attack again." I'd consider, but not necessarily reduce his attacks to 3 or his initiative to 4. Maybe even change the blades effects. Power Weapon that does D3 wounds every turn after at least a single wound is inflicted and is poisoned (2/3+).
Lucius - sexy as ever (the tongue does it for me, lmao).
Huron - I find the man a waste of time in any codex.
DP character - he's good man. Though i'd define his legion yourself tbh and give him wings OR do the unthinkable and let him join units of possesed.
For Org Chart:
Spoiler:
HQ's
Lords - seperate them. Give us a Dreadlord, Chaos Lord and a Captain. Dreadlords are like Abby. They're Uber 10k year old monsters. Give them like an extra pt of Initiative and let the person choose WS or BS for the other and throw on an extra 15/20pts. Chaos Lords as shown, equal of their loyalist counter parts and Captains a token 2 wound lesser HQ. We all loved the lieut from the awesome 3rd edit.
DP's - +25pts for a single point of toughness? REALLY? He's only like 30pts off the Avatar you know and in that 30pts you've got to cover initiative, WS, BS and Invul save differences to just make the stat line equal, we'll forget the wailing doom, immunity to flamers, plasma and melta and aura of inspiration. I reckon the extra 5pts (as you said in 'why') isn't necessary, 130pts is still an investment for the basic guy as he's not THAT durable even with T6 and 5++.
Sorcerer - 110pts for two wounds? Are you joking? He cost's that now and you get 3! You need to do something with that I reckon. Split sorcerers up like the loyalist's get the two types of Librarians for example.
Elites:
Posessed - they don't shoot guns anymore? They're not mindless/stupid you know, just posessed and crazed, pulling a trigger is suprisingly easy even if you're manic. XD
Chosen - let us take as many chosen champs as we want. They're chosen... not veterans. Theoretically a bucket load of CSM's are mere veterans. Cypher - ace.
Fabius - agree with his positioning but i'd give him a regen factor carbon copy of the Tyranids (roll end of every turn one D6 for missing wounds and get them back on roll of 6). Otherwise dandy.
Sorcerers Coven - give them BS 5, not WS. They're sorcerers, not maulers unless the WS advantage is a combat deficite mitigation but i'd have thought a power weapon wielding space marine that shoots magic would be enough for most.... Make them 0-1 unit or limited to one unit per HQ with the mark of Tzeentch. Why even limit them to TS's for that matter? Good fluff I suppose either way!
Troops:
Why does my unit of CSM's have to have 10men for a heavy weapon? I never understood this rule at all.....i'd give the abilty to upgrade a squad to Heresy Veterans at like +2pts a model in which case they get the veterans rule.
KB's - Yeap good. No Mercy?
No Plague Zombies or mutants?
Fast Attack
Bikes - hit and run over. Oh how I lol'd at the brilliance.
Raptors - used to be like vampiric nightmares almost. They struck fear and gave like -1LD. Potentially room for improvement, but really they're alright! Still just glorified assault marines though.
Chaos Spawn - needs to be more expensive. 4 wounds, invul save, potential assault range of 24"....cut that down (even with a 1/36 chance of it doing nothing, that's still only likely a single turn according to the odds). 15 of them at 450pts. That's 15 T5, 4W monsters with potentially 7 attacks each, S6 and an average assault arch of 18"...... Just make it fleet and rending or poisoned with D3+1 wounds for 30pts... that'd be an interesting unit, hell i'd use it for some fun!
Heavy Support:
Oblits: Think about toughness 5. They're not invincible even with 2+ armour and 5+ invul but with T4 they're really easy to kill i've found, especially with a wave serpents twin linked bright lance or hive guard. It's just 'boom' insta death every time and 5+ isn't good enough to stop it.
Defiler: The mark of khorne should cost something. Mark of Nurgle should probably cost a little more..
Daemons:
Lesser and Greater. I thought the idea was brilliant actually. Giving them the option to take marks which made them way beefy, but not as good as true forms was awesome. I'd give the greater daemons the option to take wings for like +20pts and give the khorne GD either the ability to nullify spells on a 4+ within 12" or summit OR a 3+ save.
