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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What is a non-Rubric Tzeentch-marked Marine then? Aside from Sorcerers and Possessed?



Yeah exactly. In fourth edition some of us did take basic marines in formerly pure TS lists, because rubrics were so clumsy. One problem is that even though the rules in 4th allowed for marked, non-cult units, a lot of people didn’t use the mark of tzeentch on their changemarines, because all it did was make them more expensive. There also wasn’t any coherent design or background for them. And I don’t think I want any sculpts or background that were invented because of a mechanistic niche that “should” exist.

There was one person online who gave his change marines the mark of Khorne. He wrote them off as having mutations, and seemed embarrassed about it. It definitely is embarrassing, because the idea all along was to play a list of rubrics and sorcerers and there should have just been useful rules for those instead of having to pad them out with mooks.

The Eye of Terror codex was really nice, because the mutants had optional upgrades that were kind of god aligned, but not really. The upgrade would be called goat-headed for +1 S, or hopping, floating, and leaping to move as cavalry - no mention of a god there. Then the description would say that khorne armies typically would feature goat-headed mutants, but there was nothing ruleswise khorne- aligned about them and you didn’t write “mark of khorne” on your list

I’m very skeptical of upgrade marks. I don’t think they need to be an option. If it’s a detachment-wide keyword the same as chapter tactic or other sub faction, that’s one thing. As for giving them to individual models, that’s not for me. Also in the background just because someone wants to be affiliated with a god, that doesn’t mean they deserve a mark.
   
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I think marks offer an interesting compromise to the objectively worse legion traits vs. loyalist chapter traits and what not.
As for Tzeentch I would argue that a marine that secured his blessing would find that the changer of ways may change the way his bolter’s bolts go maybe to represent that each Tzeentch marked unit may reroll a single failed hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 01:00:31


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wasn't the whole point of the Rubric to stop the endless mutations that were destroying all the non-Psyker Tzeentch-dedicated Marines?

Are there examples of Tzeentch Marines in the fluff that aren't either:

1. Rubrics.
2. Sorcerers.
3. Warp-touched in some significant fashion (eg. Possessed).



By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 01:06:49


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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To be fair I would bet that a nurgle non plague marine would look like a sickly but not yet rotting or bloated marine. He may have poxes or pus oozing boils, or just pallid and droopy eyes. Maybe the corners of its mouth is smeared with dried blood from hemoragic disease or a diseased lung. Maybe he finds that a normal mortal wound for a space marine debilitated him temporary but doesn’t quite kill him. Maybe his eyes dull as he inches further from life. Maybe he more or less still looks like most marines, and especially or always so with a helmet on.

I am fairly certain that most nurgle dedicated marines will find their way to becoming a plague marine though. It seems like his followers crave his gifts.

As for Tzeentch, there are a few war bands to include the scourged that are not rubrics sorcerers or possessed/mutated to heavy degree.


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What is a non-Rubric Tzeentch-marked Marine then? Aside from Sorcerers and Possessed?

A CSM that's dedicated to Tzeentch enough to recieve a blessing.


Yeah in the 1999 or 3.0 codex, only squad champions and higher could be “dedicated enough.” For troops, havocs, raptors etc, the champion could get a buff from marking but the basic guys didn’t get anything. Since they’re goons.



macluvin wrote: maybe to represent that each Tzeentch marked unit may reroll a single failed hit.


Yeah this is exactly what the design process for fourth was. They made up something arbitrary, just for the sake of having a rule, and it was useless. You could also buy an icon that was useless. They were rules for the sake of having a rule, just filling space in the codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?



And if there’s no artwork or models or background of such a thing, then there isn’t a reason to make rules for it.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wasn't the whole point of the Rubric to stop the endless mutations that were destroying all the non-Psyker Tzeentch-dedicated Marines?

