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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm LOLing at all the people complaining about having to roll for psychic powers instead of just picking them. Seriously, how can you have NOT been prepared for that? 5 new codexes in, and every single one of them that had psykers had to roll for their powers.

Its not "cinematic", its a game mechanic that was established in the main rule book. It screws over everybody, not just Eldar. If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well. Just be glad you have some good ones to roll, unlike most of the Chaos powers.

Eldar, even with all the new and shiny, still live and die by their psychic powers to nerf or take that away from an army still so dependent on them is devastating. Random was never good for any army from the start. And it really is the only thing claimed to be "Cinematic" in 6th. Cinematic was just a poor man's balancing act.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do the wraith constructs have fleet?

No. They pretty much have to get a serpent.

Illric is in the HQ department? Well, that isnt good. Thought maybe he'd be un upgrade for Pathfinders. Avatar and Spiritseerer for me - short term anyway.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Illric is in the HQ department? Well, that isnt good. Thought maybe he'd be un upgrade for Pathfinders. Avatar and Spiritseerer for me - short term anyway.

Blasphemer!

Illic in HQ is awesome for anyone who wants to do things like, y'know...

An Alaitoc Ranger contingent aiding the Imperial Guard, fighting alongside Corsair bands of Dark Eldar, etc.

Goresaw wrote:That stinks. So eldrad can end up with all those stupid witchfires when you just want doom and fortune.

D6Damager wrote:

Nvs wrote:

I think it's more shock than anything. People are used to Eldar being dreadful without fortune and guide so the thought of playing without them is scary. Guide isn't a big deal, but fortune potentially being gone is too much of a leap to theorycraft. I'm sure once people start actually playing the book they'll be fine. We may even see people playing without farseers at all. Unlikely of course, but we'll see.

I'm predicting that Spiritseers and Illic will be the new hotness in HQ selection now.

Spiritseers can't take jetbikes, which are almost certainly the best troops in the book. Since all the powers follow normal rulebook limitations and require LOS I expect you will only see Spiritseers in Wraith based foot lists. Illic is the basis for Ranger based lists, but is more likely to be abused to dump 10 D Scythe Wraithguard 1" away from the enemy with Infiltrate. Despite the loss of Warding and set powers Farseers are still probably the best TAC option, Mastery 3 for 100pts is very nice (considering they used to be 150 odd for Mastery 2).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm LOLing at all the people complaining about having to roll for psychic powers instead of just picking them. Seriously, how can you have NOT been prepared for that? 5 new codexes in, and every single one of them that had psykers had to roll for their powers.

Its not "cinematic", its a game mechanic that was established in the main rule book. It screws over everybody, not just Eldar. If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well. Just be glad you have some good ones to roll, unlike most of the Chaos powers.

I'm mostly in disbelief that people are complaining about how bad the Wave Serpents are when they're a better MBT than my Hammerheads. The transport capacity is just icing.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm LOLing at all the people complaining about having to roll for psychic powers instead of just picking them. Seriously, how can you have NOT been prepared for that? 5 new codexes in, and every single one of them that had psykers had to roll for their powers.

Its not "cinematic", its a game mechanic that was established in the main rule book. It screws over everybody, not just Eldar. If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well. Just be glad you have some good ones to roll, unlike most of the Chaos powers.

Last I checked Eldar are the most powerful race in psychic prowess, so with that in mind and the fact that all psychers have grown up learning them, people would argue that they should be allowed to pick them.

A counter argument is yes they lived their life studying certain powers, but we don't know who studied what (and by going through the fact that not everyone studies the same thing) and hence the randomness.

It is a matter of fluff and with that both arguments are viable. Seeing as how everyone is used to picking fortune and not having to roll for it is something we are going to have to get used to. Also restring where we can put warlocks is also a downer, but is more going into the Ultwe theme so I really can't complain there either.