Nurgle GD should have lower initiative probably and Tzeentch GD definitely shouldn't be lower then 5.
Weapons:
Spoiler:
Blastmaster? Why change it at all? I didn't see it in your 'why' section. The blast, strength 8, ap 3 single frequency is one of the current weapons in C:CSM's that is actually unique to chaos and pretty good.
Ether Cannon vs Lascannon? Why bother? You should do something with Ether Cannon like reduce it's strength (8, 7) but give it a +3D6 armour pen or able to ignore invul saves as well... I don't know.. be chaotically creative.
Daemon Weapons: You've lessened the negatives so to speak but still why would I bother taking one? High point cost and a likeliness i'm going to do at least one wound to myself a battle. Meh. The very original Daemon weapons where you rolled a one to wound or hit and it ended up being resolved against you (with the LD) seemed more like playable rules. You could save the hit and there were still mastery rules. Personally i'd give the DW's a complete overhaul. Logically it should be wound-LD related (if it kills anything roll LD test with negative modifier equal to the number of casualties, take difference in wounds, no armour saves...that's still horrible) but I don't know... you're pretty creative so channel some of that into DW's.
Marks:
Tzeentch mark has two properties. Why not everyone else?
Give Khorne +1 attack and +1 WS, strength maybe... or even furious charge.
Nurgle.. feel no pain and +1T, Slan...erm.. acute senses/+1attack and +1initiative?
- 10,000 pts CSM
2011/08/10 21:05:46
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Praxiss wrote:I'm thinking the FW Contemptor Dread was designed after reading your rules for the Magnate. /cackle.
Those were my thoughts too man!
Semper wrote:I enjoyed this fan dex immensely.
Here's my feedback/suggestions. BTW if you want 'credentials' then i've played CSM's for 10 years and have known three of their codex's off the top of my head. I've run three warhammer clubs and i'm merely 22! So I hope what I throw at you now will be food for thought at least, added or built upon at best. This will be a very long post, I warn you... I don't really do brief but I hope to give you some full feedback and you wrote a codex so I would hope you can take my mountain of words!
Thanks man, appreciate the kind words and feedback. Not to worry though; I'm rarely brief in what I type too, nor do I have any noteworthy credentials; but I choose to let my work speak for itself!
Regarding your - again, appreciated - feedback, I'll try to respond to it as best I can, but I admit, I don't completely agree with some of it as hopefully you'll understand.
Warband Icons.
Spoiler:
So... if I have two HQ's, one Nurgle and one Slaanesh I can take noise marines and plague marines? Now.. I think this is a little uncharacterful for the traitor legions and, if you'll allow me..falling into the trap of the loyalist 'Space Marines outright win' doctrine. You should, in my opinion... make the player designate the 'Chaos Lord', the leader, the army general. This is the head hancho. Now in general terms if he's culted (World Eaters for example) he get's no other marks. If you have a second HQ with a different Icon say Slan... then the army should be allowed 0-2, 0-3.. however many units with THAT Icon and it's rules. It doesn't obliterate your rules, merely limits them to be stricter to Chaos whilst keeping some options open... otherwise why not have all 7 troops choices... five KB squads and two plague marine squads backed up by three havoc death guard. It's only gonna happen in one situation as far as the fluff goes.. and that's if Abby is sitting at the front with Drach pointing forward. So you should make that a benefit of the Black Legion Icon or/and renegades that they don't impose the limitations if they're the general... the second Icon can be anything in all it's true glory.
My intentions here are to not restrict the player but allow them to have the Chaos army they want. Within reason.
I was hoping to refrain from limiting the player throughout and not forcing a theme upon them (even if they choose a specific warband Icon) as otherwise it's not so much their Chaos army or their World Eaters warband, but simply A Chaos army or A World Eaters warband.
Chaos may hate each other etc, but they'd ally to defeat a common enemy. Even so, with having to buy a HQ each etc. it's unlikely they will be able to have 2 complete armies working alongside each other, but rather one dominant force with allies from another. Chaos Space Marines are warbands and focus on what they gain, even if that's from working together.