Are there examples of Tzeentch Marines in the fluff that aren't either:

1. Rubrics.
2. Sorcerers.
3. Warp-touched in some significant fashion (eg. Possessed).

Not recently, but yes, there are examples. The thing with the Rubric is its specifically a Thousand Sons thing, because their geneseed was causing their bodies to rebel. It wasn't random mutation, but a specific failure in that legion.

The problem is a non 1000 Son Tzeentch marine historically is just a dude with a 6++... or a bonus with psychic powers he doesn't have, depending on the mark rules at the time.

By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?

Less bloated. But usually still tougher.

Like a lot of things, both of those (and EC and WE) got more and more Flanderized. It wasn't as noticeable with the TS and DG because they were written up as the Flanderization (barely) started, but the original write-up and army lists for both legions (in RoC: Lost and the Damned) had 'Traitor Marines' AND 'Thousand Son/Death Guard Marines' and neither of those were in their final form yet. The original rules for TS marines was an aura that nearby Wizard-Champions of Tzeentch could tap for d6 extra psychic points. Plague Marines could swap a random Chaos Attribute for A 'Gift of Mortarion' (a shorter random d100 table), which was random disease effects, Feels no Pain (d6 extra wounds for the model) or Bloat (+1 T and -1 I) or a gut tentacle (+1 A) or cosmetic effects that did nothing. (because GW loved random 'screw you' results for chaos)

By contrast the WE and EC army lists predated Berzerkers and Noise Marines entirely. All WE had frenzy and +1 to psychic saves, all EC had a bonus to psychology tests. Other than that, the differences were which daemons could be summoned and unit sizes (multiples of 6 or 8).

The format of 40k army lists changed a lot between those two books. They weren't quite incompatible, but they didn't look like they were from the same game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 01:42:33


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Australia

To avoid a quote tower about minor points:

Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wasn't the whole point of the Rubric to stop the endless mutations that were destroying all the non-Psyker Tzeentch-dedicated Marines?


That was a problem with the Thousand Sons gene-seed specifically - the legion was nearly destroyed by mutation prior to Magnus' arrival, the problem just became 100x worse once they were sworn to Tzeentch. I don't think that means that a non-Thousand Son force dedicated to Tzeentch has to suffer from mutations to the same ruinous degree as the pre-Rubric TS.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are there examples of Tzeentch Marines in the fluff that aren't either:

1. Rubrics.
2. Sorcerers.
3. Warp-touched in some significant fashion (eg. Possessed).


Yes, we even have rules for them - The Scourged. We've also got rules/art/background for renegade warbands dedicated to Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle.


Some interesting points raised over the last page or two. I think I'd probably prefer marks to be something you apply to an army or a detachment rather than a unit.

I honestly have no idea how GW are going to approach marks in our 9th edition book though, if I'm honest. We've got a few layers of rules to take into account: a legion/warband trait, whatever our mono army bonus is, and marks (assuming marks on a detachment level don't end up being our mono bonus).

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Voss wrote:
[
Not recently, but yes, there are examples. The thing with the Rubric is its specifically a Thousand Sons thing, because their geneseed was causing their bodies to rebel. It wasn't random mutation, but a specific failure in that legion.

The problem is a non 1000 Son Tzeentch marine historically is just a dude with a 6++... or a bonus with psychic powers he doesn't have, depending on the mark rules at the time.

By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?

Less bloated. But usually still tougher.


so what is that? Is there an iconic Jes Goodwin sculpt of that? An Adrian Smith color plate that we keep flipping back to in a codex?
   
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pelicaniforce wrote:
They were rules for the sake of having a rule, just filling space in the codex.
I think they were Gav's attempt at replicating Marks from 3.5, only poorly, leading to situations where the guy with the icon dies and everyone forgets who they worship.

pelicaniforce wrote:
And if there’s no artwork or models or background of such a thing, then there isn’t a reason to make rules for it.
Well I never said that, but generally speaking I tend to try to work within the structure of what exists rather than inventing new things out of whole cloth.