RogueRegault wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm LOLing at all the people complaining about having to roll for psychic powers instead of just picking them. Seriously, how can you have NOT been prepared for that? 5 new codexes in, and every single one of them that had psykers had to roll for their powers.

Its not "cinematic", its a game mechanic that was established in the main rule book. It screws over everybody, not just Eldar. If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well. Just be glad you have some good ones to roll, unlike most of the Chaos powers.

I'm mostly in disbelief that people are complaining about how bad the Wave Serpents are when they're a better MBT than my Hammerheads. The transport capacity is just icing.

Er what? A twin linked Bright Lance/Scatter Laser/Starcannon is nowhere near as good as a Railgun or Ion Cannon, honestly the SMS you get as a secondary weapon is on par with the main gun of a Serpent. On top of that you get AV13 front and Markerlight support to ruin people.

RogueRegault wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm LOLing at all the people complaining about having to roll for psychic powers instead of just picking them. Seriously, how can you have NOT been prepared for that? 5 new codexes in, and every single one of them that had psykers had to roll for their powers.

Its not "cinematic", its a game mechanic that was established in the main rule book. It screws over everybody, not just Eldar. If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well. Just be glad you have some good ones to roll, unlike most of the Chaos powers.

I'm mostly in disbelief that people are complaining about how bad the Wave Serpents are when they're a better MBT than my Hammerheads. The transport capacity is just icing.

Yeah, I've always felt that if you look at the Wave Serpent as a Transport, and it falls short.
Look at it as a Tank that you can take what... 12 of that can be equipped for any task you care to ask, they're pretty freaking awesome!
(In the 'old' codex, it was 14. I would be tempted to make a list of maxed out Wave Serpents as a 'tank company' for giggles.)

So...we'd be able to cast from inside transports now. At least at the transport and the occupants.

Yay for a fortuned Wave serpent with a 4+ coversave, that simply cannot be penned.

So i'm cautiously excited about the entire codex so far.

While I wish we got some skyfire and interceptor (sersiously, did they just give it ALL to Tau?), it looks good. Not different enough from the old codex however, which is what worries me.

Dissappointed with the wraithknight and crimson hunter. To get any relyable anti air (mainly for against IG, i'll have to take a farseer and actively HOPE for scriers gaze). The runes of fate powers look fun however. Eldrad is still a boss.

Bright Lance Walkers will take care of my anti tank. And then they can run behind cover. Swooping Hawks got a nice buff, but I was really hoping they'd get some way to attack flyers. We got the obligatory flyer, but nothing that is really NEW to combat them. Giving the guys with missle launchers the option to take AA missles. Good stuff. Genius.

Fast attack looks to be the crowded spot this time around. Spears, Hawks, Spiders, Hutners, even VYPERS vying to be taken. My initial tourney lists will have 2 hunters and some hawks. Because I love the models for both.

I like the buff to guardians. I was fielding 2-3 units in the old dex. Now they're actually justified.

My main qualm is that the new stuff is all too expensive. AA for that many points? A wraithknight is HOW much? 160 points for Av10?

My local meta is running a 2500 point tournament in a couple of months. Maybe then, I will get to field all the stuff I want to.

As more and more information continues to be posted I have come to the conclusion that whoever wrote the Codex has not bothered to read the main rulebook or doesn't care.

Tho I might discover that I'm wrong once I get the book I'm really distressed not because units are being changed or nerfed but rather because they are receiving rules and equipment that are moot for their intended role.

Wraithknights with 4 weapons when they can only fire 2 per MC rules and +1 to S on a MC that it's already S 10. Precision shot on a unit that already has precision shot due to the weapon they use. Twinlink weapons on BS 5 exarchs...

I'm disliking this codex so far, again not because it nerfs or changes things but because apparently the changes were made just for the shake of changing stuff or as people say cinematics.

M.

It's a Phil Kelly book.

Does that mean that he is so ignorant of the main rules he writes codexes for or that he makes up stuff as he goes?