Ultimately however, it's unlikely the player would have 2 full armies working together, let alone 2 full, fluff contradicting armies working together and my overall intention isn't to restrict the player but let them make the force that they'd like. Within reason...
OR have I got the wrong end of the stick and these Icons are not blanket rules... for example a World Eater Icon doesn't impose the Mark of Khorne? Even so.. the mark limitation is there... so I could have a World Eater Icon and not take the mark of khorne but still be subject to the Icons limitations that come from the implication I am taking the MoK (and rightly so! What self respecting chaos player would be WE's and not take it!). Are there no World Eater noise marines? Berserk Death Guard? There are sorcerous EC's and DG! You catch my drift...as crazy as it sounds, think about this angle. It's crazy, but this is CHAOS.... I whole heartedly think it's a fallacy but the general populance might like the idea of not type casting the legions to their traditional God's marks.
No, you don't HAVE to take anything other than the warband icon itself. Therefore World Eaters don't have to take MoK, but it's certainly beneficial to do so. So no, I'm not typecasting Legions to their typical god marks etc, but if you can find me a World Eaters warband dedicated to Nurgle, I'll give you a cookie. Again, I'm trying to prevent restrictions and allow options. Within reason...
All CSM Legions from the HH should have the 'Preferred Enemy: Loyalist Marines' in my opinion, but i'll leave that to you. Too powerful?
Too powerful IMHO.
It's also unfair on the Loyalists I'd say; they'd still hold a grudge from the HH (e.g. "You killed my primarch!") and I'd rather avoid giving such overwhelming odds against a single army by having a one-way benefit, let alone such a powerful one.
Special Rules.
Spoiler:
Add the following to Veteran Skills:
Scouts
Move Through Cover
Skilled Riders
(Love the 'No Mercy' rule btw)
I'm unsure who Skilled Riders would benfit or who would take Move Through Cover over some of the other special rules. Scouts sounds reasonable but it outclassed by infiltrate IMHO.
Special Characters:
Spoiler:
Abaddon - please. Dear GOD PLEASE. Get rid of the mastery issue with Drach'Nyen. This is Abaddon. Can I just remind you about him? This man singlehandedly united a horde of millions under HIS will to attack Cadia, several times. He's lead 13, yes, 13 crusades against the Imperium and the galaxy (Ghaz has lead two? Solar lead one? The EMPEROR lead two, one on earth, and the great crusade) This guy bested the C'tan, the Imperium and the Eldar to steal two of the black stone fortresses. He's got a ship that can blow planets up and has earned the favour of four of, if not THE most fickle and complicated beings in the entire 40k fluff individually and has turned down Daemonhood. Not to mention.... he's over 10,000 years old. I would hope, i'd pray for the sake of all things holy that I am not the only Chaos or warhammer player that see's this man having mastery issues over a Daemon that's allowed itself to be bound into a blade as being utterly ridiculous. Not to mention... I don't see Inquisitors in the GK codex having such an issue and their blades are in some cases equally as effective.
Finally he's got the heart of chaos. Whatever THAT is you might want to put something in there about that.... let's him re-roll his 4++ or gives him Psychic immunity or something akin.
If anyone thinks any of this makes Abaddon too powerful.. have a glance at the Swarm Lord or Draigo or the Saguanigor (however it's spelt) and tell me the biggest bad ass in all Chaos shouldn't actually be this bad ass for 280 smackers and apparently incapable of fighting any of the above without having to give his sword a 'time out' mid duel. It's embarrasing.
I'm aware of Abaddon's accomplished thanks...
Abaddon may well be that powerful but he still cannot control a Daemon; who can? Daemons are by their nature uncontrollable and rebellious. As I said earlier, "I remember a piece of fluff before where Abaddon basically duelled Eldrad Ulthran; he got Eldrad to the floor and was going to finish him off, but Eldrad managed to put the edge of his staff against his neck. The Daemon Sword was trying to get Eldrad and pulled Abaddon towards him; ultimately whilst bringing itself (and therefore Abaddon) closer to Eldrad, it was also pulling Abaddon onto Eldrads spear/staff. In the end, the Chaos Gods effectively plucked abaddon out of there as the sword would have ended up killing Abaddon. IIRC this was in a White Dwarf article before which would examine 'heroes and villains'."