Voss wrote:
Not recently, but yes, there are examples. The thing with the Rubric is its specifically a Thousand Sons thing, because their geneseed was causing their bodies to rebel. It wasn't random mutation, but a specific failure in that legion.
Thank you for clarifying that.

Voss wrote:
Less bloated. But usually still tougher.
Alright. I'm getting a sense of things now. I was thinking about this conundrum on my walk today (that got cut short by half my Gang Stronhold's showing up via courier, so I had to race home! ) and I'm having a few ideas when it comes to Cult Troops vs Marked Troops vs Dedicated to a Chaos God, and what role Champions and Chosen play in that, what is a unit upgrade vs an army-wide thing, and how that could even tie into Veteran Skills that a few people have brought up.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
We've got a few layers of rules to take into account: a legion/warband trait, whatever our mono army bonus is, and marks (assuming marks on a detachment level don't end up being our mono bonus).
I think rule layering can work if there are set defined layers (army/faction/unit), and if its consistent across the board. And if the layers build upon what came before (ie. Unit A gets Rule X, but Unit B gets Rule X & Y, and unit C gets Rule X & Y and Z).

This is also why USRs make things easier, as they allow you to compress rules boat by finding a lot of similar rules and find a middle ground rule that can even by dynamic to cover variance. For example, if you find several units that have some variation on +X" to advance and charge (+1" to charge, +"1 to charge and advance, +2" to charge and advance and so on, you just delete all of those and replace them with a new universal rule. Something like

Swift & Deadly (X): The unit always add a number of inches to its Advance and Charge moves equal to the number in parentheses.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I do wonder if Marks could be more closely linked to Unit Leaders?
One of the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many things I absolutely despise about the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex was that the Marks... well... there were no Marks. Let's take a step back. I'll try to limit my extremely frusted anti-4th Edition outbursts.

The 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex destroyed Chaos as a faction and salted the earth forevermore did away with the Marks of Chaos from the 3.5 book as well as everything else that made Chaos interesting replacing them with Icons of Chaos because the CSM kit, which I still love, had a banner pole and 5 different topper options. The legacy of these models is still seen today with the weird 'Take a Mark that does nothing so you can pay points for an Icon!" rules.

As I mentioned above, the Icon rules never made any sense to me because they were the only way, outside of Cult Troops (which was something else that accursed Codex ruined by eliminating Cult Bikers, Havocs, Terminators and so on from the rules) to have 'dedicated' forces, and when the Icon died, the whole unit just up and forgot who they worshipped.

But, this discussion has made me reconsider that perspective... slightly. As you and a couple others have said, what if it were linked to squad leaders? What if the Aspiring Champion is what gave the unit their dedication? I can see them 'losing faith', so to speak, as I did with GW when they put out that Jervisified 4th Ed book if the one leading them in their faith gets ganked.

This could even tie into Sacred Numbers, and even how different Legions react (Word Bearers might be all faithful, and thus do not need their Champions to maintain their faith). Would also be a nice differentiation for Chosen - if they're marked, they're all marked, befitting their status as the Chosen among the Chaos Lord's forces.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Slaaneshi Marked CSM. Their unit leader might be focussed on Martial Perfection, granting the squad a boost or re-roll on to hit rolls. Or they might instead get Always Strikes First type stuff.
You're kinda describing Exarch powers in a way, which in and of itself isn't a terrible idea to replicate. And I prefer to replicate existing rules structures than just invent new ones where possible.

Oh, and Grotsnik, wasn't it you who suggested a two-sided approach for Khorne? Blood for the Blood God for Shooting, and Skulls for the Skull Throne for HTH combat? Well, it's not exactly that, but Creative Assembly have thrown in a system that uses both of those for the TWW3 Khorne faction.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 03:09:19


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wasn't the whole point of the Rubric to stop the endless mutations that were destroying all the non-Psyker Tzeentch-dedicated Marines?

