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Cheers Viper, much appreciated man. How have you found your games then?
Can't believe I forgot Power and Terminator Armour; I'm sure I'd included them. Nonetheless, as you expect, yeah they do all the usual: 3+ for the former & 2+5++, relentless, deepstrike but no sweeping advance for Terminator Armour.
I wish it was as Alf' said and intentional, but admittedly, it wasn't.
I may not include for that reason, however, but I may also not be able to fit it in the existing space; I'll try though!

Thanks a lot for the kind words too Viper. Much appreciated.

-----

Bear in mind that my next Codex (below) is going to take me a while to do; I haven't started writing it. Yet.

Just Dave wrote:I'm just going to leave this here...

Question: if you now writes an Eldar fandex, will you study what some have worked with on this topic (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377992.page) and its two predecessor topics?

Saintspirit wrote:Question: if you now writes an Eldar fandex, will you study what some have worked with on this topic (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377992.page) and its two predecessor topics?

Wooly asked me a similar question before IIRC. Whilst I check up on it every now and then to see what people feel need changing and some peoples ideas, I honestly don't agree with much of what is said in that thread. I appreciate the work gone into it and I respect all yours choices to do it, but I simply don't believe it's something I agree with for the most-part, Vypers with wounds, Dedicated Falcons, Str5 Avenger Catapults etc. are examples. That and how longs it's taking!
As I said, I don't mean to offend and it's not necessarily wrong, but it's simply not something I could work with, although as I said, I check on it every now and then...

Hello Dave,

The Chaos codex you've written is just the antidote required for an army list in a bit of a sorry state; excellently written too.

Thanks for taking the time and the effort to produce it.

Its a great effort, very professional.

One criticism though, Ive not read the official rules, are the points and stats for SCs roughly the same?

They seem undercosted to me. I was just comparing the stats for them with the ones from Codex SM and they seem OP.

Lucius for example is what? 180 points? Him and Kharn are both far cheaper than the SCs in C:SM and it sounds like they would rape their faces without taking a wound!

mattyrm wrote:
Lucius for example is what? 180 points? Him and Kharn are both far cheaper than the SCs in C:SM and it sounds like they would rape their faces without taking a wound!

You cannot just compare their "raw" martial prowess. The SM special characters may be less powerful single-handedly, but it's the abilities they grant to their units that make them deadly.

Sure, Khârn will butcher Vulkan He'stan almost every single time, but while the Khornate warrior will be busy slaughtering his foe, the rest of his army will be shred to pieces by master-crafted Thunder Hammers, and twin-linked Meltaguns & Multimeltas!!

Yggdrasil wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Lucius for example is what? 180 points? Him and Kharn are both far cheaper than the SCs in C:SM and it sounds like they would rape their faces without taking a wound!

You cannot just compare their "raw" martial prowess. The SM special characters may be less powerful single-handedly, but it's the abilities they grant to their units that make them deadly.

Sure, Khârn will butcher Vulkan He'stan almost every single time, but while the Khornate warrior will be busy slaughtering his foe, the rest of his army will be shred to pieces by master-crafted Thunder Hammers, and twin-linked Meltaguns & Multimeltas!!

^ Have to agree with this. For what they bring to the table, they are cost most appropriately.

Thanks for the compliments guys, really appreciated, particularly coming from you! Seriously thanks - that includes you and your feedback Matty!

As Yggs and jp said, unlike Space Marine characters, few Chaos characters are force multipliers - which hopefully represents their selfish and egotistical nature - so add little benefit to the rest of the army. It's worth pointing out that some of these SM characters are tough Cookies too, such as Lysander and Vulkan both being force multipliers and possessing a 3++ and Str6 power weapon at worst. So many Chaos characters don't have the same durability that their loyalist counterparts may...

Thanks again for the feedback, it's all welcome. Work on the next 'dex has well and truly started too.

Just Dave wrote:Thanks for the compliments guys, really appreciated, particularly coming from you! Seriously thanks - that includes you and your feedback Matty!