This has always stuck in my mind and the effects of rebellion have been reduced for Abaddon; it can still rebel but it doesn't hurt him and he still has a Lightning claw to fall back on and at 5+D6 Str8 attacks, he gets a lot from the sword. The Swarmlord suffers from being a monstrous creature whilst the Sanguinor is unable to join squads. I might put some other buff in there but even in the current official Codex he's seen as a real bad-ass...
Ahriman - point reduction was greatly needed. He's still really expensive though. One strength 8+ hit and he's done with only a 50-50 chance. I'm talking any nob, warboss, power fist, las cannon, battle canon.. there are ton's of things. I'd be almost tempted to just make his save 3+ invul tbh... it very likely will be in the next codex anyway i've heard... there are so many of them floating about these days afterall... chaos should have at least one perhaps?
As for his psychic test. Don't make him auto pass. He knows his stuff does Ahriman but if Eldrad doesn't auto pass... I find it hard to accept even Ahriman would and he may be tzeentch but there are still three other gods worth of daemons that would have his head. I'd take a different angle on this.. make his psychic test immune to tampering. He always rolls 2D6, just the two, no matter what, and can only ever suffer a Perils on 2 or 12. No equipment (eldar stones) or special rules (shadow in the warp) can effect this in any way.
Raise his initiative to 6 or 7. Ahriman tricked the Eldar and has been hunting them for years. He's escaped powerful attacks, orchistrated genocieds, laid traps for GK's goddamit! He's faster and smarter than the average joe force commander!
Ahriman still has a 4++ to fall back upon however and this relies on the opponent getting past his retinue and managing to hit him in close combat with something that powerful. Kharn is still seen as a good character despite having a vulnerability to similar weapons, but Ahriman has a 4++ too, as well as typically not being a close combat character.
As for expensive; I tried to compare him to Njal, whose seen as very good character at a similar level. Njal has a 2+ save, WTN, Psychic hood (but better), Lord of Tempests and a Chooser of the Slain. Whereas Ahriman has an extra wound, can cast an extra power and automatically casts. On top of this, he has the benefits of a Sorcerers Tome also. If anything, Ahriman should cost more. He could potentially put out 2 Doom Bolts and Chaos Theory in one turn, re-rolling to hit rolls!
I will however think about what you said regarding not auto-passing although he is favoured by a Sorcerer god and isn't exactly lacking in psychic ability IMHO.
Kharn - Awesome. Put his 'hit everything on 2+ because i'm a betraying nails man with a big axe' rule back though.
Glad you like him; however I don't intend to add the 2+ hitting; he's still WS7 and packs a shed load of attacks. For a small increase in cost he's gained Eternal Warrior and potentially a shed-load of attacks. I'd imagine with all those extra attacks he'd kill more than he would with the 2+ hitting whilst he wouldn't hit a WS10 God of War (Avatar) on a 2+...
Typhus - is monstrous! I've got mixed feelings about him tbh. 5 insta death power weapon attacks on the charge is fairly horrible...imagine him vs nids? "Watch my Hive Tyrant go! Oh wait....you hit and wounded me with one attack. My Trygon will handle it... oh... no.. wait a tick... nope, you hit and wounded with a single attack again." I'd consider, but not necessarily reduce his attacks to 3 or his initiative to 4. Maybe even change the blades effects. Power Weapon that does D3 wounds every turn after at least a single wound is inflicted and is poisoned (2/3+).
Those are fair points. I've changed him to Initiative 4 and the Weapon is now a force weapon rather than inflicts auto-instant-death...
For Org Chart:
Spoiler:
HQ's
Lords - seperate them. Give us a Dreadlord, Chaos Lord and a Captain. Dreadlords are like Abby. They're Uber 10k year old monsters. Give them like an extra pt of Initiative and let the person choose WS or BS for the other and throw on an extra 15/20pts. Chaos Lords as shown, equal of their loyalist counter parts and Captains a token 2 wound lesser HQ. We all loved the lieut from the awesome 3rd edit.