Are there examples of Tzeentch Marines in the fluff that aren't either:

1. Rubrics.
2. Sorcerers.
3. Warp-touched in some significant fashion (eg. Possessed).



By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?

Well I know there are Tzeentch marine models from Rogue Trader that are mutated, but also still wielding wargear unlike a Posessed marine. Missile Launchers, Lascannons, a Plasma Pistol and Flamer(?). They sometimes have the same mushroom lower body that Flamer-daemons have. Some of the cooler models from that era, imo.

Heh, there's also a Nurgle Marine with a Heavy Bolter in a pic in Chaos 3.5, a weapon which actual Deathguard Plague Marines could not get iirc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 04:00:24


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pelicaniforce wrote:
Voss wrote:
[
Not recently, but yes, there are examples. The thing with the Rubric is its specifically a Thousand Sons thing, because their geneseed was causing their bodies to rebel. It wasn't random mutation, but a specific failure in that legion.

The problem is a non 1000 Son Tzeentch marine historically is just a dude with a 6++... or a bonus with psychic powers he doesn't have, depending on the mark rules at the time.

By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?

Less bloated. But usually still tougher.


so what is that? Is there an iconic Jes Goodwin sculpt of that? An Adrian Smith color plate that we keep flipping back to in a codex?


Were there sculpts and pictures? Yeah, obviously. Not sure where this oddly aggressive 'pics or it didn't happen' comes from (especially when we had multiple editions before the everything was codified to the regimented version of the modern chaos range), but it isn't that hard to find pictures of old miniatures and art on the internet.

Heres a good starting point:
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rc0222renegades/index.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rc0216renegades/index.htm [renegades & WE & EC]
https://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mao1qu1oS61rndemuo1_1280.jpg [various Nurglesque Renegades and others]
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/362539838727914053/ [tzeentch and nurgle followers]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 04:00:55


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Voss wrote:
Were there sculpts and pictures? Yeah, obviously. Not sure where this oddly aggressive 'pics or it didn't happen' comes from (especially when we had multiple editions before the everything was codified to the regimented version of the modern chaos range), but it isn't that hard to find pictures of old miniatures and art on the internet.

Heres a good starting point:
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rc0222renegades/index.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rc0216renegades/index.htm [renegades & WE & EC]
https://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mao1qu1oS61rndemuo1_1280.jpg [various Nurglesque Renegades and others]
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/362539838727914053/ [tzeentch and nurgle followers]


I long for mutant marines with ribbed armor. So, do they need to use the system of blue tzeentch marines get a fixed buff, and green nurgle marines get a fixed buff?

Because the mutations from the Eye of Terror codex is still an option, the ones that are implied to be god aligned, but don’t have any rules to that effect.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Before we get all excited I should add that a lot of these old sculpts also existed long before 40k went through it's mass rationalisation at the start of 2nd Ed.

They're from the "make whatever you feel" phase of 40ks history. Lots of half-baked ideas and stuff that wouldn't see full realisation for years to come, and some stuff that was thrown against the wall but didn't stick.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 04:19:01


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Before we get all excited I should add that a lot of these old sculpts also existed long before 40k went through it's mass rationalisation at the start of 2nd Ed.

They're from the "make whatever you feel" phase of 40ks history. Lots of half-baked ideas and stuff that wouldn't see full realisation for years to come, and some stuff that was thrown against the wall but didn't stick.



So they’re too old that means they’re not polished enough. What about https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/pt3u2l/warp_ghosts_the_faction_you_hardly_hear_anything/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">the warp ghosts who as recently as 2017 were described as having totally unrecognizable armor and as being intermittently tangible and appearing from mist like a chaos analogue to legion of the damned? They might be a modern version of some of those RT era sculpts. That is, at least in the sense that they’re something with a distinct visual appearance and could be roughly “tzeentchian” without having to strictly be painted blue and lined up with some version of blue marines and Egyptian trimmings.
   