As Yggs and jp said, unlike Space Marine characters, few Chaos characters are force multipliers - which hopefully represents their selfish and egotistical nature - so add little benefit to the rest of the army. It's worth pointing out that some of these SM characters are tough Cookies too, such as Lysander and Vulkan both being force multipliers and possessing a 3++ and Str6 power weapon at worst. So many Chaos characters don't have the same durability that their loyalist counterparts may...

Thanks again for the feedback, it's all welcome. Work on the next 'dex has well and truly started too.

Oh yeah, I didnt think about that. As I said I dont play chaos..

The force multipliers of the SCs in the dex do indeed make sense, and the traitors are better individually but do less for the army..

It all makes sense!

mattyrm wrote: It all makes sense!

Whoa! Lets not go too far!

The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.

Changes include:
- Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU
- Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.

Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.

As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!

Just Dave wrote: The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.

Changes include:
- Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU
- Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.

Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.

As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!

Hey, glad to see that... Still sad about the "favoured number" heretics though, but this is more than expected lol!!

Thanks again, and good luck on that new codex!

Yggdrasil wrote:

Just Dave wrote: The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.

Changes include:
- Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU
- Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.

Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.

As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!

Hey, glad to see that... Still sad about the "favoured number" heretics though, but this is more than expected lol!!

Thanks again, and good luck on that new codex!

You got pretty much every other request added; make do with what you get man!

Just Dave wrote:

Yggdrasil wrote:

Just Dave wrote: The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.

Changes include:
- Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU
- Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.

Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.

As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!

Hey, glad to see that... Still sad about the "favoured number" heretics though, but this is more than expected lol!!

Thanks again, and good luck on that new codex!

You got pretty much every other request added; make do with what you get man!

Hey, but you didn't ask for priorities lol (not that I gave you some, ok)!!!

I'd gladly swap the Chaos Spawn squad size & MoK GD buff for a 7-strong Nurgle Heretics squads!

Yggsie, and there I was saying you were being impartial between the gods!


Does anyone have any stand-out 'issues' with this version, i.e. that might prevent it being the 'final' version?

An article has been created for this Codex, as it is inevitably (and already) going to tumble down the Proposed Rules forum into obscurity, so it can always be found from the Articles section.

A thing i've noticed about Kharn.

So he gain the same rule as one of the SW sagas,wich is nice,but on the counter part he lost his ability to Hit on a 2+,BUT he still retain his Betrayer rule...

I dunno,...seems weird to me,the Betrayer rule was there as a bad excuse to justify the fact that he Hit on 2+,so if he Loose his 2+ to Hit,why still letting him with the Betrayer Rule?

Personnaly i din't had any problems with this rule,the only thing that bothered me is that he lost his Eternal Warrior status,because you see it countless times in the fluff, where he dies to only rise again only angryer then before.

Also where are the Khorne's Axes?,and Collars?

Besides that love how you threated this.

Specially the Lesser Deamons!,its even impossible to understand why Gavin & Allesio din't do something similar from the start,it was only a few lines to add to the Lesserr deamons Page...

Slayer le boucher wrote:A thing i've noticed about Kharn.

So he gain the same rule as one of the SW sagas,wich is nice,but on the counter part he lost his ability to Hit on a 2+,BUT he still retain his Betrayer rule...

I dunno,...seems weird to me,the Betrayer rule was there as a bad excuse to justify the fact that he Hit on 2+,so if he Loose his 2+ to Hit,why still letting him with the Betrayer Rule?

Personnaly i din't had any problems with this rule,the only thing that bothered me is that he lost his Eternal Warrior status,because you see it countless times in the fluff, where he dies to only rise again only angryer then before.

Also where are the Khorne's Axes?,and Collars?

Besides that love how you threated this.

Specially the Lesser Deamons!,its even impossible to understand why Gavin & Allesio din't do something similar from the start,it was only a few lines to add to the Lesserr deamons Page...

Hey man, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I really appreciate the kind words. Cheers!

Personally, i felt Saga of the Warrior Born suits him more; his martial skill is represented by the WS7 whilst Saga can show his raw killing power and bloodlust, as well as the power of Khorne, I felt it's much more characterful whilst I also felt he shouldn't be hitting Avatars on a 2+.