I originally had a Captain option within the Codex, however - like the WGBL - people rarely took him and I can understand why. Ultimately, I dropped him and kept it as just the lord; they are still bad-ass machines, but they can also be cheap if the player chooses them to be. They actually have marginally better stats than a Chapter Master too... Think about it like this; I've gone for the average/median of the 3 Lords you suggested.
DP's - +25pts for a single point of toughness? REALLY? He's only like 30pts off the Avatar you know and in that 30pts you've got to cover initiative, WS, BS and Invul save differences to just make the stat line equal, we'll forget the wailing doom, immunity to flamers, plasma and melta and aura of inspiration. I reckon the extra 5pts (as you said in 'why') isn't necessary, 130pts is still an investment for the basic guy as he's not THAT durable even with T6 and 5++.
I've debated Daemon Prices before and honestly, I'm happy with them as they are. Would you still take them? (I would)
They are effectively immune to small arms for all intents and purposes; they can easily hide behind other models, they can have impressive manoeuvrability and even more impressive hitting power as well as increased durability. I've stated my intentions for them within the 'why' section and personally I feel I've fulfilled that.
Sorcerer - 110pts for two wounds? Are you joking? He cost's that now and you get 3! You need to do something with that I reckon. Split sorcerers up like the loyalist's get the two types of Librarians for example.
No, it's 110pts for two wounds, but two psychic powers also. The current librarian has to pay for his. This guy is on par to Rune Priests and existing Librarians, yet he has a BS5 and In5. Rune Priests and Librarians are the standard choices; the extra 10pts reflects the stats and helps add another level of not must-have to him.
Elites:
Posessed - they don't shoot guns anymore? They're not mindless/stupid you know, just posessed and crazed, pulling a trigger is suprisingly easy even if you're manic. XD
Do they shoot guns at the moment? Do they really need to be able to shoot guns? Do they wield guns on their models? Do they have guns specially designed to have triggers that can be pulled by a claw or a stump, rather than a hand?
Chosen - let us take as many chosen champs as we want. They're chosen... not veterans. Theoretically a bucket load of CSM's are mere veterans.
They're better than the standard veteran. Furthermore, I imagine few people would spend the extra points for them to be Champions considering they're still only as tough as your average MeQ. Personally, I feel they have plenty of options as it is and are already superior abilties to your average veteran...
Cypher - ace.
Fabius - agree with his positioning but i'd give him a regen factor carbon copy of the Tyranids (roll end of every turn one D6 for missing wounds and get them back on roll of 6). Otherwise dandy.
Cheers.
Sorcerers Coven - give them BS 5, not WS. They're sorcerers, not maulers unless the WS advantage is a combat deficite mitigation but i'd have thought a power weapon wielding space marine that shoots magic would be enough for most.... Make them 0-1 unit or limited to one unit per HQ with the mark of Tzeentch. Why even limit them to TS's for that matter? Good fluff I suppose either way!
They originally were BS5, but combined with their shooting abilities that was deemed to be too much, and understandably so.
Troops:
Why does my unit of CSM's have to have 10men for a heavy weapon? I never understood this rule at all.....i'd give the abilty to upgrade a squad to Heresy Veterans at like +2pts a model in which case they get the veterans rule.
Game balance basically.
I have opted to keep them representative of your average traitor astartes who even after all these years typically have similar abilities to their loyalist brethren. Furthermore this keeps the difference between them and the Chosen and Cult units whilst very viable choices.
KB's - Yeap good. No Mercy?
No Plague Zombies or mutants?
Naw, I feel 'Zerkers and Rubric Marines are close to being overpowered as it is, whilst No Mercy remains a Slaanesh-only thing...
Fast Attack
Bikes - hit and run over. Oh how I lol'd at the brilliance.
I must admit, that was one of my highlights when I made this.
Raptors - used to be like vampiric nightmares almost. They struck fear and gave like -1LD. Potentially room for improvement, but really they're alright! Still just glorified assault marines though.
I can understand what you're saying, but I didn't want to add too many unit-specific rules whilst they are still a viable choice and better than your average assault marine; being able to take marks and power weapons should mean they are capable of inflicting some real CC hurt IMHO.