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K, Imma need'ja to stop putting words in my mouth. That's the second time you've done it on this page alone, and it's getting tiresome.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:


pelicaniforce wrote:
And if there’s no artwork or models or background of such a thing, then there isn’t a reason to make rules for it.
Well I never said that, but generally speaking I tend to try to work within the structure of what exists rather than inventing new things out of whole cloth.



I’m sorry. did you mean this? I said that. I said that the reason to write rules is that there are existing models or background for a unit, and the rules come second. Sorry.
   
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pelicaniforce wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What is a non-Rubric Tzeentch-marked Marine then? Aside from Sorcerers and Possessed?

A CSM that's dedicated to Tzeentch enough to recieve a blessing.


Yeah in the 1999 or 3.0 codex, only squad champions and higher could be “dedicated enough.” For troops, havocs, raptors etc, the champion could get a buff from marking but the basic guys didn’t get anything. Since they’re goons.



macluvin wrote: maybe to represent that each Tzeentch marked unit may reroll a single failed hit.


Yeah this is exactly what the design process for fourth was. They made up something arbitrary, just for the sake of having a rule, and it was useless. You could also buy an icon that was useless. They were rules for the sake of having a rule, just filling space in the codex.



I ripped the idea from the loyalist book and figured that it being a rough equivalent of half a loyalist chapter tactic, and that it would make for a decent “free” rule to compliment the other half coming from legion/war and traits.

Besides, in a chaos space marine squad refilling a failed special weapon hit or a failed hidden power fist didn’t seem like that lame a buff. Above all else it is flexible enough to give a decent amount of freedom with list building.
A havoc squad rerolling a lascannon hit didn’t seem that bad either.

I really liked the idea of khorne getting a buff that triggered after a unit dies for the remainder of the player turn, and to attach shenanigans that really interact with the game like adding 3” to consolidate moves because being able to consolidate into new combat sounded like an interesting way to make an aggressive tempo army.

Point is I spent a bit of time exploring what had already been tried and I am trying to think about what space hasn’t been explored. On that note it’s a shame that combat seems as the most engaging phase a woefully unexplored mechanic.

There’s 30 monkeys in here throwing ideas around. Somebody has got to have written some Shakespeare in this thread by now.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wasn't the whole point of the Rubric to stop the endless mutations that were destroying all the non-Psyker Tzeentch-dedicated Marines?

Are there examples of Tzeentch Marines in the fluff that aren't either:

1. Rubrics.
2. Sorcerers.
3. Warp-touched in some significant fashion (eg. Possessed).



By the same token, what's a Nurgle-dedicated non-Plague Marine look like?



Behold:
Scourged and the purge. One hears all the lies, the other specialises in chemical warfare.

A Mark should be, if it is an upgrade, able to Turn a csm into a "half culti", so to speak.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wasn't the whole point of the Rubric to stop the endless mutations that were destroying all the non-Psyker Tzeentch-dedicated Marines?

Are there examples of Tzeentch Marines in the fluff that aren't either:

1. Rubrics.
2. Sorcerers.
3. Warp-touched in some significant fashion (eg. Possessed).



The Rubric was to stop the mutations in the Thousand Sons that started up again because of their exposure to the eye of terror. It was not because of Tzeentch dedication. That's where the disconnect seems to be coming from it seems given that the Thousand Sons had issues with mutations beforehand due to their genetics that with the newfound exposure it just caused it to grow again.

There are other bands of Tzeentch marked throughout but the rather common gifts of mutation Tzeentch likes to send out does tend to cause his followers to fall prey to becoming Chaos spawn in greater numbers then other gods.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 07:08:24


 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One of the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many things I absolutely despise about the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex was that the Marks... well... there were no Marks. Let's take a step back. I'll try to limit my extremely frusted anti-4th Edition outbursts.