Doing basic/rough maths, his current rules, on the charge v.s Space Marines would:
7 attacks, 5.833' hit, 4.8611' wounds. Therefore, 4.9 (rounding up) Space Marines die.


Doing basic/rough maths, my rules for Kharne, on the charge v.s. Space Marines would:
7 attacks, 4.66' hit, 3.88' wound, with re-rolling one's, 4.537 wound. Therefore, rounding down, 4.5 Space Marines die.

This change in rules means that the hitting power you lose (in this case) is less than 0.4 Space Marines, instead of which you gain eternal warrior, re-rolling 1's and Saga of the Warrior born.
For reference, in the following phase, with his additional attacks, my Kharn would then kill approximately 7.4 Space Marines...

Hopefully you'll agree, it's not a major loss whilst he gains a lot.

Regarding Betrayer, again it suits him and it's existing in his profile before the new Codex IIRC. I think it's a reasonable way to represent his betraying nature, whilst (with eternal warrior) you can afford to send him off on his own/without a squad more than you could before.

Regarding Khorne specific options (and other god specific options that may be lacking), I felt there is plenty that can be used to design a character/model in whichever way you want and to a certain theme, e.g. hitty/Khorne. There are also a LOT more options here than most individual characters, such as Space Marine Captains. That's one of the things I aimed to achieve with this Codex, to bridge the gap between the 3.5 Codex (which IMHO had too many options/complexity) and the 4th edition Codex (which was too simplified IMHO).

Thanks again for the feedback Slayer, much appreciated, hopefully you can understand my perspective now.

Ok so I'm CSM and I want to use a khorne chaos lord with juggy and bloodfeeder, according to what I've read in the codex this would give him max 17 attacks. WICKED! However my friend, who wants to rain on my parade, pointed out that no characteristic may be above 10. I wanna know what the ruling is for this because from my experience if a characteristic cannot be over 10 it would have said A4+2d6 to a max of ten. So is the chaos lord combo as cool as I think it is or what?

The rules are that a characteristic cannot be above 10 as standard, but attacks for example can be increased above 10 by wargear, so yes, he could take full advantage of those 12 extra attacks.

Hopefully that makes sense? Cheers!

Just Dave wrote:The rules are that a characteristic cannot be above 10 as standard, but attacks for example can be increased above 10 by wargear, so yes, he could take full advantage of those 12 extra attacks.

Hopefully that makes sense? Cheers!

Thanks that makes perfect sences and i have no idea why i didn't know that already. i can't wait to chop him to bits this weekend

Just got finished printing out the codex. I started bulding a chaos army from the bitz box 2 weeks ago with the intention of using a BA codex that i dont use. That codex is going on the shelf and being swapped for yours. This new codex is EXACTLY how I imagined CSM should be. Very nicely done. I plan on geting a few casual games in with it soon. I also put a link of it on my thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392079.page

Ill def be posting on how the new codex is influencing the project.

Once again, very nice work.

Smitty811 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The rules are that a characteristic cannot be above 10 as standard, but attacks for example can be increased above 10 by wargear, so yes, he could take full advantage of those 12 extra attacks.

Hopefully that makes sense? Cheers!

Thanks that makes perfect sences and i have no idea why i didn't know that already. i can't wait to chop him to bits this weekend

Pretty sure there's been that question asked in YMDC several times, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Good luck, skulls for the skull throne and all that crap!

Strombones wrote:Just got finished printing out the codex. I started bulding a chaos army from the bitz box 2 weeks ago with the intention of using a BA codex that i dont use. That codex is going on the shelf and being swapped for yours. This new codex is EXACTLY how I imagined CSM should be. Very nicely done. I plan on geting a few casual games in with it soon. I also put a link of it on my thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392079.page

Ill def be posting on how the new codex is influencing the project.

Once again, very nice work.