I'll definitely consider Daemonic Vision as an option however.
Chaos Spawn - needs to be more expensive. 4 wounds, invul save, potential assault range of 24"....cut that down (even with a 1/36 chance of it doing nothing, that's still only likely a single turn according to the odds). 15 of them at 450pts. That's 15 T5, 4W monsters with potentially 7 attacks each, S6 and an average assault arch of 18"...... Just make it fleet and rending or poisoned with D3+1 wounds for 30pts... that'd be an interesting unit, hell i'd use it for some fun!
I'd imagine fleet & rending for 30pts is even better than they are at the moment.
You raise a good point about their price however, I'll see if I can think of a way to change that. It's worth bearing in mind people have criticised them when they weren't fleet or not beasts etc. so it's a difficult balancing act for me...
Heavy Support:
Oblits: Think about toughness 5. They're not invincible even with 2+ armour and 5+ invul but with T4 they're really easy to kill i've found, especially with a wave serpents twin linked bright lance or hive guard. It's just 'boom' insta death every time and 5+ isn't good enough to stop it.
I can understand what you're saying, but the existing Obliterator unit is very well respected (and then some), whilst their range and firepower can keep them out of harms way typically, as well as having 2 wounds to fall back upon. I've consider T4(5) before but ultimately I decided they are fine as they are IMHO.
Defiler: The mark of khorne should cost something. Mark of Nurgle should probably cost a little more..
The Mark of Khorne sacrifices effectively all ranged attacks; therefore making it a very large model that has to run up the board; no more tough than a standard dreadnought. They would've been very susceptible to immobilised results also; hence the special rule. I can understand what you're saying, but I would personally have the ranged ability over extra CC ability almost any day for a Defiler...
Regarding the Nurgle, the Vomit Cannon is more specialised than the battlecannon, so the only thing you're effectively benefitting from is the FA13, which I've costed at around 15pts IMHO.
Daemons:
Lesser and Greater. I thought the idea was brilliant actually. Giving them the option to take marks which made them way beefy, but not as good as true forms was awesome. I'd give the greater daemons the option to take wings for like +20pts and give the khorne GD either the ability to nullify spells on a 4+ within 12" or summit OR a 3+ save.
Nurgle GD should have lower initiative probably and Tzeentch GD definitely shouldn't be lower then 5.
thanks man, I really appreciate that.
I've explained the lack of wings in the 'why' section which is ultimately for game balance reasons. The ability to nullify spells for the MoK is a good idea however, I've been looking to improve him and that could be it!
I'll definitely consider the Initiative on the MoN, but for Tzeentch it's simply for game balance, but I may raise it back to 5.
Weapons:
Blastmaster? Why change it at all? I didn't see it in your 'why' section. The blast, strength 8, ap 3 single frequency is one of the current weapons in C:CSM's that is actually unique to chaos and pretty good.
The single frequency option is currently the only option people use in it however and IMHO this isn't worth 40pts. It should be chaotic now, but is viable in both variants hopefully as well as being more of a dedicated anti-infantry weapon. I wouldn't think it's not unique to Chaos now...
Ether Cannon vs Lascannon? Why bother? You should do something with Ether Cannon like reduce it's strength (8, 7) but give it a +3D6 armour pen or able to ignore invul saves as well... I don't know.. be chaotically creative.
It simply improves its anti-tank ability quite neatly; it's not an amazing change I admit; but with BS4 and a battlecannon that's some serious firepower IMHO; it even downed a monolith in a bat-rep!
Daemon Weapons: You've lessened the negatives so to speak but still why would I bother taking one? High point cost and a likeliness i'm going to do at least one wound to myself a battle. Meh. The very original Daemon weapons where you rolled a one to wound or hit and it ended up being resolved against you (with the LD) seemed more like playable rules. You could save the hit and there were still mastery rules. Personally i'd give the DW's a complete overhaul. Logically it should be wound-LD related (if it kills anything roll LD test with negative modifier equal to the number of casualties, take difference in wounds, no armour saves...that's still horrible) but I don't know... you're pretty creative so channel some of that into DW's.