The 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex destroyed Chaos as a faction and salted the earth forevermore did away with the Marks of Chaos from the 3.5 book as well as everything else that made Chaos interesting replacing them with Icons of Chaos because the CSM kit, which I still love, had a banner pole and 5 different topper options. The legacy of these models is still seen today with the weird 'Take a Mark that does nothing so you can pay points for an Icon!" rules.

As I mentioned above, the Icon rules never made any sense to me because they were the only way, outside of Cult Troops (which was something else that accursed Codex ruined by eliminating Cult Bikers, Havocs, Terminators and so on from the rules) to have 'dedicated' forces, and when the Icon died, the whole unit just up and forgot who they worshipped.

But, this discussion has made me reconsider that perspective... slightly. As you and a couple others have said, what if it were linked to squad leaders? What if the Aspiring Champion is what gave the unit their dedication? I can see them 'losing faith', so to speak, as I did with GW when they put out that Jervisified 4th Ed book if the one leading them in their faith gets ganked.

This could even tie into Sacred Numbers, and even how different Legions react (Word Bearers might be all faithful, and thus do not need their Champions to maintain their faith). Would also be a nice differentiation for Chosen - if they're marked, they're all marked, befitting their status as the Chosen among the Chaos Lord's forces.



Funnily enough IA 13 tied Marks (covenants) to squad champions for R&H. The higher up the ladder of the army the bigger the impact aswell on unit choices and capabilities. (Mark your demagogue and behold, you get access to cultmarines, plague zombies, dreadnoughts, more spawn, etc, etc et all.)

It was a good system, that one, one of the many things GW shot because it seemingly was good for a chaos faction, in a long run of shooting good ideas for chaos factions which are tied to the identity of said chaos forces.

I also think as an aside, people need to drop the percieved need for an official Model for x unit type.
Aka just because i call it in the list i chose to make a "rubric", doesn't mean that the "rubric" i play is a rubric but rather a tzeentchian scourged CSM squad highly favoured by the changer.

Doubly problematic that insistence of sterilising and streamlining chaos is for units that are supposed to be HIGHLY individualistic or random/ changed.
Possessed have been brought up, which most of the time and still are , randumb standardised.
What they should be, is at the most basic level a blank slate datasheet with a core statline AND THEN the meat in choice of mutations. (heck you could even tie some mutations to specific gods , but imagine giving customizability to chaos players)
What they are: A 2w 5++ csm with d3 + something attacks and a meh melee
Chosen are another one of those units that just... lack anything really to make them something worth their supposed baseline , next in ladder of taking over position due to personal merit that chosen are supposed to be. Instead, they are csm +1 A and having raided an armory.

Ironically i think that customizability and use x as y was what was intended with the 4th edition CSM codex, however, that would've required far more work especially in the general customizability sphere. And funnily enough we can see what happens when this idea get's executed well with IA13. In which a mere 3 troop choices could represent from dark mech thralls, to cultists, to traitor guard, to paramilitary, to pirates, to bloodpact death brigades, to daemon cults. With 3 standardised unit sheets which could be modified by the players for leader choices and in the sheets themselves.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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I think I need to delve into my precious lovely Realm of Chaos books to see how Marks etc were handled in Rogue Trader.

You might think that’s something I’d know off the top of my head, but I don’t think I’ve ever really looked into it.

Certainly the main restrictions were on which Chapter (as they were then) could field what, much like the Orky armies in ‘Ere We Go (no, not Waaargh! The Orks. That had no rules at all ) and Freebooterz.

Of course, I’m not suggesting a direct transposition. The game has come a long way since RT, where many of the restrictions were a way to make a fairly small model range produce a greater variety in noticeably different armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What is a non-Rubric Tzeentch-marked Marine then? Aside from Sorcerers and Possessed?



This is indeed The Biggest Question.