Wow. Thanks a lot man. Seriously, that's a huge compliment, so thanks. The project looks great, never seen Skaven Marines before and they look really cool. Loving the very-Nurgle greenstuff too. I've just subscribed to that thread, so I'll be watching as it progresses!
If I may be so bold, if you make it known in your title of your thread that you're doing Nurgle/Space Skaven Chaos Marines, then you'd probably get more views I'd imagine, just a suggestion.

Loved this bit btw: "Also, that is an RPG that I am going to play as a missle launcher 24" assault 1 no matter what anybody says"; surely it could now be a 'Grenade Launcher'? That RPG does look great though, seriously nice conversion there; I really look forward to seeing how that unit turns out.

Thanks again man, I'll be watching your thread with delight. Cheers!

yeah the grenade launcher fits the bill to a tee and the grey knight psilencer is going to make an excellent warp cannon after a few touches.

I am however becoming a bit skeptical that my friends are going to let me get away with making an entire squad of Terminators T5 for just 25 points. Im guessing they are 30 pts because of the lack of storm bolter and power fist?

I think an extra point of toughness is a lot better than most people think. Maybe the mark of Nurgle could come with +1T AND slow and purposeful to balance it?

Maybe you would have to pay for the mark per model instead of for the whole unit? or maybe it should just be more expensive?

Also the Power of chaos , which happens to be my favorite and most Chaos appropriate, seems pretty strong. People get pretty sensitive about remove from play powers and being able to do it on a 4+ might cause some fuss, especially when it generates a free S6 T5 4 wound creature

Though I do understand it is limited to 6" which is good.

Maybe you would have to roll higher than T only? Maybe a perils of the Warp would result in turning the caster into a spawn? or removing the caster from play? doubles removes the caster from play? or target can get invul saves so idependent characters are less vulnerable? My friend Dave would be pretty pissed if I could remove his archon form the board on a 3+. I on the other hand would find it hilarious.

These are ofcourse rather nit picky things when you compare this codex to Space Wolves or IG.

They are also just opinions on things that would perhaps be looked apon skeptically in my particular gaming group.

Other than that...

1.I strongly agree with your desicion to leave razorbacks and droppods to codex marines.

2.An open top assault style rhino conversion is going to make my day. I always wanted to make something similar to the forge world death corps of krieg centaur. now I can. though i think it should be a hair more expensive than +15 pts. assault vehicles are pretty valuable.

3. Im striving to be the first to make a Land Raider Marauder

4. The heretics! why does the GW codex not have heretics!? Ive been saying this for years.

You obviously seem to have the math worked out pretty well. Ive been pouring over this for the past few hours and am starting to believe that GW couldnt have done better themselves. The freedom of creativity while mainting a logical balance is impressive.

I love the sound of your Warp Cannon; if it's anything like the RPG it'll look awesome too!

I understand what you're saying about the MoN man, I may up it to 30pts in retrospect, but there's balance behind the MoN in that all it does is make your Termies more resistant to small arms, which (thanks to 2+) they are already pretty resistant against; Lascannons, Melta's, Plasma's, Power Weapons and all that will still drop them with ease, but I can see what you're saying. Also bear in mind that an entire squad would be 300pts before upgrades, which is a considerable investment for 10 models.
But yes, 30pts is that a Power Fist is usually 10pts extra, which they don't have. Space Wolf termies are 33pts, whilst ze old CSM termies were 30pts also.

The Power of Chaos is no different from it's current incarnation, except that it works on a roll equal-to or higher (and it has a different name). In the current Codex, it's still not really a well rated power hence my slight improvement. I did originally have it causing instant-death (therefore EW etc. won't be affected) and I may yet take it back to that, as it has benefitted from the boost to spawn.

Regarding the open-topped, it's a 15pts upgrade that whilst it does make it an assault vehicle, also makes it more vulnerable. For an 11/10/10 transport, this isn't good and if an autocannon gets it in its sights, then...
I agree that it could be powerful, but it's not without its flaws, particularly with the inherent cost of the unit inside.
I'll definitely think about Power of Chaos and the MoN termies though, they're both good points.