I've heard someone else state Daemon Weapons (mine or otherwise) to be horrible, but personally I don't see it.
For 40pts you get Power Weapon (15pts), +2 Strength or better (15+pts) and D6 attacks (15+pts), but there is a 1-in-6 chance to hurt yourself. I'm not so sure what's bad about them? I'd certainly still take them and they're better than their current versions whilst being no more expensive...
Marks:
Tzeentch mark has two properties. Why not everyone else?
Give Khorne +1 attack and +1 WS, strength maybe... or even furious charge.
Nurgle.. feel no pain and +1T, Slan...erm.. acute senses/+1attack and +1initiative?
I wouldn't really say the MoT has 2 properties; it's just an invulnerable save bonus either way...
Regarding improved marks, I feel this threatens the distinctions of the cult units and causes the Mark price to sky rocket. I also believe this increases complication and makes no mark or MoCU less viable IMHO.
As ever, all feedback (constructive) is appreciated. Cheers.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/10 23:35:09
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Saguanigor. I laughed heartily.
I also wonder about the ether cannon. It seems to me to be just a different word for a lascannon, and I feel like giving a defiler that now has BS4 and cant be stunned or shaken an Ether cannon or two is a little OP. I didnt mind it in that game (where it took 3 turns to take out said monolith, because my friend cant hit worth a damn) but I can see where it would get annoying really fast to have a BETTER lascannon, already the second best armor popper from range. (second to lance weapons, ofc)
Ave Dominus Nox.
Night Lords, Host of the Tumultuous Storm.
2011/08/11 20:27:33
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
ZephyrRey wrote:Saguanigor. I laughed heartily.
I also wonder about the ether cannon. It seems to me to be just a different word for a lascannon, and I feel like giving a defiler that now has BS4 and cant be stunned or shaken an Ether cannon or two is a little OP. I didnt mind it in that game (where it took 3 turns to take out said monolith, because my friend cant hit worth a damn) but I can see where it would get annoying really fast to have a BETTER lascannon, already the second best armor popper from range. (second to lance weapons, ofc)
I'm not entirely sure what the problem with the ether cannon is here, if someone could really point it out for me!
- It's too similar to a Lascannon?
- It's too powerful?
Or both?
Regarding the Deciever potentially being OP, I can understand that worry and I too have shared it, but it is also on a 180pts, AV12, LARGE platform which makes it a very tasty - and fairly vulnerable - target too.
The ether cannon was intended to be moderately more powerful than a lascannon and to cement the Deciever as a shooty anti-tank Defiler, which IMHO it has. I always welcome feedback as always however and I would like to know precisely what the criticism is?
------
In other news, I think I've decided on what 'dex I'll do next. More on this another time...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/12 20:35:15
Subject: Re:Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/08/12 20:41:35
Subject: Re:Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
Hello Just Dave, I've been playing your codex for a few games now when a question came up regarding terminator armor. Your codex does not list terminator armor as an armory item so two things came up: 1) This allows people to say the upgrade to 'terminator armor' (in the chaos lords entry for example) does not improve their armor save, and that 2) without an entry listing rules for terminator armor are your codex's terminators allowed to sweeping advance?
Number 1 is of course a just silly raw lawyer'ing, but I had hoped you could respond back about #2 so I can play it correctly in upcoming games. Thanks a bunch for the huge amount of work you've put into this, it really shows! I'm having a blast using your codex and use it every game I can now instead of the official csm dex.
Also the last note, the dreadnaught magnate's unyielding rule seems really strong in low point games (sub 1k) where most armies lack the weapon saturation to put up multiple glances/pens each turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/12 23:22:04
2011/08/12 23:58:57
Subject: Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - INCLUDING FULL PDF CODEX
(Iron Warriors) 
Enclave Tau army 4000 points (with Shadowsun side lined :( ) Red Corsairs (CSM/SM)
It was never going to be cheap in the 1st place to be fair, your just making it worse for yourself! 
Orks 2500
Seahawks Human Blood Bowl Team
Though i'd define his legion yourself 
- 10,000 pts CSM 
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