After all, all Khorne Berzerkers are dedicated to Khorne, but not all Khorne Dedicated CSM are Berzerkers.

As ever, I’m really out of touch with the modern game, so please take any all suggestions from me with a decent pinch of salt. If they’re cack or massively OP, it’s not deliberate! (This is to everyone, not HBMC specifically).

Certainly I feel generic CSM bearing a Mark should bring something to the table. Given Cult Units tend to be limited in equipment, having Generic Marked Marines could be a way to have a continuing theme in a force, without completely sacrificing list flexibility.

So a Khorne force should have a predisposition to HTH, but still have the option of including shooty units. Perhaps units with the Mark of Khorne, being more used to and more determined to reach Glorious Combat, can roll 3D6 for charge reach, picking the two highest (it doesn’t make them faster, but insulates against Banana Slipper charges).

Any unit with Veterans of the Long War should, perhaps, have an additional -1 to Armour Saves against Loyalist Marines, to represent of everyone in the Galaxy, they’re the most adept and knowledgable about where to place one’s blows/shots to take down an Astartes. Certainly it would go some way to redressing the balance of the frankly somewhat weedy Bolter now the goodies have Bolt Rifles.

Or, to represent their greater tenacity, tinker with how Battleshock affects them? Don’t know enough about how it currently works to elaborate or suggest further.

You might see a common theme here, that I’m placing “background into rules” over “is this really any good in the game?”. That’s just how I am, and my preference for game rules. That of course is no reason for anyone else to follow suit!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 08:57:30


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Why only Thousand Sons should be blessed by Tzeentch or Death Guard to Nurgle?

I mean. We have actual rules and background for a good number of renegade chaos marines that follow one or other god. Here you have the full list of all Chaos Space Marine organizations from warbands to renegade chapters to legions: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Legions_and_Warbands_(List)

And you had stuff like Nightlords following khorne. In 10000 years you don't believe you'll have word bearers, sons of horus, iron warriors, and the giant number of disorganized warbands made from a bunch of all legions + renegades + newly created chaos marines following this god and that god? I tought that was common knowledge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 09:07:09


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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And….ooooh crikey give us options for mutated Astartes.

Because looking at the range, you kind of wonder why Ahriman bothered with the Rubric, as Chaos is no longer gribbly and body horrory.

Even a specific unit would do. And don’t make it a random shifting benefit. By all means have a relatively generic benefit (decrease enemy Ld due to the horror show, or add an attack. Something distinct, but not overshadowing), with a Chaos Forsaken type kit where we can build them super gribbly or only slightly manky if you don’t mind the tentacles and eye stalks.

For those unfamiliar with the “only around for a short time, seemingly not a good time” Forsaken kit?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
Why only Thousand Sons should be blessed by Tzeentch or Death Guard to Nurgle?

I mean. We have actual rules and background for a good number of renegade chaos marines that follow one or other god. Here you have the full list of all Chaos Space Marine organizations from warbands to renegade chapters to legions: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Legions_and_Warbands_(List)

And you had stuff like Nightlords following khorne. In 10000 years you don't believe you'll have word bearers, sons of horus, iron warriors, and the giant number of disorganized warbands made from a bunch of all legions + renegades + newly created chaos marines following this god and that god? I tought that was common knowledge.


I think that’s HBMC’s question. Being Marked doesn’t make you a Cult Troop.

So what should a Marked, non-Cult unit of a given God look like rules wise? What benefits should that Mark confer?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 09:11:55


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We've had about 12 people reply to my "What's a non-Rubric Tzeentch Marine look like?" query. Thanks. You can all stop now.

 Galas wrote:
Why only Thousand Sons should be blessed by Tzeentch or Death Guard to Nurgle?
I don't think anyone's making that argument?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For those unfamiliar with the “only around for a short time, seemingly not a good time” Forsaken kit?