Thanks again for the kind words man, particularly "freedom of creativity while mainting a logical balance is impressive" as that was one of my main intentions here. Cheers buddy and I look forward to more conversions!

Hey there. What a great codex! Basically, this is everything the current codex should have been, but isn't. Really fine job. I've been playing Chaos since the Rogue Trader days and this one really hits the mark. Of course, nothing quite comes to the level of the old LatD/StD days, but, well, the overall game rules were a tad flawed back then, so there is no really going back (though I'm working on it with some fan rules of my own via corrupting the Necromunda rules, but that is another story). Anyway, really well done. Best fan dex I've seen posted.

You asked for some feedback, so here's a bit of mine. I'm still reading thru it, some more likely to follow. I've always been a Thousand Sons fan, so most of my initial comments will reflect that.

I dislike the way you used the current Mark of Tzeentch pretty much wholesale -- even confusingly keeping the fact that it allows multiple pychic powers to be used, but does not save so under the explanation of the Mark itself -- only elsewhere. There are a couple other ways in your codex to allow multiple powers to be used a turn (and I am not opposed to this, on the contrary), but I think you would be better served to adopt the Psyker Master Leveles rules from the Grey Knights codex. These rules are basically a streamlining of what the Mark of Tzeentch was intending in this regards, but more elegant. Plus, the writing is on the wall. This IS how GW will be implementing this sorta thing going forward (write me down for saying so right now), so I'm sure the rule will be added in the 6th edition core rules to prepare the way for powerful psykers coming down the pike (Eldar, Thousand Sons, etc.).

The Sorcerer Warcoven has a few wonky things going on. I think their ability to modify enemy Psykers is a tad too powerful. If I have 9, that's +9 to their roll?!? Ummm... I think too much. I'd say a flat +2 to the roll would be fine, or just give them Warp Masks (but that feels like a cop out). How about +1 for every sorcerer up to a maximum of +3? That seems more reasonable. Secondly, Warp Flare reads a bit weird. Again, its dependant upon the number of the unit, and just seems too powerful unless it is supposed to override the ability of the other sorcerers to use any other powers. Just seems too powerful. Also, the sorcerers MAY select a single power? That feels wrong. If they don't have a psychic power, they should not be in the warcoven. Hey, who asked THAT guy to be in the coven?? Naahh. My suggestion? Give the warcoven the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and the Warp Flare power standard. If they use the Warp Flare, that's all they do. If not, they cast individually as you laid out. Gives them flexibilty and reflects that they each see themselves as a unique, selfish sorcerer, and so are not Grey Knights. Of course, this may need you to cost the unit higher. By the way, the tomes and their effects are awesome, great work there (and Ahriman gets them all. Sweet! What a way to show he really is the most potent sorcerer in the Galaxy (save maybe Magnus, who won't come out to play) without making it overpowering)).

Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.

Things I Love!

The Warband rules. I like. Feels true.
Warp Mask. Just awesome. Fits perfect, not too powerful and just feels really right.
Sorcerer Warcoven ... I love the imagry and I've been waiting a long time for its return.
Chaos Spawn! Now there's something to be feared and finally worth the points.
Ability to Mark stuff! Tears of joy!
Ahriman. See the comments above. And consider this... Only level 3 psyker in the galixy for the win?!?
No Mercy rule. Nice, elegant, not overpowered. Perfect.
All is Dust and the Sorcerer Commands rules. Very Nice. I know you struggled early on with the All is Dust rule, but I think you really nailed in down here.


Again, well done. In fact, I became a member of this site, instead of just lurking all the time, just so I could comment on it. I know you are trying to finish this project up, but it could use a final editing. I happen to have a degree in English and have edited in the gaming industry before, so I would be happy to do so if you'd like. Just initially reading it thru, I think most of my issues/confusion come from that edit being needed. For example, the Rubric marines get Relentless from the All is Dust power, but they already have it. Also, the Khorne Daemon weapon grants an additional d6 attacks that do not attack the owner on a roll of 1, though I presume they don't happen either if the original d6 roll is a 1 (as is stated for all daemon weapons). The wording is a bit unclear.