M.

Belly wrote:


My main qualm is that the new stuff is all too expensive. AA for that many points? A wraithknight is HOW much? 160 points for Av10?

compare the point cost of all the weapons on the vehicles before 6th and now compare them after. You will find that they didn't go up all that much. If anything it is going by the fluff in saying that we can't field as many people because we know that our race is dying, meaning more expensive the unit= less things we can field. Nothing to complain over other than they are following the fluff.

It means that Phil Kelly is Phil Kelly.

He is one of the major driving forces behind "cinematicity".

The Wraithknight being able to equip 4 guns when it can only fire 2 is really strange.

Not as bad as the mess that Burning Chariot was, but still hard to figure why it was done that way.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It means that Phil Kelly is Phil Kelly.

He is one of the major driving forces behind "cinematicity".

So we are stuck with writers that are going to make silly rules just for the shake of it.
"Hey sniper rifles are cinematic, let's give all Dreadnoughts one and call it a day"
I would like a little bit more of thought in my army rules, thanks.

M.

 Eldarain wrote:
The Wraithknight being able to equip 4 guns when it can only fire 2 is really strange.

Not as bad as the mess that Burning Chariot was, but still hard to figure why it was done that way.

Maybe our friend with the codex can shed light on the subject. *looks over in his direction*

The Wraithlord could always have been equipped that way. It is just following an established trend.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It means that Phil Kelly is Phil Kelly.

He is one of the major driving forces behind "cinematicity".

So we are stuck with writers that are going to make silly rules just for the shake of it.
"Hey sniper rifles are cinematic, let's give all Dreadnoughts one and call it a day"
I would like a little bit more of thought in my army rules, thanks.

M.

Something tells me that if the Wraithknight doesn't sell well enough it will get a FAQ that allows it to fire 4 weapons at once due to spirit stone technology. Remember, GW really has no sales department nor does it have a marketing department. The writers + modelers are the primary sales people, which is why I find it highly confusing why the Wraithknight doesn't have amazing rules considering the new wraithguard do.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's a Phil Kelly book.

This. I really don't understand the Phil Kelly love. His codexes always lead to Spam armies since there is always horrible internal balance.

Space Wolves = Missile launcher Spam

Dark Eldar = Venom Spam

Chaos Space Marines = Heldrake Spam plus pick either plaguemarines or noisemarine Spam.

Chaos Daemons = Flying Monstrous Creature Spam aka "Flying Circus".

For Eldar I'm predicting jetbike and wraith____s Spam.

But in the WL case it was 2 template weapons for close range anti-infantry work and up to 2 ranged weapons for AT. The WK doesn't.
I mean a mix of 2 of the new WG template weapons plus 2 "big" cannons would have made sense but as is nobody in their right mind will give the WK secondary weapons that can't fire.

M.

GTKA666 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
The Wraithknight being able to equip 4 guns when it can only fire 2 is really strange.

Not as bad as the mess that Burning Chariot was, but still hard to figure why it was done that way.

Maybe our friend with the codex can shed light on the subject. *looks over in his direction*

There is nothing at all on the Wraithknight in the codex that allows it to fire more than 2 weapons as per MC rules. You're spending points for (dubious) versatility.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well.

Uh, your decision to choose the Chaos God who supports randomness as an example might not have been the best one I understand that Tzeentch is all psyker but he's also seen as the god of randomness because everything must change, even if it's against his benefit.

 felixander wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
If an immortal greater daemon of Tzeentch has to randomly determine powers, an Eldar farseer and warlock should have to as well.

Uh, your decision to choose the Chaos God who supports randomness as an example might not have been the best one I understand that Tzeentch is all psyker but he's also seen as the god of randomness because everything must change, even if it's against his benefit.