I still have two boxes of them. Untouched.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Being Marked doesn’t make you a Cult Troop. So what should a Marked, non-Cult unit of a given God look like rules wise? What benefits should that Mark confer?
Exactly!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 09:36:25


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H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Being Marked doesn’t make you a Cult Troop. So what should a Marked, non-Cult unit of a given God look like rules wise? What benefits should that Mark confer?
Exactly!


I think Not Online is on the right track:

Not Online!!! wrote:A Mark should be, if it is an upgrade, able to Turn a csm into a "half culti", so to speak.

They should be similar to what the Cult Marines of that particular God are, but not as powerful. A Nurgle Marked CSM, for example, would be tougher than a normal CSM, but not as tough as an actual Plague Marine. So maybe +1T, but no Disgustingly Resilient? Or maybe the other way around? Just spitballing.

But I have to ask:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Alright. I'm getting a sense of things now. I was thinking about this conundrum on my walk today (that got cut short by half my Gang Stronhold's showing up via courier, so I had to race home! ) and I'm having a few ideas when it comes to Cult Troops vs Marked Troops vs Dedicated to a Chaos God, and what role Champions and Chosen play in that, what is a unit upgrade vs an army-wide thing, and how that could even tie into Veteran Skills that a few people have brought up.

What are your ideas on Veteran Skills? C'mon, share.
   
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Got to say I’m really enjoying this thread. I know it’s a bit like blowing my own trumpet given I’m the OP, but the conversation has been really constructive and interesting thus far!

OT? Yeah. There needs to some kind of distinction, something noticeable, between Cult, Marked and Agnostic CSM.

Cults to me absolutely should be Turbo Nutters in a way fitting to their God.

Marked should have perks lesser but akin to Cult units.

Agnostic? Look it’s a silly term but it helps split the three up. Those should, perhaps, have the widest range of equipment options, as without any level of specific dedication to a given God, they’re less inclined to a specific form of warfare.

By all means have Cult troops restricted in a Core CSM Codex. Perhaps allow them as Elites only, or only allow them in as an allied contingent. But make them truly terrifying. They are after all near immortal super beings of colossal intellect (the intelligence being an often over looked aspect of being an Astartes). And they’ve dedicated themselves to a specific way of life and warfare. They should be super deadly.

Marked Units? I view that more an expression of preference than outright dedication to a specific method of war.

Agnostic? Flexible in mindset, flexible in equipment.

Again exactly how to translate that into rules, I can’t really offer much weight,

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Agnostic? Flexible in mindset, flexible in equipment.


This is also potentially a space where you can play around with the idea of lesser Chaos powers (Cult of Destruction, Great Horned Rat, etc). Something that's been mentioned lightly in 40k over the years, but never gets explored much beyond one-offs like Be'lakor.

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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Agnostic? Flexible in mindset, flexible in equipment.


This is also potentially a space where you can play around with the idea of lesser Chaos powers (Cult of Destruction, Great Horned Rat, etc). Something that's been mentioned lightly in 40k over the years, but never gets explored much beyond one-offs like Be'lakor.


We know of Chaos Daemon entities, that are not directly aligned to the big four that still wield quite big influence.
Black tontine contract enforcers come to mind, sheitan, etc.
Raptors specifically seem to have their own deity that turns them into Warptalons seemingly.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Raptor deity?
sheitan? Black tontine enforcers?

there'd be a lot of things, specific greater daemons come to mind aswell?

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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What if veteran skills was the equivalent of however we choose to treat god dedication, either through marks of chaos as a passive buff or a key to unlocking an additional one? The gods may bestow favor upon the devoted of their followers but those who wage the long war under chaos undivided had to develop their own favor; the sneakier warbandsmay have outflank or scout equivalent redeployment, or perhaps warbands May specialize in hunting tanks and monsterous creatures (add 1 to wound rolls or to the damage when targeting such targets) or your warband may be assault weapon specialists able to reroll attack and damage characteristics for assault weapons.

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