Anyway, that's all from me for now. Wow, how's that for a first post?

Kazzigum wrote:
Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.

I made this observation to Dave as well, that Lucius should have Eternal Warrior as he is the Chosen of Slaanesh, not due to the abilities of his armour. The current incarnation in the existing codex might be a little extreme, so I made the suggestion of possible treating it like defensive grenades are maybe a -1(I) if I recall.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kazzigum wrote:
Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.

I made this observation to Dave as well, that Lucius should have Eternal Warrior as he is the Chosen of Slaanesh, not due to the abilities of his armour. The current incarnation in the existing codex might be a little extreme, so I made the suggestion of possible treating it like defensive grenades are maybe a -1(I) if I recall.

Personally, I'd like to see something more along the lines of Saint Celestine's Miraculous Intervention. Say, something like, if Lucious is slain, then each turn the slayer must make a Toughness check. If failed, he is removed from play and replaced by Lucious with one wound. If the slayer is a member of a unit when this happens, Lucious is placed in hand to hand combat with said unit. Will this come up very often? Probably not, but when it does, it will be cool and so, so evocative of the background material. Please keep in mind that's just a rough draft idea -- were I to put the rule to paper, I would refine it and clean the wording up. I'm not really convinced that he should have Eternal Warrior. I could go either way. But the armour should definitely be something like what I laid out above.

Anyway, just my idea.

Hey, how cool would it be if Lucious returned to the field this way after possessing Saint Celestine? Ahhh, I can think of nothing that would please Slaanesh more...

OK, starting to collect the bits for a build of the Marauder. Just wanted to confirm with JustDave to see if these bitx match what he had in mind....



Marauder Cannon:

I'm thinking of using the barrel and bits from a GK terminator Psilencer mounted on the sponson turret from a Baneblade. This assembly would then be mounted where the hull H.Bolter normally is (assuming it fits)


H.Bolter sponsons:

The best (and cheapest) fit i can find so far online is to buy a couple of the TL H.Bolter off the Ravenwing Speeder. That way it is a Tl bolter with a built in ammo feed as well. The main problem with this the only site that have any at all only have 1 set....annoying. Also it is proving expensive to find a spare set of predator or Land Raider sponsons to use.

But thats's the plan.

Kazzigum wrote:Hey there. What a great codex! Basically, this is everything the current codex should have been, but isn't. Really fine job. I've been playing Chaos since the Rogue Trader days and this one really hits the mark. Of course, nothing quite comes to the level of the old LatD/StD days, but, well, the overall game rules were a tad flawed back then, so there is no really going back (though I'm working on it with some fan rules of my own via corrupting the Necromunda rules, but that is another story). Anyway, really well done. Best fan dex I've seen posted.

You asked for some feedback, so here's a bit of mine. I'm still reading thru it, some more likely to follow. I've always been a Thousand Sons fan, so most of my initial comments will reflect that.

Thanks man. Seriously, I really appreciate kind comments like this; makes it worth doing. Cheers man.
Thanks for the feedback too; it's appreciated and I'm definitely willing to listen to it as you phrased it politely, reasonably and included positive feedback also!

I dislike the way you used the current Mark of Tzeentch pretty much wholesale -- even confusingly keeping the fact that it allows multiple pychic powers to be used, but does not save so under the explanation of the Mark itself -- only elsewhere. There are a couple other ways in your codex to allow multiple powers to be used a turn (and I am not opposed to this, on the contrary), but I think you would be better served to adopt the Psyker Master Leveles rules from the Grey Knights codex. These rules are basically a streamlining of what the Mark of Tzeentch was intending in this regards, but more elegant. Plus, the writing is on the wall. This IS how GW will be implementing this sorta thing going forward (write me down for saying so right now), so I'm sure the rule will be added in the 6th edition core rules to prepare the way for powerful psykers coming down the pike (Eldar, Thousand Sons, etc.).