Or.. could always just not defend the stupidity that is random psychic powers and go back to what every other book did prior to 6th edition.. you pick them. The randomness in this edition is already beyond the level of absurdity that is normally expected. Add on top of that silly abilities like Assassin and Disarm which add even MORE random rolls to the game.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It means that Phil Kelly is Phil Kelly.

He is one of the major driving forces behind "cinematicity".

So we are stuck with writers that are going to make silly rules just for the shake of it.
"Hey sniper rifles are cinematic, let's give all Dreadnoughts one and call it a day"
I would like a little bit more of thought in my army rules, thanks.

M.

Something tells me that if the Wraithknight doesn't sell well enough it will get a FAQ that allows it to fire 4 weapons at once due to spirit stone technology. Remember, GW really has no sales department nor does it have a marketing department. The writers + modelers are the primary sales people, which is why I find it highly confusing why the Wraithknight doesn't have amazing rules considering the new wraithguard do.

They better get a handle on things quick then or they'll be edged out by PP.

GW needs to go back to real balance instead of 'cinematics', they need to balance the game around a smaller point value so people don't need to choose between college and toy soldiers, and they need to have a team of people work on their rules instead of deligating one writer to one book. I really wish this game was tournament caliber but it's simply not. Not sure it ever was. There are ways to make competitive and balanced rules and still be fun.

One of the first things people ask these days is who's writing their book. If it's Ward they'll know they'll have a top tier book with crap stories. If it's kelly they know they'll have a bottom tier book with no versatility but intact background. Vetock is in the middle but more heavily inspired by Ward it seems.

It's bad when a book isn't even officially released and people are begging for the helldrake treatment.

 Kirasu wrote:

Or.. could always just not defend the stupidity that is random psychic powers and go back to what every other book did prior to 6th edition.. you pick them. The randomness in this edition is already beyond the level of absurdity that is normally expected. Add on top of that silly abilities like Assassin and Disarm which add even MORE random rolls to the game.

I find the randomness is just an excuse for sloppy design and avoidance of costing things appropriately. Random warlord traits, random terrain effects, random psychic powers, etc... When too much is random, it throws planning out the window.

As for the Wraithknight issue, the problem is GW's studio playtesting, where I think the designers go by what they intended rather than what is written. Wasn't that the case for the Tyranid Mawloc when it was first released with rules that as written could not actually do what the designers intended? Without enough outside sources and opinions to playtest and break the system, they don't pick up on loopholes big enough to drive a truck through.

If it is true the Wraithknight can only fire 2 weapons, then paying points for all its other weapon options is utterly pointless. Either 2 arm weapons and no shoulder, or 1 arm + 1 shoulder + the shield then. Anything else would be paying for weapons that cannot be fired.

Nvs wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It means that Phil Kelly is Phil Kelly.

He is one of the major driving forces behind "cinematicity".

So we are stuck with writers that are going to make silly rules just for the shake of it.
"Hey sniper rifles are cinematic, let's give all Dreadnoughts one and call it a day"
I would like a little bit more of thought in my army rules, thanks.

M.

Something tells me that if the Wraithknight doesn't sell well enough it will get a FAQ that allows it to fire 4 weapons at once due to spirit stone technology. Remember, GW really has no sales department nor does it have a marketing department. The writers + modelers are the primary sales people, which is why I find it highly confusing why the Wraithknight doesn't have amazing rules considering the new wraithguard do.

They better get a handle on things quick then or they'll be edged out by PP.

GW needs to go back to real balance instead of 'cinematics', they need to balance the game around a smaller point value so people don't need to choose between college and toy soldiers, and they need to have a team of people work on their rules instead of deligating one writer to one book. I really wish this game was tournament caliber but it's simply not. Not sure it ever was. There are ways to make competitive and balanced rules and still be fun.

One of the first things people ask these days is who's writing their book. If it's Ward they'll know they'll have a top tier book with crap stories. If it's kelly they know they'll have a bottom tier book with no versatility but intact background. Vetock is in the middle but more heavily inspired by Ward it seems.