I don't know what the problem is with the basic mark of Tzeentch (5+ invulnerable save), it provides a clear bonus and suits Tzeentch, the only problem with it I find is it's limited application (being an invulnerable save), but I try to counter that by not costing it like many invulnerable saves are and I price it according to the units role (e.g. more for Possessed, much less for Heretics).
Regarding the Psyker Mastery levels, I wasn't sure about that, most of all because I'm not experienced with the Grey Knights Codex (not least because I don't own it), but also because it's only been implemented in the Grey Knights Codex. As you said - and wouldn't surprise me - it may become much more widespread, but then again it may not. If you could provide me more information about the psychic mastery levels, that would be GREAT.
I agree, it's definitely more elegant and simplified than the MoT as-it-is. However, I don't think the mark of tzeentch is exactly complicated either and many codices use the same system without issue. It'd be a improvement (probably), but I don't think it's necessary either... You've definitely piqued my interest however.

The Sorcerer Warcoven has a few wonky things going on. I think their ability to modify enemy Psykers is a tad too powerful. If I have 9, that's +9 to their roll?!? Ummm... I think too much. I'd say a flat +2 to the roll would be fine, or just give them Warp Masks (but that feels like a cop out). How about +1 for every sorcerer up to a maximum of +3? That seems more reasonable. Secondly, Warp Flare reads a bit weird. Again, its dependant upon the number of the unit, and just seems too powerful unless it is supposed to override the ability of the other sorcerers to use any other powers. Just seems too powerful. Also, the sorcerers MAY select a single power? That feels wrong. If they don't have a psychic power, they should not be in the warcoven. Hey, who asked THAT guy to be in the coven?? Naahh. My suggestion? Give the warcoven the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and the Warp Flare power standard. If they use the Warp Flare, that's all they do. If not, they cast individually as you laid out. Gives them flexibilty and reflects that they each see themselves as a unique, selfish sorcerer, and so are not Grey Knights. Of course, this may need you to cost the unit higher. By the way, the tomes and their effects are awesome, great work there (and Ahriman gets them all. Sweet! What a way to show he really is the most potent sorcerer in the Galaxy (save maybe Magnus, who won't come out to play) without making it overpowering)).

Whoops. The +1 modifier per-sorcerer was a typo of sorts; that was actually supposed to be for every three Sorcerers within the unit (therefore to maximum of 3). This also links to the sacred number of Tzeentch (as is the 18" range for Tzeentch powers). This has of course been changed...
Warp Flare I wouldn't say is too powerful personally; again, it relies on your taking multiple 40pts models that are only slightly tougher than your average Tactical Marine. Whilst Str6 is good, the AP4 isn't. If you were to do the maths, you should find that it's flexible/effective against a variety of enemies but doesn't really excel, particularly against high armour saves. Like many things, I'd recommend their psychic powers to be taken in variety; a mixture of different psychic powers enables them to work against a variety of enemies. Honestly, I have no intention to change it as I feel it's balanced but good.

Regarding the optional Psychic Powers; originally it was just all psychic powers however someone commented that it wasn't really a coven, but just a collection of sorcerers with no teamwork; hence the optional tomes. I'm also pleased with the tomes; they provide a genuine bonus and choice between taking them and a psychic power and they are really worth taking (and boost ahriman). I agree, it's odd that some don't have powers, but they're worth not having IMHO.

Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.

I knew Pilau would leap upon this!

I'm still not sure what the problem is with Lucius' armour personally. His armour itself doesn't really do much; it's Slaanesh that recreates him whilst the Doom Siren provides the psychic attack and the Lash of Torment acting against enemies in a debilitating manner. The Armour is just a symbol of his resurrection IMHO; as is eternal warrior and hence his not dying.
The problem I personally have with the proposed rules from you and Pilau is:
1) -1 initiative provides little bonus to Lucius; he's already Initiative 7 so very few enemies will strike before him anyway.
2) The removing an enemy is also something I have a problem with. Of course I considered it when 1st making the rules, but there's several flaws with it IMHO. Cyrius' transformation took several days, rather than the course of one or several turns. Furthermore, I have not (currently) included any rules that remove models from play as like many others I don't like this mechanic. Finally, there's a lot of problems that could arise from who can replaced; Unique characters like Calgar, C'tan, Abaddon (who also can have EW) etc. and others being replaced?! Creatures like Carnifex's, Orks, Krootox etc. would turn into Lucius? Creatures hat do not experience please to cause their death, such as Necrons, Tyranids etc?Things that are already dead like Eldrad, Necrons etc? Also, how would something like a Termagaunt or a Grot become Lucius?

I feel that eternal warrior represents how Lucius would be eternally a warrior; Slaanesh won't let him die and his armour represents that. It also helps a close combat and anti-character model such as Lucius; allowing him to excel in the thick of things without having to worry about a hidden powerfist or whatnot. It also means that he can go toe-to-toe with characters such as Lysander, Mephiston etc. as he should be able to.

Things I Love!

The Warband rules. I like. Feels true.
Warp Mask. Just awesome. Fits perfect, not too powerful and just feels really right.
Sorcerer Warcoven ... I love the imagry and I've been waiting a long time for its return.
Chaos Spawn! Now there's something to be feared and finally worth the points.
Ability to Mark stuff! Tears of joy!
Ahriman. See the comments above. And consider this... Only level 3 psyker in the galixy for the win?!?
No Mercy rule. Nice, elegant, not overpowered. Perfect.
All is Dust and the Sorcerer Commands rules. Very Nice. I know you struggled early on with the All is Dust rule, but I think you really nailed in down here.

cheers man!

Again, well done. In fact, I became a member of this site, instead of just lurking all the time, just so I could comment on it. I know you are trying to finish this project up, but it could use a final editing. I happen to have a degree in English and have edited in the gaming industry before, so I would be happy to do so if you'd like.

Thanks again man, seriously, cheers.
I have an A-level in English (don't know what that equates to in the states) and good english, so most of it's good, but yes it could certainly to with proof-reading and I would not object to your doing so in the slightest should you want to!

Personally though, I do feel most of the problems that arise are solved through a bit of common sense - I'm not trying to suggest in the slightest that you don't have it, it's simply my opinion on the rules...

For example, whilst I agree that the relentless/all is dust thing may be odd, there's no problem with it existing twice (it's twice as clear though! ) and all is dust clarifies WHY they have relentless, whilst the special rules listing clarifies that they DO have relentless IMHO.
For the Khornate Daemon Weapon, it states
Just initially reading it thru, I think most of my issues/confusion come from that edit being needed. For example, the Rubric marines get Relentless from the All is Dust power, but they already have it.
For the Khornate Daemon Weapon, the daemon weapon rules state "the user gains no additional attacks and all bonuses for wielding the Daemon Weapon are lost for the duration of that turn." which means that A) it can't gain additional attacks if the 1st roll is a 1. B) it can't roll a 2nd dice if the 1st roll is a 1. The clarification was partially due to the existing Daemon Weapon in the official CSM Codex.

Thanks again for the feedback man.

Praxiss wrote:OK, starting to collect the bits for a build of the Marauder. Just wanted to confirm with JustDave to see if these bitx match what he had in mind....

Marauder Cannon:

I'm thinking of using the barrel and bits from a GK terminator Psilencer mounted on the sponson turret from a Baneblade. This assembly would then be mounted where the hull H.Bolter normally is (assuming it fits)

Sounds good to me! I worry the Psylencer may be a bit small (two would work mind), but otherwise that sounds good to me!

H.Bolter sponsons:

The best (and cheapest) fit i can find so far online is to buy a couple of the TL H.Bolter off the Ravenwing Speeder. That way it is a Tl bolter with a built in ammo feed as well. The main problem with this the only site that have any at all only have 1 set....annoying. Also it is proving expensive to find a spare set of predator or Land Raider sponsons to use.

But thats's the plan.

Both of those, sound very reasonable to me; if you could get it to work then I reckon it'd look really good! Unfortunately, I don't think I have any of the parts you need so I probably can't help you there. Good luck though mate, it sounds like a good design and I look forward to seeing it Praxiss!