It's bad when a book isn't even officially released and people are begging for the helldrake treatment.

LOL, GW never had or cared about "balance". They care about selling minis. As long as the investors are seeing profits, that's all that matters. To GW, that is. As for getting beat out by PP, I would laugh but I don't think that will happen. At least the 40K players I know think WarmaHordes is a stupid game with crappy models. But, to each their own.

GTKA666 wrote:

Belly wrote:


My main qualm is that the new stuff is all too expensive. AA for that many points? A wraithknight is HOW much? 160 points for Av10?

compare the point cost of all the weapons on the vehicles before 6th and now compare them after. You will find that they didn't go up all that much. If anything it is going by the fluff in saying that we can't field as many people because we know that our race is dying, meaning more expensive the unit= less things we can field. Nothing to complain over other than they are following the fluff.

No, I get the way they've structured weapon prices. That's fine. I LIKE that for anything that's not anti-air. But an EML is 30 points to put one on a war walker with flakk missles. Put on a SL for TL, and you're looking an 95 points EACH, which is about the best AA we've got. (That isn't the Crimson hunter). My biggest qualm with the old codex was a complete lack of Anti air. Now, I can buy a single flakk missle launcher for 30 points. And put it on a 60 point open topped Av10 model. Or pay 160 points for a crimson hunter, and pray I get to go second.

Not only that, but dragons lost crack shot and tank hunters, for quadgunning. The best AA we can likely use is a squad of reapers on a quadgun. And that's just terrible. I'll probably just end up using SL/BL war walkers, and praying for 6's.

I like most of the changes made. But I just can't go past the same glaring deficiencies the old codex had.

@Belly. Remember that all powers require LOS unless stated otherwise now, so yes you can cast from inside a transport, but not on anything other than the transport (which is better than the stupid FAQ ruling, but not as good as last edition).

The Wraithknight is still 2 BS4 S10 AP2 shots that will likely fire the entire game (you are fast enough to avoid things you don't want to fight, and unless you walk into rapid fire Plasma range of an entire army you should live through most games) and it has reasonable combat punch as well (has to pick its fights it doesn't care about power weapons so much as it cares about high S). If the 4 weapons thing gets fixed then it will be the go to heavy support anti tank option, until then its still usable. I completely agree about the playtesting thing, there is literally no reason to ever buy extra weapons you can never fire. I guess its possible that at some point in development it was a walker (vehicle) as well, which would have let it fire everything. I'm surprised both it and the Wraithlord didn't get something in this regard, since the Wraithlord used to have a special rule letting it fire more weapons anyway (to put it on par with Dreads at the time).

At the moment I am thinking just run a single Crimson Hunter and pick your targets. The only truely bad matchup 1 v 1 is the Vendetta, against Drakes you can Vector Dance near your edge to avoid the Vector Strike alpha. It will do terribly against Necron fliers because they will always outnumber you, but has a pretty good chance of one shotting any flyer including the Stormraven which is worth bringing imo.

How did Hawks get a buff? Sure they are cheaper, but they are otherwise almost identical from what I can see. They don't scatter, but they have terrible damage output and a 4+ save - they are outclassed completely by Spiders.

Heavy is FAR more crowed than Fast, both in total number of options and viable options. Fast has the fliers (both hit hard in their specific role), Spiders and maybe Vypers as good options. In heavy literally everything is a viable options imo, Reapers are more flexible (anti tank as well as anti MEQ), Prism and Night Spinner got better, Wraithlord got better, Wraithknight is expensive but viable (will be better if they fix the too many weapons issue), Walkers are still fragile but good and even the Support weapons seem ok given they are 90pts for 3.

Well the buff across the board to WS4/BS4/I5 accounts for most of the price increases, but they generally aren't that bad. The units which stand out as first choice options are the ones which have gotten better with a price drop, like Jetbikes and Warp Spiders.